aversion therapy?

[The2abraxis]

So i was atching a movie and it made me think of aversion therapy (mainly because it had it in it; I'll let you guess which one ). I have a few questions if any one knows about it:

- Is there evidence that this works/is effective?

and also

- Can an aversion wear off?

It seems like an aversion (I believe I had them to certain foods before, but they wore off) can wear off if you understand where the discomfort is coming from, and if it doesn't apply to the situation at hand (it may not work right away, but after a few tries, could it work??).

Ex: If someone ate steak for 30 years and never got sick, then suddenly had a bad piece of meat, they may develop an aversion. Does this aversion stick forever? It seems like it could be "logiced" away (understanding that it was a rare occurance that the meat was bad, and that before one had it for a long time but never got sick). Am I going through some faulty reasoning?

Sorry for all the paranethesis as well 😀

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[JockNerd]

So i was atching a movie and it made me think of aversion therapy (mainly because it had it in it; I'll let you guess which one ). I have a few questions if any one knows about it:

- Is there evidence that this works/is effective?

and also

- Can an aversion wear off?

It seems like an aversion (I believe I had them to certain foods before, but they wore off) can wear off if you understand where the discomfort is coming from, and if it doesn't apply to the situation at hand (it may not work right away, but after a few tries, could it work??).

Ex: If someone ate steak for 30 years and never got sick, then suddenly had a bad piece of meat, they may develop an aversion. Does this aversion stick forever? It seems like it could be "logiced" away (understanding that it was a rare occurance that the meat was bad, and that before one had it for a long time but never got sick). Am I going through some faulty reasoning?

Sorry for all the paranethesis as well 😀

Everything I've read about it says aversion as in pain or shock is usually a crappy shaping mechanism. Learners stop caring about the aversive stimulus when the person administering it is absent and it doesn't teach replacement behaviors.

Conditioned taste aversion is a bit of a special case. It's a huge adaptive advantage to remember to never ever eat something that makes you sick and nauseous. It's much easier to acquire than other kinds of learning, often only taking one trial to teach a rat not to eat blue pellets, or whatever. You can look up "The Garcia Effect" to learn more.

I actually developed a conditioned taste aversion to sushi. I learned to make it, and ate a huge pile of it. I was sick to death for a week after (not because of the sushi; I felt the illness coming on before), including vomiting a such. For a year, I couldn't stand the sight of sushi. Actually, one time I glimpsed some sandwich rolls in the supermarket that kinda looked like sushi, and my stomach lurched. I doubt reasons could have fixed it, but I'm sure I could have exposured it out (never bothered though).

Edit: Hey, I just looked it up, and the wikipedia article on taste aversion has an example exactly like what happened to me! Neat!

 

[Ollie123]

I can second the taste aversion thing being pretty powerful.

Was never a big fan of Subway but I'd eat it when it was convenient. Until last year when I first discovered the wonders of kidney stones (sorry, tmi) shortly after eating there. There's obviously absolutely zero connection between those two events but now even walking by one gets my stomach churning.

Weirdness.

 

[cara susanna]

Just last April I got sick at a local Italian restaurant (not their fault, just bad timing). Now the very thought of Italian food makes me sick.

Which is sad because I LOVED Italian food.

 

[myelin]

Let's look at two theories of associative learning: classical conditioning (Pavlovian) and operant conditioning (Skinnerian).

Classical Conditioning:

For a food aversion, the odors of the food that made you sick (conditioned stimulus) are paired with poisioning (unconditioned stimulus) and getting sick (unconditioned response). Thus, the conditioned response is a feeling of sickness whenever the CS is present.

Also, do you recall "Little Albert?" He was conditioned to be scared of white fluffy objects. Initially, Albert was presented with a white rat to play with. Later, upon presentation of the rat, a loud banging noise was made behind Albert which startled him and made him cry. Eventually, presentation of the rat became a CS for fear and crying (CR). Interestingly, Albert generalized his fear to other white animals and objects.

In order to reverse this aversion, Albert would need to go through systematic desensitization training where continual presentations of the CS were paired without the US (banging noise). Unfortunately, Albert never went through desensitization training...this is one of the reasons why we have the IRB...

