Globus P

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Roger that. I was focusing on the single point of pri-care that was made and may have missed the big picture. I am obviously speaking with an MS1 mentality and will most likely be echoing your views come this time next year.

I think the problem is that most applicants (including myself) didn't have a clue what to ask about 3rd and 4th years, and probably would not have know what was good or bad with the school's response. I was so focused on simply getting into medical school and "assumed" nearly all schools ran the same way, 3rd and 4th year.

If I knew then what I know now would I have done it any different? Still hard to say.....I'll answer that come rotations scheduling/match time.

I bow out, AZCOMDIDDY, and I sincerely thank you for your honest, open opinion.
 

LukeWhite

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I don't really think Kristin's obligated to justify her skepticism of an unproven point. Burden of proof's on the claimant, and all that.

Anyway, it's not that tough.

ABSTRACT:

We wanted to figure out whether AZCOM focuses disporportionately on turning out primary care docs compared to COMP. Judging by recent match lists, this seems not to be the case, or if it is, they're not doing a good job of keeping people out of specialties.

METHODOLOGY:

I defined primary care as the NHSC set: peds, ob/gyn, family practice, internal medicine, psychiatry. Tossed out traditional rotating internships, since they could go either way. Took the COMP match list someone posted awhile ago, and the 2003 AZCOM match list from the MWU intranet.

RESULTS:

COMP: 92/140 (66%) straight into primary care.
AZCOM: 56/133 (42%) "

Qualitatively, AZCOM's looks a lot more impressive. COMP's out-of-the-gate specializers generally did EM, some surgery, a bit of anesthesiology. AZCOM had plenty of anesthesiology, derm, exotica like otolaryngwhatever, etc.

DISCUSSION:

Whatever AZCOM's doing by focusing on primary care in its classwork and rotations, it seems to be working even for those not planning on going into primary care. Perhaps program directors are more interested than we thought in getting people who are excellent in the fundamentals and then training them in the speciality, rather than hand-holding research-paper-writing hospital-rotating gunners who have a great grasp of hospital politics but don't know how to draw blood.

To Neuro!
 
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VentdependenT

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Originally posted by lukealfredwhite

Whatever AZCOM's doing by focusing on primary care in its classwork and rotations, it seems to be working even for those not planning on going into primary care. Perhaps program directors are more interested than we thought in getting people who are excellent in the fundamentals and then training them in the speciality, rather than hand-holding research-paper-writing hospital-rotating gunners who have a great grasp of hospital politics but don't know how to draw blood.

Interesting. However, I don't believe our competitive matches aren't based on "the fundamentals" as much as they are on our individual efforts to land quality residencies. A good proportion of us put forth a ton of effort to work the system to achieve residencies in the field we are interested in.

We know it takes extra work as this attitude has been passed down from class to class. At least I believe so. The fact we get 6 months of our third year and our entire fourth year to travel out means we aren't stuck at some home hospital. We are out there auditioning, doing research months, and basically showing that DO's are regular ol' med students by busten our booties in allo places.....Down side is you can screw yourself very very hard if you don't take an active role in your education. 3rd year is a pain in the ass. Nuff said as I've beaten this horse into Alpo.
 

r90t

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I'll throw one other thing out that some of you may find interesting. Several of my allopathic intern friends were not allowed to do "away" rotations fromt their core teaching hospitals, or were allowed only late in 3rd year. This "pain in the butt" rotation actually gives you more opportunities to meet program directors, etc..

I was in the 3rd year seat, almost 4 years ago, bitching about crappy unorganized rotations, etc...and looking back, it is a very small concern in the big picture. The only people that I know who didn't get a residency in what they wanted were 3 people trying to get radiology. Very competative and if you aren't near the top of your class, you won't get osteo/allo. Everybody else, either specialty or primary care got their request on match days. Even when the school's mission statement was to turn out primary care physicians, it wasn't crammed down our throat.
 

LukeWhite

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Vent,

I'd mainly agree. I'm skeptical that AZCOM students work particularly harder than others, though obviously the ones who match into competitive specialties will on balance work harder than those that don't, and the rotation set-up does require a lot of personal involvement. But just no way to tell how hard we work relative to other schools.

The away rotations are, it seems to me, key. Whatever the reason people are getting these slots, they're getting them, and a lot of it surely has to do exactly with what you've said---from what this lowly MS1 has seen, being able to go to programs to see and be seen is a huge bonus.

Boomer,

The point in question isn't if AZCOM's curriculum is skewed to primary care. That, at least superficially, isn't really relevant. The concern is whether AZCOM's setup, whatever it is, disadvantages those who want to go into specialties. At least compared to one school (and I suspect many more) that isn't the case.

On a more subtle level, I'll stand by my original contention--having so much time in third year devoted to primary care and one-on-one work with physician's just can't help but build exceptional competence if one chooses preceptors well and involves oneself. If fourth year is spent showing off these skills to competitive programs and concentrating on learning sophisticated techniques instead of mastering the things most third years mainly see rather than do, stuck as they are behind layers of hospital-bound 4ths, interns, residents, then it seems to me that at least partially, it's precisely BECAUSE of this primary care focus that AZCOM seems to do so well in the match.

