Bachelor of Dental Surgery

[sbesbesbe]

I just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss.

There are universities in other countries for example, Australia that take in students directly from high school into their bachelor of dental surgery program which is a 5 year course.
I am just wondering really after 5 years, how can these universities think that the students are adequate and qualified enough at age 23-24 to be a dentist?
We are going through all these volunteer work, shadowing, research, DAT, and so much more just to get into a dental school AFTER 4 or more years of undergrad work.
That's an extra 3 to 4 more years of work. That's ALOT of time and money.

If you think about it, if you are willing to move to that country and live there, or since Australia/Canada/US signed the new agreement, go there, get the degree and comeback
would you actually consider getting a bachelor of dental surgery instead of DMD or DDS?
Are they even equivalent?

What do you guys all think about this?

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[lululime]

If you have a Bachelor degree you can't practice in Canada.

 

[sbesbesbe]

Actually some people told me that it's just a matter of title but they are all equivalent. Can someone confirm this?

 

[mahfouz]

Well, I would like to weigh in on this because I have considered this option before. I have tons of relatives abroad who got their BDSs and work in the country as dentists, but the process of coming back here to work is long and drawn out. You have to come here and apply for programs, get in, do at least 2 more years of residency, and then apply for certification before practicing. I think it's not worth it because there's no guarantee that you'll get accepted into a post-doc program. You should also look into state requirements for getting certified in the state you are looking at- some states require you to have done an advanced standing program called an IDP, or have done all four years here. You can't just come from abroad and start working right away. That would be catastrophic. Finally, I would like to add that most students who come here and get accepted into AEGD, GPR, etc programs, have a lot of experience working in their country, and have some degree past a BDS, like a masters. They came here and shadowed, worked as assistants, and then applied. So it's not as easy as you think, unless you studied in Canada.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

It is very an interesting discussion you have brought up. US/Canada and recently Australia are the only countries that offer DDS/DMD programs. In other words, all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees, and they are working on people's teeth just as the DDS/DMDs do. In this sense, DDS/DMD = BDS.

If you research further into dental education in the US, you can find a few offers of 7-, and even 6 YEARS DDS/BS degrees. The 6 year path offered in our country is just one year short of the their 5 year BDS program, so you can also argue that a 24 year old American DDS/BS can practice and treat patients. Just because someone is young, does not necessarily mean that he is not a good dentist, or he is not mature enough. [see all the threads in DDS/DMD forum about immature dental student]

I think the US/Canada system is practically a waste of student's time and energy. Just as there are 6 years programs, it proves that students can handle the coursework and master the fundamental science in a shorter period of time, rather than going to undergraduate, take all these stupid useless PC requirements to graduate. Of course, the government, the dental boards, and the schools want to keep students in school longer = we pay them more money.

I would also like to point out that for many countries, especially Germany and UK, it is required to do two additional years of vocational training after the 5 years of BDS training. In Germany, during the first several years of training, all doctors are even required to learn Latin since all the medical terms are derivatives of Greek/Late Latin/Old French. That's what I call a REALLY REALLY good education.

HOWEVER, we have this phenomenon of dentists all over the world coming to the US of A to study DDS/DMD, or enroll in residency programs. And you rarely see this the other way around. I think this itself speaks for the quality of the American/Canada education. In this sense DDS/DMD > BDS.

 

[MoralDecay]

Do people actually think undergrad makes that much of a difference? I mean, we have kids transferring from community colleges, kids getting into d-school with 2.9 GPAs/19 AAs, kids who take psychology as a major, etc. Are these people REALLY more qualified than some high school student who may have the potential to succeed at any (real) undergrad in a (real) major? I don't think so. Personally, I don't think I'm going to use any of my organic chemistry, stats, calculus, etc., in my practice. Whatever I need to know, I'll learn in dental school.

Let's face it: North America has made undergrad a requirement to weed out applicants, clearly not to select "the best" for dental/medical school.

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

let's face it: north american high school kids are immature dumb*****s, clearly not "the best" for dental/medical school.

you're right in that not all material in undregrad is pertinent, but it was designed to weed out risky prospective students.

if you can't handle undergrad work how are you going to handle dental school.

also psychology has its faults, and boy does it have faults, but it's still craploads better than 90% of the majors out there

So true.

