average step 1 scores for each field?

[pj_seattle]

Anyone know where to find the average step 1 scores of students matching in each field? Just trying to figure out where I stand, and satisfy my curiosity more than anything. Thanks.

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[ttumed]

It'd be hard to post such a thing since these numbers are arbitrary at best.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

in 2002, the average for all fields ranged from 207-218, with ortho being the highest. the SD was about 20 for each.

so what does this tell you? not much right?

so don't worry. any score between 187-240 will suffice.

 

[Long Dong]

in 2002, the average for all fields ranged from 207-218, with ortho being the highest.

Where did you get this info from? I didn't know ortho had that many super stars, I always thought derm or plastics had the highest #s.

 

[bigfrank]

in 2002, the average for all fields ranged from 207-218, with ortho being the highest. the SD was about 20 for each.

so what does this tell you? not much right?

so don't worry. any score between 187-240 will suffice.

This is ridiculously bad advice. The averarage for the SF Match specialties is always released to applicants, and find their way into PDF formats onto SDN. Every year, ENT and NS are in the 235-range, with UNMATCHED averages around your quote of 218. And these 2 fields are nowhere near as competitive as Derm and probably even Rad Onc.

As for NRMP specialties (of which ENT is now one), these numbers are not released. Your averages probably work for Gas and EM.

 

[goooooober]

What about general surgery? If I am interested in a very good program like Johns Hopkins or somewhere else, what is the score that I should apply with? Any ideas?

 

[VincentAdultman]

What about general surgery? If I am interested in a very good program like Johns Hopkins or somewhere else, what is the score that I should apply with? Any ideas?

I think if you have a 280 or up you'll be in good shape.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

This is ridiculously bad advice. The averarage for the SF Match specialties is always released to applicants, and find their way into PDF formats onto SDN. Every year, ENT and NS are in the 235-range, with UNMATCHED averages around your quote of 218. And these 2 fields are nowhere near as competitive as Derm and probably even Rad Onc.

As for NRMP specialties (of which ENT is now one), these numbers are not released. Your averages probably work for Gas and EM.

no. it's not advice at all. the point of my post is that I can't extract any useful information from the averages. They're just ranges. each field has a range of scores. Does ENT only have a narrow peak between 230-240?

also, this data doesn't differentiate the competitive from the noncompetitive residencies.

 

[automaton]

better info could be had by going to your school's counselor and checking out the stats from your school. it should be readily available. just don't do anything stupid and post it on sdn, in case you have a photographic memory and nothing better to do.

 

[TY06]

bump!

ob/gyn?
anesthesiology?
internal medicine?

 

[ndspider]

Bump.

 

[exmike]

Average scores that I am sure of. Lets start a list.

ENT 236
Neurosurgery 235
Ophthalmology 230

 

[juddson]

Average scores that I am sure of. Lets start a list.

ENT 236
Neurosurgery 235
Ophthalmology 230

These scores strike me as fairly low. I thought all of these fields wanted people in the mid to high 240's.

Judd

 

[surgwannabe]

These scores strike me as fairly low. I thought all of these fields wanted people in the mid to high 240's.

Judd

Although it varies among the fields, in addition to your Step 1 score, each residency program usually looks at your entire application. You might have some additional factors that convince the program director that you will be a great asset to the program. For example, in the field of neurosurg, a research oriented specialty, an MD/PhD who scores a 230 on step 1 could beat out an MD applicant who scores a 240. As long as your score is within a "defined" range, I think you will have a good chance getting a spot in one of these fields, provided everything else about you is spotless!

 

[Bioengineer]

From Wikipedia:
"The most competitive specialties as of Jan 2006 in the U.S.A.:

Most difficult to obtain residencies: Radiation oncology, urology, dermatology, neurological surgery (On average 95th percentile or better)

Very Difficult to obtain residencies: Ophthalmology, radiology, ear nose and throat (ENT), orthopedics, General Surgery, anesthesia (On average 75th percentile or better)

After the above specialties, the competition drops dramatically and the number of available training positions increases greatly."

 

[juddson]

From Wikipedia:
"The most competitive specialties as of Jan 2006 in the U.S.A.:

Most difficult to obtain residencies: Radiation oncology, urology, dermatology, neurological surgery (On average 95th percentile or better)

Very Difficult to obtain residencies: Ophthalmology, radiology, ear nose and throat (ENT), orthopedics, General Surgery, anesthesia (On average 75th percentile or better)

After the above specialties, the competition drops dramatically and the number of available training positions increases greatly."

How do they come up with the percentiles? To what do these percentiles refer? The USMLE does not release percentiles (the second number after your three digit score is NOT a percentile).

Judd

 

[(nicedream)]

How do they come up with the percentiles? To what do these percentiles refer? The USMLE does not release percentiles (the second number after your three digit score is NOT a percentile).