In any case, statistics>logic>anecdote. I think the claims that AZCOM focuses on primary care and generally involves a fair bit of travel and the claim that AZCOM churns out an unusual number of specialists can coexist pretty easily.
 

Adapt

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One thing that does appear to be clear is that at AZCOM, many times students have to do their rotations out of the state of Arizona for whatever reason.

On the other hand, at COMP you can do all your rotations in the same state and even in the same region in southern CA. To those with families and who don't want to move, this is ideal. Most of COMP graduates stay in CA while more than half of AZCOM graduates eventually leave Arizona. This to me is the biggest advantage that COMP has over AZCOM. Of course this is irrelevant if you don't care where you go.

The mission of COMP is to produce primary care physicians. Perhaps this is why there are more primary care docs coming from there.
 

r90t

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Look at the residencies offered in Arizona, the number of students that matriculate from Arizona, and the summer heat. The first 2 explain the reason why there is a lower amount of students staying in AZ when compared to the number of residency programs in California.

The 3rd baffles me! Why you would stay in Phoenix, when you can go to sunny San Diego.
 

LukeWhite

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As far as quality of reviews go, they are what they are. You certainly won't have better luck in a traditional system simply because something's 10 rather 20 on USNews rankings or because School X turns out a dozen dermatologists a year. I won't dispute that some people are probably unpleasantly surprised, but I have a hard time believing that those who are motivated and smart about their choices end up suffering from the setup. The stats look good to me; the anecdotes so far haven't been that specific or convincing.
 

azcomdiddy

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Originally posted by Boomer
By God, someone finally got it!!

How the hell are you going to "choose preceptors well"?

By reviews in clinical ed? Those mean nothing. I've worked with preceptors who had poor ratings that were great, and vice versa.

The POTENTIAL exists to have a great clinical education at AZCOM. The potential also exists to get screwed out of 60k over your last two years. Part of the reason that the ambulatory curriculum is so scrutinized is because none of your tuition is re-invested in it.

I shouldn't bitch. Mine hasn't been too bad. But I've been lucky a couple of times. Not all of my friends can say the same thing.....

I have been networking like hell with 3rd and 4th years fo figure out quality preceptors but its still very subjecitive. And like Vent' said, if you don't take an active role in this process, you will be screwed. This school doesn't provide anything for you. You have to do all the leg work on your own. That can be frustrating.
 
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LukeWhite

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I'm not sure there's much disagreement except on the issue of whether AZCOM's curriculum disadvantages people who want to specialize.

Again, looking at the match lists, it doesn't seem that's the case. I'm not too sure why it matters how many required primary care residencies you have to do--if it turns out a disproportionate number of specialists compared to other comparable schools, I don't see where the beef is.

Admittedly, we don't have stats from all the DO schools (though I'm sure they exist). But for the one the thread's comparing, AZCOM, despite your claim that it emphasizes primary care more, turns out MANY more specialists.

If AZCOM had a traditional setup and had those impressive results, my first inclination would be to chalk it up to admissions or didactics. When one sees such a large number of impressive matches in the one school that happens to have an ambulatory-based program, it's sensible to wonder whether the setup has something to do with it.

As for your argument that those who want to superspecialize have a limited chance to shine, again, I obviously have no first-hand experience with this (and I imagine you don't have much either). But my guess would be, again backed up by the match stats, that a program director for, say, neurosurgery, is less interested in seeing how competent a neurosurgeon you are than how good you are at the basics. I have a fantastically hard time believing that the student with two free months for neuro rotations is going to be much more competent while handing scalpels to the surgeon than the AZCOM student with one month. Again, the stats seem to back it up.

So to sum, as this seems to be going in circles, yeah, AZCOM requires a lot of primary care (though it's by no means unique--lots of DO schools, and some allopathic, have required rural rotations. Many schools have rural programs far more developed than AZCOM's). But given what we've seen, it doesnt' seem to have hurt any budding anesthesiologist's chances.

Obviously this can't be proven easily, but it seems to me the burden of proof rests on you. If you're convinced AZCOM's setup is a disadvantage for specialists, give us data. So far, the people complaining about it seem to have used the complaining as support. Not persuasive.

And yes, I will be going into FP. But it's nice to know that even were I not, or for some reason changed my mind, AZCOM has a setup that seems to have been pretty remarkable in letting people specialize as they choose.
 

kristing

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oh lukealfredwhite I am so happy with your response because you seem to be the only one who is getting the logic here.

And I apologize to the OP and anyone else for this has turned into a little fest re: if AZCOM is primary care oriented or not...

BUT...

Boomer said:

"OSU COM allows 8 months of elective time, and up to 4 can be the same subspecialty.

For one example...."

We only allow 2 months in the same subspecialty, and 4 months in elective time. So here is a fair argument of our school being less subspecialty oriented than OSUCOM. Fair enough. Anyone know how we compare to other DO schools in terms of elective time?

AZCOMDIDDY said:

"And why don't you buy that? Is it because you have evidence to the contrary? What are you basing your opinion on? If you have evidence, please present it to us? If not, simply admit that you don't believe it because you don't want to. It has nothing to do with evidence. It's just that when you don't believe something, you suddenly want evidenct to back that up. But I doubt you would ask for proof if someone said that AZCOM was one of the top 5 schools in regards to graduating osteopathic specialists. I'm sure you would nod your head and say "Cool".