I agree that undergrad helps weed out people, and I think it's a good system. Could you imagine if a high school student, who may have been a genius in her/his school, had a reality check and couldn't keep up with "dental college"? At least in undergrad, you have the option of changing majors and changing your plan. If the Biology/ pre health tracking isn't working out, you can find something else to do in college. In a BDS program, you either keep up or you're out.

I've heard plenty of people from abroad (health professionals themselves) who believe the BDS program is much better and helps out the dentists since they practice early and "don't waste time". However I've heard a lot patients from abroad say they would prefer dentists who graduated from the US/Canada system because they tend to show more maturity, professionalism, and compassion. So I guess undergrad allows you to grow up a little bit before you hit the real thing.

 

[bigbadaboom]

I just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss.

There are universities in other countries for example, Australia that take in students directly from high school into their bachelor of dental surgery program which is a 5 year course.
I am just wondering really after 5 years, how can these universities think that the students are adequate and qualified enough at age 23-24 to be a dentist?
We are going through all these volunteer work, shadowing, research, DAT, and so much more just to get into a dental school AFTER 4 or more years of undergrad work.
That's an extra 3 to 4 more years of work. That's ALOT of time and money.

If you think about it, if you are willing to move to that country and live there, or since Australia/Canada/US signed the new agreement, go there, get the degree and comeback
would you actually consider getting a bachelor of dental surgery instead of DMD or DDS?
Are they even equivalent?

What do you guys all think about this?

not equivalent. a BDS is not a "doctor".
a BDS is only addressed as "Dr." out of courtesy.

though BDS in foreign countries is only a 6 year program, many require 2-3 year residency prior to be licensed for private practice. The residency experience is invaluable and many US grads miss out when they do not follow up with GPR/AEGD.

 

[fujindesu]

some schools offer a 4 year dental hygiene BS degree. There's ur bachelors in dentistry.

 

[sbesbesbe]

I am on both sides when it comes to this topic. I am sure that most of us had the potential to get into a dental school right after highschool (I had a 95% average in all grade 12 courses).
I believe that undergrad helps a student mature and gives that much choices if things do not work out.

BUT think about it. How many of you are taking courses like German, Food and Nutrition, classical studies etc just to boost your GPA. These are the course I would NEVER use again but am stuck taking these courses anyways.

At least, if you get into a BDS, you are taking the courses you need, have very early clinical experience, don't have to stress out about getting into dental school, waste thousands of dollars trying to get into dental school and what if you don't get in? Thats 4+ years waste and what can you really do with a bachelor of science degree?

Dunno about you but for me, if I knew I had a choice to get into a BDS, I would have jumped in. I guess it's too late cause after 3 years of undergrad and going into a BDS seems A LOT of waste of my parents' hard earned cash and I would rather get a DMD/DDS.

Today, I have a German class I gotta go to. A class I am paying $600 for but will never use again. If this isn't wasting money, I really don't know what is.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

BUT think about it. How many of you are taking courses like German, Food and Nutrition, classical studies etc just to boost your GPA. These are the course I would NEVER use again but am stuck taking these courses anyways.


Dunno about you but for me, if I knew I had a choice to get into a BDS, I would have jumped in. I guess it's too late cause after 3 years of undergrad and going into a BDS seems A LOT of waste of my parents' hard earned cash and I would rather get a DMD/DDS.

Today, I have a German class I gotta go to. A class I am paying $600 for but will never use again. If this isn't wasting money, I really don't know what is.

I have to jump on this. Classical Studies are HARD, definitely killing my GPA rather than boosting it.

 

[vellnueve]

I am just wondering really after 5 years, how can these universities think that the students are adequate and qualified enough at age 23-24 to be a dentist?

Most BDS dentists in the US have to train several years here before they can get a license.

As for the age issue, I know one dentist who was 23 at graduation.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

So true.