Judd

Calculate percentile from average and SD.

 

[exmike]

From Wikipedia:
"The most competitive specialties as of Jan 2006 in the U.S.A.:

Most difficult to obtain residencies: Radiation oncology, urology, dermatology, neurological surgery (On average 95th percentile or better)

Very Difficult to obtain residencies: Ophthalmology, radiology, ear nose and throat (ENT), orthopedics, General Surgery, anesthesia (On average 75th percentile or better)

After the above specialties, the competition drops dramatically and the number of available training positions increases greatly."

ANy sources from wikipedia? The averages I posted are straight from the Match Results PDF's published by the match.

 

[exmike]

These scores strike me as fairly low. I thought all of these fields wanted people in the mid to high 240's.

Judd

Judd, remember there are all sorts of quality of programs for each field. Location matterse too. If you want to get into ENT in Los Angeles at UCLA, I'm sure a 236 will not cut it. On the other hand, if you want to get into ENT in South Dakota at podunk community hospital, 236 might be pretty decent.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

Judd, remember there are all sorts of quality of programs for each field. Location matterse too. If you want to get into ENT in Los Angeles at UCLA, I'm sure a 236 will not cut it. On the other hand, if you want to get into ENT in South Dakota at podunk community hospital, 236 might be pretty decent.

and how big of a difference does it make in the end really?
they're both still ENT docs and they both will make a crapload of money, though the LA doc will make a little more.

 

[exmike]

and how big of a difference does it make in the end really?
they're both still ENT docs and they both will make a crapload of money, though the LA doc will make a little more.

Did i say it made a difference? I just provided an explanation for why the average score wasnt as high as Judd expected. Also, the ENT in LA will make less. In general, the less metro, the more you make because there is greater demand to work in metro areas (thus lower salaries).

 

[juddson]

Judd, remember there are all sorts of quality of programs for each field. Location matterse too. If you want to get into ENT in Los Angeles at UCLA, I'm sure a 236 will not cut it. On the other hand, if you want to get into ENT in South Dakota at podunk community hospital, 236 might be pretty decent.

You make a good point, of course. But still an average is an average. And let's face it, the preponderance of ENT, Optho and (especially) neurosurgery programs will be in large cities in and around accademic centers. If your numbers are correct, somebody with a 236 (all else being equal) ought to have a good chance of matching into ENT in an "average" program - maybe not UCLA, but still better than South Dakota Community Medical Center (for instance).

Can you explain a bit more about the PDF from the match you were talking about? Where do I find that?

Judd

 

[exmike]

You make a good point, of course. But still an average is an average. And let's face it, the preponderance of ENT, Optho and (especially) neurosurgery programs will be in large cities in and around accademic centers. If your numbers are correct, somebody with a 236 (all else being equal) ought to have a good chance of matching into ENT in an "average" program - maybe not UCLA, but still better than South Dakota Community Medical Center (for instance).

Can you explain a bit more about the PDF from the match you were talking about? Where do I find that?

Judd

i dont have them, you have to dig through these forums and other non SDN forums. The ophtho PDF is floating around the ophtho forum. It is for sure 230 avg.

 

[BlackNDecker]

From Wikipedia:
"The most competitive specialties as of Jan 2006 in the U.S.A.:

Most difficult to obtain residencies: Radiation oncology, urology, dermatology, neurological surgery (On average 95th percentile or better)

Very Difficult to obtain residencies: Ophthalmology, radiology, ear nose and throat (ENT), orthopedics, General Surgery, anesthesia (On average 75th percentile or better)

After the above specialties, the competition drops dramatically and the number of available training positions increases greatly."

They are obviously misinterpreting the 2 digit score. The calculated 95th percentile is a 260 (2 SD above the mean). Thus, according to the above, the avg. matched score would be a ridiculously high 260

On the otherhand, and more correctly, a 95 two digit score is somewhere around a 235, which just so happens to be the avg. step 1 score for neurosurgery.

In other words, even the thread from wikpedia is error prone. Your school can provide much much more accurate info. Anyone can post on Wikpedia...

 

[threepeas]

our dean of student affairs advises us that step 1 scores get you interviews. your interview + the rest of your application determines your final acceptance. atleast that's how he told to think about. there are peeps who got 260s, but only got satisfactories in 3rd yr(no H or HP) and didnt match, where as those with lower step 1s but excellent 3rd yr scores matched well. it is a bit of a balance. of course the best scenario is high step 1 and MS3 grades.

so the step 1 averages posted thus far in various specialities are what it takes to get your foot in the door and get an interview but not necessarily guarantee anything else.