My initial point wasn't that AZCOM intends to recruit students focused on primary care. However, I do think students who seek primary care do matriculate at AZCOM in higher proportion to students of many osteopathic schools. I have examined the match list of other schools like COMP, NYCOM and TUCOM for examples and that seems to stand up.

Perhaps you should examine those match lists before you decide whether this is or isn't true rather than just guessing. However, please understand that I'm not going to post every schools matchlist and count one by one on which school graduated more students going into residencies so don't ask."

I did not claim for us to be more primary care oriented vs other DO schools. You did. You need to provide the proof if you are going to say we are different from others. Not me. I didn't make the claim. And from all of your posts thus far regarding the issue, you have yet to back up your statements. You are the one who is appearing to be guessing, not me. I could care less at this point in my education whether or not my school emphasizes primary care more than other schools or not. I DO care, however, that you make statements about my school that are read by potential applicants and other students that are not based in fact.

If you don't have the proof for something, than don't state it as truth.
 

LukeWhite

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Anyway. We've probably pulped this, so a shift in gears for all you prospective applicants reading this. The other major question on the thread: Is Glendale a slow social death, a backwater?

Admittedly, I grew up on a farm, so my expectations are low. But as far as Phoenix versus California, I think that there are a lot more opportunites in the area, perhaps with less crowd.

e.g.: We have a the Mariners/Padres spring training complex ten minutes away, will have the Cardinals stadium shortly, and have a few local music clubs of some merit.

As for Phoenix itself, there's plenty to do if you schedule your time well, and I think it's got advantages for those who like events. I'm hitting a concert at a great bohemian art shop/music dive downtown on Thursday, doing the monthly art walk on Friday, book fair on Saturday, and indie film fest Sunday. The drive's 20-30 minutes, which judging from what I know about California, is how long it takes to get anywhere there anyhow.

So personally, I'd put AZCOM's location in the plus column on my list. Admittedly, several of the people who are less impressed with the place have actually lived here in the past, so I'll defer to them. But sometimes the natives miss the neat stuff. I think there's really far more than enough to do nearby for those looking for a life outside of school.
 

azcomdiddy

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Originally posted by kristing
oh lukealfredwhite I am so happy with your response because you seem to be the only one who is getting the logic here.

And I apologize to the OP and anyone else for this has turned into a little fest re: if AZCOM is primary care oriented or not...

BUT...

Boomer said:

"OSU COM allows 8 months of elective time, and up to 4 can be the same subspecialty.

For one example...."

We only allow 2 months in the same subspecialty, and 4 months in elective time. So here is a fair argument of our school being less subspecialty oriented than OSUCOM. Fair enough. Anyone know how we compare to other DO schools in terms of elective time?

AZCOMDIDDY said:

"And why don't you buy that? Is it because you have evidence to the contrary? What are you basing your opinion on? If you have evidence, please present it to us? If not, simply admit that you don't believe it because you don't want to. It has nothing to do with evidence. It's just that when you don't believe something, you suddenly want evidenct to back that up. But I doubt you would ask for proof if someone said that AZCOM was one of the top 5 schools in regards to graduating osteopathic specialists. I'm sure you would nod your head and say "Cool".

My initial point wasn't that AZCOM intends to recruit students focused on primary care. However, I do think students who seek primary care do matriculate at AZCOM in higher proportion to students of many osteopathic schools. I have examined the match list of other schools like COMP, NYCOM and TUCOM for examples and that seems to stand up.

Perhaps you should examine those match lists before you decide whether this is or isn't true rather than just guessing. However, please understand that I'm not going to post every schools matchlist and count one by one on which school graduated more students going into residencies so don't ask."

I did not claim for us to be more primary care oriented vs other DO schools. You did. You need to provide the proof if you are going to say we are different from others. Not me. I didn't make the claim. And from all of your posts thus far regarding the issue, you have yet to back up your statements. You are the one who is appearing to be guessing, not me. I could care less at this point in my education whether or not my school emphasizes primary care more than other schools or not. I DO care, however, that you make statements about my school that are read by potential applicants and other students that are not based in fact.

If you don't have the proof for something, than don't state it as truth.

I have presented evidence like links to matchlists etc. I have compared the matchlists from a number of years and that's what I have deduced. Certain people like yourself want to believe things and will ignore any evidence you place before them. So it doesn't matter what proof I present to you. You will find a way to contradict it or not acknowledge all together. You said it yourself. You have a hard time believing something that you haven't researched. So in other words, you based your opinon on your perception. Like I said, people want to believe what they want to believe.
 

kristing

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Originally posted by azcomdiddy
I have presented evidence like links to matchlists etc. I have compared the matchlists from a number of years and that's what I have deduced. Certain people like yourself want to believe things and will ignore any evidence you place before them. So it doesn't matter what proof I present to you. You will find a way to contradict it. You said it yourself. You have a hard time believing something yet you haven't done any research yourself to justify an issue. So in other words, you based your opinon on your perception.

You provided AZCOM's match list. That's all. No one elses. You can't compare us to other schools if you don't provide other school's match lists. How hard is that point to understand?