I agree that undergrad helps weed out people, and I think it's a good system. Could you imagine if a high school student, who may have been a genius in her/his school, had a reality check and couldn't keep up with "dental college"? At least in undergrad, you have the option of changing majors and changing your plan. If the Biology/ pre health tracking isn't working out, you can find something else to do in college. In a BDS program, you either keep up or you're out.

I've heard plenty of people from abroad (health professionals themselves) who believe the BDS program is much better and helps out the dentists since they practice early and "don't waste time". However I've heard a lot patients from abroad say they would prefer dentists who graduated from the US/Canada system because they tend to show more maturity, professionalism, and compassion. So I guess undergrad allows you to grow up a little bit before you hit the real thing.

👍

 

[doc toothache]

It is very an interesting discussion you have brought up. US/Canada and recently Australia are the only countries that offer DDS/DMD programs. In other words, all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees, and they are working on people's teeth just as the DDS/DMDs do. In this sense, DDS/DMD = BDS.

You actually researched all the countries to make this claim?

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

You actually researched all the countries to make this claim?

Yes, I have. Not all the countries obviously, since many countries (i.e. San Marino, Lichtenstein, etc. don't have dental schools). Many countries also have schools that offer doctoral and masters degrees upon completion of BDS , but not to the equivalent of DMD/DDS, rather BDS = DMD/DDS, such that the bachelor's degree along permits dentists to practice.

 

[uva09]

In other words, all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees

Uh, a 10 second review of the Dental degree Wikipedia page shows a number of first professional degrees in Dentistry other than the DMD, DDS, and BDS degrees...

and they are working on people's teeth just as the DDS/DMDs do. In this sense, DDS/DMD = BDS.

Right. And a Chiropractor is working on someone's neck just the same as a Neurosurgical Spine Specialist is...

There is a good reason why these foreign trained professionals have to go through years of additional education and training to practice in the US.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

If we are going to start quoting from Wikpedia, then here

In Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Finland, Sweden, the United States, and Canada, a dentist is a healthcare professional qualified to practice dentistry after graduating with a degree of either Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) or Doctor of Dental Medicine (DMD). This is equivalent to the Bachelor of Dental Surgery/Baccalaureus Dentalis Chirurgiae (BDS, BDent, BChD, BDSc) that is awarded in the UK and British Commonwealth countries. In most western countries, to become a qualified dentist one must usually complete at least four years of postgraduate study[citation needed]; within the European Union the education has to be at least five years. Dentists usually complete between five and eight years of post-secondary education before practising. Though not mandatory, many dentists choose to complete an internship or residency focusing on specific aspects of dental care after they have received their dental degree.

 

[uva09]

I don't recall quoting Wikipedia. I merely referred you to the website as a source of conflicting information as you noted, with superflous language, in a previous post that all non-US-Canadian-Australian dentists are conferred the BDS degree - this is simply incorrect. I see the BDent, BChD, BDentS, BDSc, LDS, MDent, MDS, DD, Dr.Med.Dent, - to name a few alternative degrees... And your quoted passage merely argues in favor of my original point as there are listed degrees, in bold, other than the BDS.

And just because a degree has some ceremonial equivalence does not mean it has any real equivalence in practice. If this weren't true, foreign trained dentists would not have to jump through so many hoops and continue with added education to practice in the US.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

And apparently, so is wikipedia on Finland, Sweden, Taiwain, and Japan, as these countries start dental school after high school.
see, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_degree

BDent = BChD = BDentS = BDSc = LDS are the same bachelor's degree, just as DMD=DDS

MDS, DD, Dr.Med.Dent, are awarded to BDS=BDent=BChD=BDentS=BDsc=LDS holders who have completed residency (also known as graduate studies) what we call specialty programs. (exempli gratia, an orthodontist would have BDS and MDent/GDB).

Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS)
Doctor of Dental Medicine (DMD)
Bachelor of Dentistry (BDent)
Bachelor of Dental Surgery (BDS or BChD or BDentS)
Bachelor of Dental Science (BDSc or BDentSc)
Bachelor of Dental Medicine (BDM)
Bachelor of Oral Health in Dental Science (BOHDSc)
Licentiate of Dental Surgery (LDS)
Graduate Diploma in Dentistry (Grad Dip Dent)
Master of Dentistry (MDent)
Master of Stomatology (MStomat)
Master of Dental Surgery (MDS)
Doctor of Dentistry (DD)
Cirujano Dentista - Dental Surgeon[citation needed]
Candidate of Odontology (Cand.Odont.)
Doctor of Medical Dentistry (Dr.Med.Dent.)