 

[exmike]

They are obviously misinterpreting the 2 digit score. The calculated 95th percentile is a 260 (2 SD above the mean). Thus, according to the above, the avg. matched score would be a ridiculously high 260

On the otherhand, and more correctly, a 95 two digit score is somewhere around a 235, which just so happens to be the avg. step 1 score for neurosurgery.

In other words, even the thread from wikpedia is error prone. Your school can provide much much more accurate info. Anyone can post on Wikpedia...

actually, a 260 is 97th percentile
and 2SD is supposed to be 98.5th percentile.

 

[emily69]

our dean of student affairs advises us that step 1 scores get you interviews. your interview + the rest of your application determines your final acceptance. atleast that's how he told to think about. there are peeps who got 260s, but only got satisfactories in 3rd yr(no H or HP) and didnt match, where as those with lower step 1s but excellent 3rd yr scores matched well. it is a bit of a balance. of course the best scenario is high step 1 and MS3 grades.

so the step 1 averages posted thus far in various specialities are what it takes to get your foot in the door and get an interview but not necessarily guarantee anything else.

well stated. as a corollary to the above, certain score ranges will basically disqualify you from getting an interview in particular competitive programs and specialties. I see the step 1 score as a means to prevent yourself from getting disqualified at the interview stage. (b/c even if you're an otherwise great candidate, a crappy score will put the application in the wastebasket).

 

[inshanesworld]

I am sure that it was an oversight but i thought that 2 SD on either side of the mean in a NORMAL (unskewed) Gaussian distribution contains 95% of the measured values (it is actually 95.44% but who is counting?). Thus the remaining 5% is outside of that. Thus the upper outliers would be 2.5% and that would mean that the actual 2SD percentile rank is 97.5th not 98.5th.

On a side note. As much as people would like to give you the mean and the SD THIS YEAR (2006) it is quite misleading. This because the all values for this year have not been recorded (meaning all test have not been graded or even taken yet). This is why they have only publicly posted them for 2004. It takes time to run the regressions, etc. Additionally, per the USMLE the tests are PRE-washed statistically and THEN assigned the three digit score NOT the other way round. This is so the three digit score means the same thing (carries the same wait, joy, pain, residency power, etc) every year. And thus you can compare applicants equally who took the test in different years. (bob's 235 in 2004 is the same as Jane's 235 in 2010).

As such, if the distribution were to remain gaussian the mean and SD would be the SAME every year. Now you may say that does not make sense because some years there could be smarter or dumber people who would get more high or low scores than normal and move the mean. (this is possible as there is nothing that prevents everyone from receiving a score of 250). However, the curve would then no longer be normal but would be non-normal or skewed and all of the fun easy statistical equations like 2SD = 95.44% would NOT, NOT apply. SD is a terrible estimator of scale in a non-normal distribution. You cannot use it instead you must use MAD (median absolute deviation) or something similar and everything becomes scaled. In fact the whole percentile thing would be complete bupkis. This is my take on it based on all of the information I have read.

So the moral of this conviluted story is....anyone who says they know the shape of this years distribution is jumping the gun. The mean and SD should be the same every year and if they are not then you cannot use some simplistic SD based percentile rank anyhow. Finally, who even cares! You did your best, you faced the test and won! Your positive, successful, confident attitude will take you much farther in this world than your worries about where you are in the line.

This link is always helpful and just like the questions on step 1 you will get the right answers if you don't read too much into it.

http://www.usmle.org/FAQs/faqusmlescores.htm

Good luck everyone!!

 

[BlackNDecker]

I am sure that it was an oversight but 2 SD on either side of the mean in a NORMAL (unskewed) Gaussian distribution contains 95% of the measured values (it is actually 95.44% but who is counting?). Thus the remaining 5% is outside of that. Thus the upper outliers would be 2.5% and that would mean that the actual 2SD percentile rank is 97.5% not 98.5%.

I never learned stats like I should have

But I agree with the others, step score is for the interview invitation...everything else is responsible for matching. Although, a jackass with a 99 could probably match somewhere in anything, but the same probably isn't true for a saint with a 190.

 

[exmike]

I am sure that it was an oversight but i thought that 2 SD on either side of the mean in a NORMAL (unskewed) Gaussian distribution contains 95% of the measured values (it is actually 95.44% but who is counting?). Thus the remaining 5% is outside of that. Thus the upper outliers would be 2.5% and that would mean that the actual 2SD percentile rank is 97.5th not 98.5th.
http://www.usmle.org/FAQs/faqusmlescores.htm

Good luck everyone!!

oops, yes it was a typo.

 

[tomatoattack]

Is the test graded on a bell curve? If so:

Because one standard deviation away from the mean is approximately the 70th percentile. That means you have to have a 240 (mean is 217 and SD is 23) to get the 70th percentile. Two standard deviations away would be a 263, which would be the 95th percentile.

According to this thread the most competitive residicies had average board scores around the 230's, which would be less that even the 70th percentile. So are the scores just a bunch higher this year or what?