On to luke's point:


I personally hate the west side where AZCOM is, and chose to live on the east side, which to me is worth the commute. I do however, think that spring training games are FABULOUS regardless of where you see them. I saw 2 cubbies games this year in Mesa, and mmm-mmm. There is nothing better than getting some sun, drinking a beer and eating cracker jack on an 80 degree day.

But I do realize my bias against the west side is mostly based on the fact that I grew up in the East valley and I'm just more familiar with it. :p
 

azcomdiddy

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1) The school REQUIRES 3 family medicine rotations
2) The school REQUIRES 1 rural rotation (most of which are, in fact, family medicine)
3) The school REQUIRES 6 weeks of "Expanded Primary care"
4) The school LIMITS your elective time spent in any one subspecialty to 2 months.


These facts alone suggest that AZCOM "disadvantages" or impairs one's ability to specialize. I didn't say it prevented a student from specialzing. But it does make it more challenging for one. And every AZCOM students who did manage to match in their specialized field admitted that they had to cut corners and figure out ways to fudge the system. Some students had to make special requests to do rotations. Others snuck around during rotations to get into fields they were interested in.

If one has more rotations to focus on their field of interest, it does improve ones' chances of matching in that particular fiield. This is a fact and common sense so I don't want to hear some contrived argument from a first year like Luke who simply doesn't want to admit he was wrong.

Let's take derm for example. You apply to derm during your transitional year. If I get to do 4 months of derm during my 3rd and 4th year, I will be exposed to more programs and thus have more connections. I will learn more about the field and be able to impress program directors and residents. If I'm limited to only 2 months of derm while people in other programs are doing 4 or 5 months, I will be at a disadvantage.
 

kristing

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Originally posted by azcomdiddy
I have already gone over this. I said I compared our match lists to others schools. Do I really need to post the links every osteopathic school in the nation. Can you not look that up yourself or do you need me to hold your hand. The fact of the matter is you based your opinion on your perception of the school. I based mine on comparing match lists. Who is guessing now. Do you want me to repeat this a few posts later or will you remember what I said this time?

Where did you get the other match lists? Seriously? If you have a link or two or three, that would bolster your case. I just DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

I have read all of your posts. You don't need to repeat what you say, just PROVIDE EVIDENCE if you want me to believe you.

I have seen COMP's matchlist and it seems we are producing MORE subspecialists than them.

Boomer's provided some interesting FACTS. Why don't you do the same?
 

azcomdiddy

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Originally posted by kristing
Where did you get the other match lists? Seriously? If you have a link or two or three, that would bolster your case. I just DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

I have read all of your posts. You don't need to repeat what you say, just PROVIDE EVIDENCE if you want me to believe you.

I have seen COMP's matchlist and it seems we are producing MORE subspecialists than them.

Boomer's provided some interesting FACTS. Why don't you do the same?



(1.) PCOM provides more elective time than us. 6 months of elective time and 2 months selective.


http://www.pcom.edu/Clinical_Education/clinical_education.htm

(2.)Texas offers 24 weeks of electives
http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/tcom/Courses.cfm

(3.) Michigan State offers 16 elective weeks and 10 selective weeks

http://www.com.msu.edu/aa/unitIII/geninfo.shtml

(4.) NYCOM site doesn't specify the amount of elective time. However, they do require 12 weeks of surgery and 12 weeks of medicine during their core. Students who want to go into surgery will have an advantage at NYCOM.

http://iris.nyit.edu/nycom/future/fut_course.htm

(5.) TUCOM gets 8 weeks of electives in 3rd year. They get 8 weeks of electives in 4th year with an additional 8 weeks of "specialty and subspecialty" options. It should also be known that ther core third year rotations includes 8 weeks of surgery and 8 weeks of medicine.

http://www.tucom.edu

These are just 5 schools whose schedules enable one to get more exposure to specialized fields of interest. They get more elective time than us. That gives students at those schools an advantage when trying to specialize. I stopped at these 5 schools. I'm sure there are more schools that offer more elective time and less core rotations in family practice than AZCOM.

Boomer and I have presented facts. Perhaps you should do the same. I don't have a problem with you trying to sell the school or even defend it. What I do have a problem with is your deliberate attempt to relegate the negative aspects of our school. No school is perfect. If you want to sell the school, simply discuss it's strengths. You don't try to sell a Hummer H2 by suggesting it offers great gas mileage. Likewise, you shouldn't suggest our school does not impair one's chances of specializing when our curriculum clearly limits electives for one to get exposure to specialized fields of interest. That doesn't prevent specializing but it does make it more challenging.

Our school is great if you want a laid back atmosphere, good weather, amazing facilities, and excellent teaching. If you want to pursue primary care, I wouldn't consider another school aside from possibly MSU. However, if you want to specialize and you could care less about all the intangibles above, then go elsewhere.

The cheerleading of AZCOM has to stop. There is another side to the school that applicants should be made aware of. Anyone who implies our school is perfect has ulterior motives.
 

LukeWhite

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Originally posted by azcomdiddy
[BIf one has more rotations to focus on their field of interest, it does improve ones' chances of matching in that particular fiield. This is a fact and common sense so I don't want to hear some contrived argument from a first year like Luke who simply doesn't want to admit he was wrong.
[/B]

Let's not get snippy now.

You're arguing that the emphasis on primary care disadvantages people who want to specialize. Your support for this is the emphasis on primary care. Seems sort of circular to me.