I don't recall quoting Wikipedia. I merely referred you to the website as a source of conflicting information as you noted, with superflous language, in a previous post that all non-US-Canadian-Australian dentists are conferred the BDS degree - this is simply incorrect. I see the BDent, BChD, BDentS, BDSc, LDS, MDent, MDS, DD, Dr.Med.Dent, - to name a few alternative degrees... And your quoted passage merely argues in favor of my original point as there are listed degrees, in bold, other than the BDS.

And just because a degree has some ceremonial equivalence does not mean it has any real equivalence in practice. If this weren't true, foreign trained dentists would not have to jump through so many hoops and continue with added education to practice in the US.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

and here is an example of that, if you are interested.

A at NYU:
D.D.S. 1990, Federal University of Minas Gerais (UFMG), Brazil - called DDS, but is actually an undergrad course that is 4 and half years http://www.odonto.ufmg.br/
M.Sc. 2000, University of Sao Paulo – Bauru (FOB-USP), Brazil - masters in Prosthodontics, which is what we call speciality
Ph.D. 2003, University of Sao Paulo – Bauru (FOB-USP), Brazil - PhD in Prosthodontics, which is what we call research and more specialized
Post-doc 2004, New York University College of Dentistry (NYUCD), USA - what we call international dentist in the US

http://www.nyu.edu/dental/faculty/bios/ft/nrd1

 

[sbesbesbe]

I didn't make this thread to argue over what some countries offer, a BDS or DDS/DMD. I am just trying to point out that this system of getting into dental school after 4 years of undergrad seems a bit of waste of time and money.

I prefer the system some countries have. Getting into a dental student right after highschool so that a student doesn't waste so much time/money and can look elsewhere if it doesn't work out.

This is just my thought.
And yeah, if someone with a BDS want to come to US to practice, they will probably have to go through 2+ years of additional training. But what about those who chose to stay in their own country? They can practice dentistry after 5-6 years.
That's awesome🙂

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

I didn't make this thread to argue over what some countries offer, a BDS or DDS/DMD. I am just trying to point out that this system of getting into dental school after 4 years of undergrad seems a bit of waste of time and money.

I prefer the system some countries have. Getting into a dental student right after highschool so that a student doesn't waste so much time/money and can look elsewhere if it doesn't work out.

This is just my thought.
And yeah, if someone with a BDS want to come to US to practice, they will probably have to go through 2+ years of additional training. But what about those who chose to stay in their own country? They can practice dentistry after 5-6 years.
That's awesome🙂

I completely agree. If I could do it over again, definitely would chosen not to stay in North America.

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

Both systems have the same goal at the end and produce competent dentists. Both have their own pros and cons. I wouldn't say one is more superior or inferior than the other. It's just different. But it's probably best to study in the country/region you intend to practice in 🙂

 

[sbesbesbe]

Both systems have the same goal at the end and produce competent dentists. Both have their own pros and cons. I wouldn't say one is more superior or inferior than the other. It's just different. But it's probably best to study in the country/region you intend to practice in 🙂

This is definitely easy for someone who has made it to dental school can say. When I get into a dental school, I can probably say the same thing but for a predent, the uncertainty and the worrying about the "what if..." everyday is agonizing.

Anyways, guess you can't change the past! Good luck to all the predents out there!

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

Both systems have the same goal at the end and produce competent dentists. Both have their own pros and cons. I wouldn't say one is more superior or inferior than the other. It's just different. But it's probably best to study in the country/region you intend to practice in 🙂

The thing is, Mr Seamonkey, you are very right to say that it is best to study in the country you intend to practice in, but (1) what if I didn't know where I want to practice? I thought it was a bit unfair to ask a teenager to make that decision, and once you have finally realized what you want to do for a career, and where you want to do it, it is already too late to decide where to attend dental school. (2) What if you have to move to a different country when your wife has been assigned a job? You would have to choose between either to become separated from her for a long periods of time or to stop practicing dentistry.