I was also under the impression that stuff like rad onc, derm, and neurosurg required like 80 to the 85th percentile and up, which would be more like 250 and up, as opposed to the mid 230's given.

Looks like a 230 may not be as competitive this year for the real topgun stuff, because a lot of the numbers that are being thrown around seem to be opperating under the assumption that the average is 215 and the standard deviation as 15, but that isn't the reality anymore.

 

[DHMO]

Is the test graded on a bell curve? If so:

Because one standard deviation away from the mean is approximately the 70th percentile. That means you have to have a 240 (mean is 217 and SD is 23) to get the 70th percentile. Two standard deviations away would be a 263, which would be the 95th percentile.

According to this thread the most competitive residicies had average board scores around the 230's, which would be less that even the 70th percentile. So are the scores just a bunch higher this year or what?

I was also under the impression that stuff like rad onc, derm, and neurosurg required like 80 to the 85th percentile and up, which would be more like 250 and up, as opposed to the mid 230's given.

Looks like a 230 may not be as competitive this year for the real topgun stuff, because a lot of the numbers that are being thrown around seem to be opperating under the assumption that the average is 215 and the standard deviation as 15, but that isn't the reality anymore.

Your numbers are a bit off (see the above discussion). About 68% of scores fall within 1 SD of the mean, which leaves 14% above, and 14% below that range. So, 1 SD above the mean is actually 86th%ile, not 70th. Similary, 95% of scores fall within 2 SD of the mean, so 2SD above the mean is the 97.5th %ile.

 

[39094]

Is the test graded on a bell curve? If so:

Because one standard deviation away from the mean is approximately the 70th percentile. That means you have to have a 240 (mean is 217 and SD is 23) to get the 70th percentile. Two standard deviations away would be a 263, which would be the 95th percentile.

According to this thread the most competitive residicies had average board scores around the 230's, which would be less that even the 70th percentile. So are the scores just a bunch higher this year or what?

I was also under the impression that stuff like rad onc, derm, and neurosurg required like 80 to the 85th percentile and up, which would be more like 250 and up, as opposed to the mid 230's given.

Looks like a 230 may not be as competitive this year for the real topgun stuff, because a lot of the numbers that are being thrown around seem to be opperating under the assumption that the average is 215 and the standard deviation as 15, but that isn't the reality anymore.

Keep in mind that though it isn't quite as random as the med school application process, residency applications also look at the "big picture." There's more than a few people that match into Rad. Onc. or Derm each year with 180's and 190's because either they are "legacy" candidates or have some amazing back story that wows the program. This is then offset by people scoring higher resulting in a lower appearing average.

So if you spent 15 years as the only doc in some African village or happen to be the child of the hospital president you're probably set regardless, otherwise you'd better be shooting for higher than the average for whatever residency you're going for.

 

[tomatoattack]

Thanks for correction I am now at least a little less confused (and still need to review how things like bell curves work).

I realize that my numbers are off, but I am I correct in assuming that the numbers that have been quoted earlier in this thread are a little on the low side due to the fact that the average so far this year is a little higher and the standard deviation a little wider than in previous year or years?

Also since most people take their test in the summer months, is it safe to assume that the averages that we are being seen reported now are going to approximate whatever the final average and SD happen to be for this year?

 

[ghip]

So the moral of this conviluted story is....anyone who says they know the shape of this years distribution is jumping the gun. The mean and SD should be the same every year and if they are not then you cannot use some simplistic SD based percentile rank anyhow. Finally, who even cares! You did your best, you faced the test and won! Your positive, successful, confident attitude will take you much farther in this world than your worries about where you are in the line.

This link is always helpful and just like the questions on step 1 you will get the right answers if you don't read too much into it.

http://www.usmle.org/FAQs/faqusmlescores.htm

Good luck everyone!!

Thank you. Now if only people would read your post.

 

[Long Dong]

ANy sources from wikipedia? The averages I posted are straight from the Match Results PDF's published by the match.

Can u provide a link since I have classmates that r interested in these fields.

 

[(nicedream)]

Your numbers are a bit off (see the above discussion). About 68% of scores fall within 1 SD of the mean, which leaves 14% above, and 14% below that range. So, 1 SD above the mean is actually 86th%ile, not 70th. Similary, 95% of scores fall within 2 SD of the mean, so 2SD above the mean is the 97.5th %ile.

Actually your numbers are off. 16% are above and below 1 SD, not 14. 1 SD is 84th % not 86th.

 

[jimmyneutron]

what percentile is a half standard deviation?

 

[vtucci]

When I went to the American College of Emergency Physician Conference, Dr, Mattu, residency director from UMaryland, told students that for EM a score 220 and above would put you in really good position for the match and 200-220 won't cause you that many problems.