Anyhow. I've looked at the match lists, and it seems to me, for all the reasons we've discussed, that AZCOM has a lot of specialists--more than one would expect. We've compared the numbers to another DO school. So far, all the evidence I've seen suggest that AZCOMers who want to specialize do quite well from the setup.

I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong if it's the case. Frankly, I've got no vested interest in it as I think a focus on primary care is preferable, and I wouldn't mind at all seeing AZCOM turn out far more primary care docs. But you can hardly blame me for being unconvinced when your evidence so far has only consisted of, "We have to do LOTS of primary care rotations! That's dumb!"

In your last post you mention that other schools offer more elective time, and seem convinced this proves your point. Maybe we're talking past each other a bit--I don't see how this proves your point at all. In other words, show me the correlation between lots of elective time and better rates of matching into competitive specialties. If you can do that, I'll be convinced.
 

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"audition rotations" aren't always necessary, however, don't forget board scores. Those wanting to specialize will be screened by those initially, then possibly offered an interview.

Step 1 is basic sciences. We all agree that AZCOM does a good job here. Look at our board pass rate.

Step 2 is clinically based. Again, our board pass rate is excellent. It is based on primary care medicine. No radiation oncology (they should!), anesthesia, neurosurgery or other specialty medicine were on it. There were overlapping questions, such as a PTA which would be identified by a PC physician and referred to an ENT.

These two tests will get you foot into the door. Then it is up to you to do well on your interview.

When I interviewed for Radiation Oncology, I had done no previous rotations at the programs I interviewed at. They also asked no questions about radiation oncology. They don't expect you to be a specialist already. Most if it was, do you have any questions for us. If they interview you, they want to see if your personality fits in the department, and answer questions for you.

On the D.O. side, from what I have heard, face time counts. There are favorites in the smaller osteopathic community, however, if you want a specialty, the allopathic community has better choices by the numbers of programs offered.

Don't sweat it. Work hard, finish high on boards/class rank and you will get what you want. Also, take USMLE if apply allo.

Rob
 
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Rob has an excellent point. Our Board scores say A LOT about the quality of education here. I personally think the basic science years are awsome!

I can see where a lot of the concern is coming from, and please correct me if I am wrong.

A big concern is not being able to have enough time to pursue medical possibilities (specialties) outside of primary care, especially if one is not sure as to what he/she wants to go into.

I cool thing would be to have an option to do a primary care focus track during msIII-IV (what the curriculum is now) and a general medical/traditional focus track (including more months of electives in what ever you wish). I, myself, am not going into primary care?But I am not looking for a competitive residency either. (IM with sub specialty in the future). As a matter of personal preference, however, I would love to be able to try a rotation or two in fields that I know I would NEVER really get a lot of time in as a resident/doctor.
 

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These facts alone suggest that AZCOM "disadvantages" or impairs one's ability to specialize
how can you explain azcom matching in more sub-specialties (b/c primary care are specialties too:)) than comp(using the example on hand)?
the school has done just fine in matching people who want to sub-specialize...the proof is in the match list...
curriculum or not...students are matching in sub-specialties...58%+ of the grads matched in sub-specialties
 

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COMP match list 2003:

Family Practice PIH Family Practice Residency Whittier CA
Pediatrics Children's Hospital Los Angeles CA

AOA - Rotating Internship Chino Valley Medical Center 5451 Walnut Ave.

#2 Baylor U Med Ctr., Dallas, TX Phys Med & Rehab Chino / #2 Dallas CA / #2 TX 91710

AOA - CMB: FP/ Family Practice Chino Valley MC

Family Practice San Joaquin General Hospital Stockton CA

Internal Medicine USC Los Angeles CA

AOA - CMB: T/Family Practice Arrowhead Regional Medical Center Colton CA

AOA - CMB: FP/Family Practice Chino Valley Medical CenterFamily Practice PIH Family Practice Residency Whittier CA

Internal Medicine USC Los Angeles CA

Transitional Arrowhead Regional Medicine Center Colton CA

AOA - CMB:T/General Surgery Genesys Health Systems Grand Blanc MI

Internal Medicine Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

Internal Medicine USC Los Angeles CA

Psychiatry Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Los Angeles CA

Obstetrics-Gyn Albany Medical Center Albany NY

Family Practice Madigan Army Medical Center Military Match Army Tacoma WA

Pediatrics Naval Medical Center Military Match Navy San Diego CA

Medicine/ Preliminary #2 ER Cook County Hospital #2 - USC - ER #2 Los Angeles IL - #2 CA

Psychiatry Maricopa County Medical Center Phoenix AZ

Internal medicine White Memorial Los Angeles CA
VA Greater LA Health Systems #2 Phys Med & Rehab Los Angeles CA

AOA - INT: Rotating Internship /#2 Phy Med & Rehab Eastmoreland Hospital #2 Stanford University Programs Portland / #2 Stanford OR / #2 CA
Internal Medicine USC Los Angeles CA