It'd be much easier to have reciprocal accreditation agreement.

*not all dentists will flood into USA because there are some very strict immigration laws.

 

[uva09]

Lady Jack Wills: I'm sorry, but you are wrong.



Did you suffer from a brain lapse? How am I wrong? You wrote: "all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees" Key word: receive.

I am not arguing that the BDS is not equivalent to those other degrees. I never once implied or stated anything of the sort. I simply listed other degrees - which conflicts with your original statement. If you are conferred a BDent, it's not also a BDS. It's still a different degree regardless of any equivalency. A DMD may be completely equivalent to a DDS in the US but they are still different degrees. There are also numerous different Bachelors degrees in the US that are equivalent. For example, if someone was conferred an AB in History, you would not then say that person received a BA, regardless of colloquial equivalence.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

I'm really sorry, but you are not making much of a strong case.

BA is Bachelor of Arts, AB is artium baccalaureus (when translated into English is exactly bachelor of arts, with artium being the genitive singular) Come on now, you are pre dental, you are smart and should know this!

I will message you, so we won't be torturing the public with these arguments. 😉

Lady Jack Wills: I'm sorry, but you are wrong.



Did you suffer from a brain lapse? How am I wrong? You wrote: "all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees" Key word: receive.

I am not arguing that the BDS is not equivalent to those other degrees. I never once implied or stated anything of the sort. I simply listed other degrees - which conflicts with your original statement. If you are conferred a BDent, it's not also a BDS. It's still a different degree regardless of any equivalency. A DMD may be completely equivalent to a DDS in the US but they are still different degrees. There are also numerous different Bachelors degrees in the US that are equivalent. For example, if someone was conferred an AB in History, you would not then say that person received a BA, regardless of colloquial equivalence.

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

The thing is, Mr Seamonkey, you are very right to say that it is best to study in the country you intend to practice in, but (1) what if I didn't know where I want to practice? I thought it was a bit unfair to ask a teenager to make that decision, and once you have finally realized what you want to do for a career, and where you want to do it, it is already too late to decide where to attend dental school. (2) What if you have to move to a different country when your wife has been assigned a job? You would have to choose between either to become separated from her for a long periods of time or to stop practicing dentistry.

It'd be much easier to have reciprocal accreditation agreement.

*not all dentists will flood into USA because there are some very strict immigration laws.

My comment was mainly in reference to some people (teenagers really) who are bent upon going abroad to study because "its faster" and coming back here to practice. I don't know how difficult it is for U.S/Canadian trained dentists to get jobs abroad, however we know a dentist trained in another country can't just come here and start/join a practice. If a dentist needs to move from his/her country, that's one thing. But if you know from the start that you want to practice in X country, it's probably wise to study and get your qualifications there in order to avoid problems later on.

Plus I don't think it's unfair for a teenager to make that decision. If you can make a serious career decision that involves a ton of hard work, you can have an idea as to where to practice.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

My comment was mainly in reference to some people (teenagers really) who are bent upon going abroad to study because "its faster" and coming back here to practice. I don't know how difficult it is for U.S/Canadian trained dentists to get jobs abroad, however we know a dentist trained in another country can't just come here and start/join a practice. If a dentist needs to move from his/her country, that's one thing. But if you know from the start that you want to practice in X country, it's probably wise to study and get your qualifications there in order to avoid problems later on.

Plus I don't think it's unfair for a teenager to make that decision. If you can make a serious career decision that involves a ton of hard work, you can have an idea as to where to practice.

and what's your take on situation (2)?

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

and what's your take on situation (2)?

My comment was mainly in reference to some people (teenagers really) who are bent upon going abroad to study because "its faster" and coming back here to practice. I don't know how difficult it is for U.S/Canadian trained dentists to get jobs abroad, however we know a dentist trained in another country can't just come here and start/join a practice. If a dentist needs to move from his/her country, that's one thing. But if you know from the start that you want to practice in X country, it's probably wise to study and get your qualifications there in order to avoid problems later on.