Operant Conditioning:

The behavior (R) results in an aversive stimulus (AS). This is known as positive punishment. You eat bad meat (R) and you throw up all night (AS). Since the behavior of eating meat is punished, the occurrance of meat eating behavior reduces.

In order to increase meat eating behavior again, you'd need to pair positive reinforcement (SR+) with meat eating behavior. That is, eat meat and don't get sick. Or, let's say you develop an aversion to taking tests because you get bad grades on them. In order to lift the aversion, you'd need to pair test taking behavior with good grades on tests (SR+) or something else that you find reinforcing.

So the answer to your question is yes, aversions can "wear off" with proper conditioning. Taste aversions, on the other hand, can take much longer to get rid of mostly because they carry deep roots in evolution for survival. Eating the wrong kind of berry won't give you another chance because it can kill you the first time you eat it.

 

[JockNerd]

Unfortunately, Albert never went through desensitization training...this is one of the reasons why we have the IRB...

Humorous side note: I had a textbook for my undergrad behaviorism class, written by the prof (a devout Skinnerian), that blamed Albert's parents for the lingering fears, saying that they "removed Albert from the experiment before the fear could be properly extinguished" or something close to that.

Just thought that was funny.

 

[myelin]

Humorous side note: I had a textbook for my undergrad behaviorism class, written by the prof (a devout Skinnerian), that blamed Albert's parents for the lingering fears, saying that they "removed Albert from the experiment before the fear could be properly extinguished" or something close to that.

Just thought that was funny.

So not only do they ruin their child, but blame the parents for not letting them extinguish the fear? I don't blame the parents one bit. Watson and colleagues made Albert fearful of most all things white. And they want more time with him?? Heck no!

 

[PsyDGrrrl]

Humorous side note: I had a textbook for my undergrad behaviorism class, written by the prof (a devout Skinnerian), that blamed Albert's parents for the lingering fears, saying that they "removed Albert from the experiment before the fear could be properly extinguished" or something close to that.

Just thought that was funny.

Wasn't Albert an orphan? I think they got him out of an orphanage...no parents to stop you from experimenting with those kids.

 

[JockNerd]

Wasn't Albert an orphan? I think they got him out of an orphanage...no parents to stop you from experimenting with those kids.

Then it said guardians or whatever.... I vividly remember the line itself.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Aversives are pretty commonly used in ABA therapy paradigms with children with Autism with a fair amount of success. I'm not sure where this "evidence" comes from in some of the other posts. Certainly anything can wear off, though spontaneous recovery would be likely based on animal models and ABA data I've seen.

 

[JockNerd]

Aversives are pretty commonly used in ABA therapy paradigms with children with Autism with a fair amount of success. I'm not sure where this "evidence" comes from in some of the other posts. Certainly anything can wear off, though spontaneous recovery would be likely based on animal models and ABA data I've seen.

From Myers' "Psychology," 1998:

"Does aversive conditioning work? In the short run it may. But, as we saw in Chapter 8 the problem is that cognition influences conditioning. People know that outside the therapist's office they can drink without fear of nausea or engage in sexually deviant behavior without fear of shock. The person's ability to discriminate between the aversive conditioning situation and all other situations can limit the treatment effectiveness." (p. 494)

He gives some examples of poor remission rates from anti-alcohol programs that tried to use aversive conditioning. This basically echoes what I read aout aversive conditioning every time I've read about it.

An ABA program you know of uses aversive conditioning? I used to work in an ABA group home, and using aversive conditioning there would have got your butt fired in about 5 seconds.

 

[The2abraxis]

Right that is what I was thinking (that it could wear off, either through conditioning or other ways). Thanks :-D

and I have read about aversions being linked to evolutionary adaptations. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Well, I'm not sure what you are defining as aversive, but most centers will incorporate wet wipes across the mouth for screaming as self-stim behaviors and other less than noxious aversives for a variety of behaviors that need to be decreased. It is not the mainstay of ABA, but it is not avoided at all costs either. I see where you are going with a more broad commentary on aversives, but I would be willing to guess that even where you worked previously, you were using them, they just weren't as dramatic as what most psychologists think of in terms of that approach. In addition, since many states require levels of accreditation for those who use these procedures, yours may simply have been unable to do so. In life, what happens is that when these techniques are needed, the centers who don't use them refer the patients out and tell the families they can no longer effectively treat that patient. I'm not advocating any particular orientation, I'm just answering the question. I think aversives are used quite a bit in general life as well and they certainly shape behavior. I think your point, if I am reading it correctly, is that the behavior you shape may not be in the direction you wanted/intended because of avoidant behaviors and context.