Family Practice Kaiser Permanente Riversdie Riverside CA

Family Practice Scripps Memorial Hospital CA

CMB:FP/FAMILY PRACTICE CHINO VALLEY MEDICAL CENTER CHINO CA

Surgery - Preliminary Mayo Graduate SOM\ MN

OB/GYN UCLA Los Angeles CA

Pediatrics Kaiser Permanente - LA Los Angeles CA

AOA - INT: Rot Int/ #2 Phys Med & Rehab Pacific Hospital
#2 UC Irivine Medical Ctr. Long Beach/ #2 Orange CA

Internal Medicine Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

Psychiatry Cambridge Hospital/CHA-MA Cambridge MA

Family Practice UC Davis Medical Center - Sacramento Sacramento CA

OB/GYN Kern Medical Center CA

Family Practice U of Illinois COM -Rockford Rockford IL

Family Practice Exempla St. Joseph Hospital CO

INT: Rotating Int./ #2 Phys Med & Rehab Pacific Hospital #2 UC Davis Med Ctr Long Beach / #2 Sacramento CA

Family Medicine/Swedish Med U of Colorado SOM - Denver CO

Obstetrics/Gynecology Arrowhead Reg. Med. Ctr. Colton CA

CMB: T/Family Medicine Downey Regional Medical Center Downey CA

INT: Traditional Rotating Internship Downey Regional Medical Center Downey CA

Transitional Year William Beaumont Army Medcal Center Military Match Army El Paso TX

AOA - CMB: Family Practice Eastmoreland Hospital Portland OR

General Surgery Martin Luther King JR.r./Drew Los Angeles CA

Family Practice USC Family Medicine Residency Prog. Los Angeles CA

AOA - INT: Rotating Internship/ #2 Anesthesiology Arrowhead Regional Medical Cente/ #2 USC Colton/ #2 Los Angeles CA
Pediatrics Military - Tripler Army Medical Center Military Match Army Tripler AMC HI

CMB: Family Practice Arrowhead Regional Medical Center Colton CA

Internal Medicine University of Hawaii HI
UNM - Neurology Albuquerque NM

AOA - CMB: Emergency Medicine Genesys Health Systems GRAND BLANC MI

Emergency Medicine TX Tech U Affiliated El Paso TX

Medicine-Pediatrics U of Missouri - Kansas City MO

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP/2ND YR GENERAL SURGERY ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA

Pediatrics Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP UHSCOM/UNIVERSITY OF WYOMING CASPER WY

Family Practice White Memorial Med Center Los Angeles CA

AOA Family Practice Natividad Medical Center CA

AOA - CMB: T/FAMILY PRACTICE DOCTORS' HOSPITAL MEDICAL CENTER - MONTCLAIR MONTCLAIR CA

Family Practice UC San Diego Med. Center CA

Psychiatry - UCLA/SFVP VA Greater LA Health Systems Los Angeles CA

Family Practice California Hospital Medical Center CA

Family Medicine/UCLS/Santa Monica UCLA Medical Center Santa Monica CA

Family Practice Pomona Valley Medical Center Pomona Valley CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA
Psychiatry Harbor - UCLA Medical Center CA

Family Practice Glendale Adventist CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP DOWNEY REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER DOWNEY CA
Family Practice Memorial Family Practice Residency TX

Family Practice Martin Army Community Hospital Military Match Army Ft. Benning GA

Internal Medicine U of Nevada - Reno RENO NV

Pediatrics UC San Francisco - Fresno Fresno CA

Family Practice UC San Francisco CA

Internal Medicine Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

Internal Medicine Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

AOA - CMB: T/NEUROLOGY MSUCOM/E W SPARROW HOSPITAL LANSING MI

Family Practice/ First Hill Swedish Medical Center WA

Psychiatry National Naval Medical Center Military Match Navy Bethesda MD

Emergency Medicine Maricopa Medical Center Phoenix AZ

AOA - CMB: T/FAMILY PRACTICE ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA

Family Practice Scripps Memorial Hospital CA

Family Practice Harbor-UCLA Medical Center CA

Emergency Medicine Albert Einstein Medical Center PA

INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP ST. BARNABAS HOSPITAL BRONX NY

Family Practice UC Irvine Medical Center Orange CA

Family Practice UC Irvine Medical Center Orange CA

AOA - INT: TRAD. ROT. INTERNSHIP - NRMP aNESTHESIOLOGY #2 U of Tennessee COM BROOKLYN/ #2 Memphis NY / #2 TN

Pathology U of Texas Branch - Galveston Galveston TX

Internal Medicine Loma Linda Medical Center Loma Linda CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP UHHS RICHMOND HEIGHTS, HOSPITAL RICHMOND HEIGHTS OH


AOA-No PGY1 - #2 Physical Med. & Rehab #2 UNDNJ- RW Johnson -Piscataway #2 Piscataway #2 NJ

Medicine -Pediatrics Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA
Internal Medicine Loma Linda University Loma Linda CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP MWU-AZCOM/KINGMAN REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER KINGMAN AZ

AOA- INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP LAKE MEAD HOSPITAL MEDICAL CENTER NORTH LAS VEGAS NV

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP DOCTORS' HOSPITAL MEDICAL CENTER - MONTCLAIR mONTCLAIR CA

Transitional Kern Medical Center CA

Family Practice California Hospital Medical Center CA

AOA - CMB: EM/EMERGENCY MEDICINE OUCOM/DOCTORS' HOSPITAL - COLUMBUS COLUMBUS OH

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP PACIFIC HOSPITAL LONG BEACH LONG BEACH CA

Family Practice UC Irivine Medical Center Irvine CA

OB/GYN Tulane University SOM
LA

Family Practice Good Samaraitan Regional Medical Center AZ

Family Practice Northridge Hospital Medical Center CA

Family Practice Northridge Hosptial Medical Center CA

AOA - CMB: T/ FAMILY PRACTICE ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA


#2Radiology - Diagnostic #Tulane University SOM LA

No PGY1 #2 Anesthesiology #2 University of Chicago Hospital IL

AOA - INT: TRADITONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP DOCTORS' HOSPITAL OF MONTCLAIR MONTCLAIR CA

Transitional #2ER Kern Medical Center #2 USC CA

Internal Medical Kaiser Permantente-SF San Francisco CA

AOA - CMB: T/FAMILY PRACTICE DOWNEY REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER DOWNEY CA

Family Practice Naval Hospital Military Match Navy
Camp Pendleton CA

AOA - CMB: EM:EMERGENCY MEDICINE ST. BARNABAS HOSPITAL BRONX NY

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP DOCTORS HPOSPITAL MONTCLAIR MONTCLAIR CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP PCOM/PHILADELPHIA CONSORTIUM PHILADELPHIA CA

Internal Medicine - Preliminary UC San Francisco - Fresno Fresno CA

AOA - INT: TRADITIONAL ROTATING INTERNSHIP EASTMORELAND HOSPITAL PORTLAND OR

Family Practice /CHC Mercy Medical Center Redding CA

#2ER #2 Einstein/Jacobi Medical Center #2 NY

Internal Medicine White Memorial Medical Center LA CA

Family Practice Kaiser Permanente Riverside CA

aoa- CMB: T/fAMILY pRACTICE ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA

Family Practice Long Beach Memorial Medical Center Long Beach CA

Family Practice Sutter Medical Center Santa Rosa CA

Family Practice Riverside County Regional Medical Center Moreno Valley CA

Family Practice Memorial Hospital RI

Family Practice Long Beach Memorial Medical Center Long Beach CA

Psychiatry Loma Linda University SOM Loma Linda CA

Transitional Year William Beaumont Army Medical Center Military Match Army El Paso TX

AOA - CMB:EMEMERGENCY MEDICINE ST. BARNABAS hOSPITAL BRONX NY

Psychiatry Harbor - UCLA Medical Center Harbor City CA

Family Practice California Hospital Medical Center CA

AOA - CMB: T/FAMILY PRACTICE ARROWHEAD REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER COLTON CA

Family Practice Naval Hospital Military Match Navy Jacksonville FL
 

kristing

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Thanks to lukealfred white for saying exactly what I wanted to say, but in a much better manner than I could have ever done.

Ok. AzCOMDIDDY. Now you are just being silly with your accusations of us cheerleading and having "ulterior motives." silly silly silly.

But you did give us some links that show AZCOM promotes more primary care than the 5 schools you listed. Fine.

I do believe, however, that your original quote that I disputed is:

"What I was trying to say was that the majority of students who matriculate at AZCOM tend to focus more on primary care than students of other DO schools. For whatever reason, AZCOM attracts a large percentage of primary care students. "

And your links STILL do not prove this. Does the school PROMOTE more primary care? Well, yes, it seems so. (Now that you have shown some examples, I can see that it does.) But does it ATTRACT more people interested in primary care? I just don't see that proof. I think that a matchlist would be a better measure of this, albeit imperfect, since what one is attracted to at the beginning of med school vs what one ends up practicing may be different. However, it's probably a better tool to gauge us vs other DO schools.

And I'm sure I will now be accused of something else... here it comes...
 

azcomdiddy

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Originally posted by bla_3x
Rob has an excellent point. Our Board scores say A LOT about the quality of education here. I personally think the basic science years are awsome!

I can see where a lot of the concern is coming from, and please correct me if I am wrong.

A big concern is not being able to have enough time to pursue medical possibilities (specialties) outside of primary care, especially if one is not sure as to what he/she wants to go into.

I cool thing would be to have an option to do a primary care focus track during msIII-IV (what the curriculum is now) and a general medical/traditional focus track (including more months of electives in what ever you wish). I, myself, am not going into primary care?But I am not looking for a competitive residency either. (IM with sub specialty in the future). As a matter of personal preference, however, I would love to be able to try a rotation or two in fields that I know I would NEVER really get a lot of time in as a resident/doctor.

Good post. I agree with everything in your post. The faculty at AZCOM is second to none. Maybe other schools have more famous faculty but our faculty is at AZCOM to teach and not to do research. Our faculty goes out of their way to make sure you learn the material. Most importantly, our faculty teaches to the boards. They don't flood you with too much superfluous information. Nearly everything we learn has a clinical basis to it. I'm studying for the boards and I can see how much our education has paid.

I too wish they would create more opportunities for those of us who want to specialize. But I will still match in my field. I'm determined.. However, this prociess is annoying. Maybe I'll be happy and chill like the rest when I'm done.
 

azcomdiddy

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Originally posted by kristing
Thanks to lukealfred white for saying exactly what I wanted to say, but in a much better manner than I could have ever done.

Ok. AzCOMDIDDY. Now you are just being silly with your accusations of us cheerleading and having "ulterior motives." silly silly silly.