When I was in school, one of our professors who used to work with Skinner asked, "If your three years old is running toward the street are you going to use rewards to shape the behavior away, or spank his bottom. There may be times where the consequence necessitate a variety of approaches to conditioning."

 

[JockNerd]

When I was in school, one of our professors who used to work with Skinner asked, "If your three years old is running toward the street are you going to use rewards to shape the behavior away, or spank his bottom. There may be times where the consequence necessitate a variety of approaches to conditioning."

Oh, I certainly agree with this; little kids who don't have the processing power to grok reasoning and logic definitely need some physical aversion to guide behavior until they can understand more things. I don't think we disagree, it's just that my interpretation of the OP's question was that it was just about about physical pain or nausea and fully-functional adults.

I'm guessing the movie was Marathon Man.

 

[The2abraxis]

Oh, I certainly agree with this; little kids who don't have the processing power to grok reasoning and logic definitely need some physical aversion to guide behavior until they can understand more things. I don't think we disagree, it's just that my interpretation of the OP's question was that it was just about about physical pain or nausea and fully-functional adults.

I'm guessing the movie was Marathon Man.

A Clockwork Orange 😉

 

[myelin]

From Myers' "Psychology," 1998:

"Does aversive conditioning work? In the short run it may. But, as we saw in Chapter 8 the problem is that cognition influences conditioning. People know that outside the therapist's office they can drink without fear of nausea or engage in sexually deviant behavior without fear of shock. The person's ability to discriminate between the aversive conditioning situation and all other situations can limit the treatment effectiveness." (p. 494)

Is this cognition or a change in the schedule of reinforcement. From a behavioral perspective, couldn't we say that the individual is on a fixed interval schedule where reinforcement occurrs outside of the therapist's office? What about using Antabuse?

 

[GiantSteps]

A Clockwork Orange 😉

I can't believe that no one guest A Clockwork Orange! I am shocked since I know for a fact that many of you run around wearing white long under wear, white suspenders, jockstraps on the outside, black combat boots, black derby hats, and false eyelashes (I am talking about what people wear to their clinical psychology interviews)! No one ever gives any credit to those who influence them!

How can you ask if aversion therapy works after seeing poor Alex lose his ability to listen to Ludwig Van and no longer be able to take part in a bit of the old ultra-violence?

No one mentioned the famous psychodynamic argument against behavioral oriented therapy: symptom substitution. The idea is that since only the behavior is changed (assuming there is something underlying the problematic behavior - which behaviorists are not willing to concede but psychodynamic or maybe even cognitive people demand) the underlying problem manifests itself in a new problematic behavior. In other words, the behavior modification only serves as a bandage but the infection stays. Of course, I have no idea how or if anyone ever found any empirical suport of this argument but that is the argument.

 

[The2abraxis]

I can't believe that no one guest A Clockwork Orange! I am shocked since I know for a fact that many of you run around wearing white long under wear, white suspenders, jockstraps on the outside, black combat boots, black derby hats, and false eyelashes (I am talking about what people wear to their clinical psychology interviews)! No one ever gives any credit to those who influence them!

How can you ask if aversion therapy works after seeing poor Alex lose his ability to listen to Ludwig Van and no longer be able to take part in a bit of the old ultra-violence?

No one mentioned the famous psychodynamic argument against behavioral oriented therapy: symptom substitution. The idea is that since only the behavior is changed (assuming there is something underlying the problematic behavior - which behaviorists are not willing to concede but psychodynamic or maybe even cognitive people demand) the underlying problem manifests itself in a new problematic behavior. In other words, the behavior modification only serves as a bandage but the infection stays. Of course, I have no idea how or if anyone ever found any empirical suport of this argument but that is the argument.

well yes I saw it worked on him, I am hoping those arent the methods used :-D. Also the directors apparently REALLY hate Behaviorism and anything to do with conditioning and the sort, so they may be a little bias in their presentation 🙂