But you did give us some links that show AZCOM promotes more primary care than the 5 schools you listed. Fine.

I do believe, however, that your original quote that I disputed is:

"What I was trying to say was that the majority of students who matriculate at AZCOM tend to focus more on primary care than students of other DO schools. For whatever reason, AZCOM attracts a large percentage of primary care students. "

And your links STILL do not prove this. Does the school PROMOTE more primary care? Well, yes, it seems so. (Now that you have shown some examples, I can see that it does.) But does it ATTRACT more people interested in primary care? I just don't see that proof. I think that a matchlist would be a better measure of this, albeit imperfect, since what one is attracted to at the beginning of med school vs what one ends up practicing may be different. However, it's probably a better tool to gauge us vs other DO schools.

And I'm sure I will now be accused of something else... here it comes...

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your responses are predictable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that your entire purpose on this thread was to discredit me in some manner. You will merely contradict everything or anyone else says that supports my statements. You will look for loopholes and keep requesting additional proof with the hope that I will run out. Regardless of the evidence I will present to you, you are going to deny it. I just enjoyed presenting it to you anyway. Because it is amusing that I keep presenting proof and all you do is :"Where's the proof" Really, it's been fun but can we move past the high school debate tricks. You are just upset that I called you on your bogus: "It only takes me 45 minutes to drive from Mesa to AZCOM in the morning." Please
 

LukeWhite

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I don't think anyone's out to get anyone. We've got legitimate disagreements on whether AZCOM's setup works for people wanting to specialize, and that's that. Obviously it doesn't, or shouldn't, matter much to any of us, since for better or for worse we're stuck with it.

Some of us came because of the setup, others apparently in spite of it. So whether the setup is great or awful, I think it speaks well of the school either way. I'm sure potential AZCOMers reading this have more or less gotten the answers they needed.
 

Histrionic

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Originally posted by lukealfredwhite

As for Phoenix itself, there's plenty to do if you schedule your time well, and I think it's got advantages for those who like events. I'm hitting a concert at a great bohemian art shop/music dive downtown on Thursday, doing the monthly art walk on Friday, book fair on Saturday, and indie film fest Sunday. The drive's 20-30 minutes, which judging from what I know about California, is how long it takes to get anywhere there anyhow.


Do you also manage to get your eyebrows waxed during your busy social life? You should have went to that Tuoro school near San Francisco. You sound like you would fit in well there.
 

LukeWhite

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Heh. No, Touro was out; the leftover abestos would've been bad for my delicate complexion.

Alas, when you're a non-drinking evangelical protestant, one has to be creative about filling the time in the Big Scary City. Picking off pagans with the .22 doesn't go over as well here as it did back on the farm, so when in Rome...

Unfortunately, one can't wax eyebrows on a med school budget, but if you know a good pedicurist, don't hold back.
 

San_Juan_Sun

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Originally posted by azcomdiddy
You are just upset that I called you on your bogus: "It only takes me 45 minutes to drive from Mesa to AZCOM in the morning." Please

Given your history, I wouldn't start talking about drive times. :)
 

kristing

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Originally posted by azcomdiddy
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your responses are predictable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that your entire purpose on this thread was to discredit me in some manner. You will merely contradict everything or anyone else says that supports my statements. You will look for loopholes and keep requesting additional proof with the hope that I will run out. Regardless of the evidence I will present to you, you are going to deny it. I just enjoyed presenting it to you anyway. Because it is amusing that I keep presenting proof and all you do is :"Where's the proof" Really, it's been fun but can we move past the high school debate tricks. You are just upset that I called you on your bogus: "It only takes me 45 minutes to drive from Mesa to AZCOM in the morning." Please

The worst type of arguing is the type that merely attacks the other person's credibility without providing evidence for one's argument itself. You should have learned that in high school debate. Or logic 101. Another bad arguing pitfall of novices: to use stereotypes. Notice yours above.

Ummmm... also... don't tell me my feelings. That's a communications 101 lesson for you.

You have provided me with NO EVIDENCE to support the quote:

"What I was trying to say was that the majority of students who matriculate at AZCOM tend to focus more on primary care than students of other DO schools. For whatever reason, AZCOM attracts a large percentage of primary care students. "

You haven't proven anything. No comparisons with us vs other DO schools in terms of those who matriculate at any school in terms of intent or match list (yes AZCOM's was posted, as was COMP's, but as I recall, that showed that we put out fewer PCP's than them). Curriculum does not equal student intent.

I'm done with this argument. It's getting ridiculous.

Sorry to all who had to witness it.
 

kristing

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Originally posted by lukealfredwhite

Unfortunately, one can't wax eyebrows on a med school budget, but if you know a good pedicurist, don't hold back.

oh no. Not true. Eyebrow waxing merely costs $8 - $15, vs pedicures which cost $20 on up. I know. I get them both done. But only on occasion.

;)
 

kristing

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Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
In THAT case, I know who's going to have the prettiest eyebrows in the class of 2007 on Monday!

ohmygawd. please just don't bleach your hair! Men with that new spiky bleached hair thing going on trying to look all urban and cool are just FREAKISH. Especially in Glendale. LA, NY, MAYBE. Just not here.

:laugh:
 
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