Plus I don't think it's unfair for a teenager to make that decision. If you can make a serious career decision that involves a ton of hard work, you can have an idea as to where to practice.

Then you move and do what you have to in order to become a practicing dentist at that place. I mean, what else are you going to do?

 

[yappy]

wrong post

PS: thought I would comment after all...

If you cannot cut it to get into dental school that doesnt mean the whole system needs to be reformed. Not everyone is cut out for it and due to a limited amount of resources only so many can be trained. HS is a poor prediction of what someones academic abilities are (at least HS in the US). Therefore, show up as an undergrad or embrace that you may just not be cut out for dental school. Infact, if you cannot cut it in UG you most likely never were.

To be a professional you need all the knoweldge and training. Not just the practical bit to get by. Practicing dentistry or medicine isn't the same as some sort of technical trade.

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

Then you move and do what you have to in order to become a practicing dentist at that place. I mean, what else are you going to do?

That's the thing. As it has been discussed many times, it is not always easy to become a practicing dentist in a new place. Foreign trained dentists can't just do what MDs do, by passing Step I, II, and III of the USMLE exam, and maybe year additional year of residency, to practice.

When I lived in Italy, I paid 3x the average fees to see an American trained dentist in Milan. At the time I was convinced that American dentists would be better dentists because they would had 4 additional years of undergrad before dental school. But now, I am not so sure any more. Maybe the BDS would be better because they would have more clinical practice (from their 5 year program).

 

[433439]

I'm actually all for the US/Canada system when it comes to having all these pre-requisites for Dental School. It's because I feel that your undergraduate years are so important when it comes to building your character and to develop as an individual. For countries that have students enter and earn your BDS, B.Dent, MDS or whichever equivilant, I am not in any position to say that they are any less qualified as trained dentists than we are. BUT, from my own experience (and I believe many current U.S. college students can agree with me on this) is that HS is a terrible indicator of how well you will do in the future; it's very unpredictable. I have friends who are High School Dropouts who are now in undergrad at a T-25 and are applying to Medical School next year with 3.8+ GPAs. Again, terrible high school track record but picked it up; college teaches you lessons that you can't learn anywhere else.

 

[sbesbesbe]

I'm actually all for the US/Canada system when it comes to having all these pre-requisites for Dental School. It's because I feel that your undergraduate years are so important when it comes to building your character and to develop as an individual. For countries that have students enter and earn your BDS, B.Dent, MDS or whichever equivilant, I am not in any position to say that they are any less qualified as trained dentists than we are. BUT, from my own experience (and I believe many current U.S. college students can agree with me on this) is that HS is a terrible indicator of how well you will do in the future; it's very unpredictable. I have friends who are High School Dropouts who are now in undergrad at a T-25 and are applying to Medical School next year with 3.8+ GPAs. Again, terrible high school track record but picked it up; college teaches you lessons that you can't learn anywhere else.

You know, I must say I cannot disagree with you on this.
Maybe I prefer other countries' system much more since I did so much better in highschool and to see some of the people i know who decided to study abroad already in medical/dental school makes me feel behind in a way.

But hopefully things will work out. And undergrad years did change the way I think about life very differently than I did in highschool.

Hope for the best👍

 

[Lady Jack Wills]

wrong post

PS: thought I would comment after all...

If you cannot cut it to get into dental school that doesnt mean the whole system needs to be reformed. Not everyone is cut out for it and due to a limited amount of resources only so many can be trained. HS is a poor prediction of what someones academic abilities are (at least HS in the US). Therefore, show up as an undergrad or embrace that you may just not be cut out for dental school. Infact, if you cannot cut it in UG you most likely never were.

To be a professional you need all the knoweldge and training. Not just the practical bit to get by. Practicing dentistry or medicine isn't the same as some sort of technical trade.

You also make a very interesting point about the high school vs undergrad system. I think there are a few question we need to ask ourselves (1) why is high school a poor predictor in the US (and not in countries where medical school do use high school performance as a good indicator of future success)? Is our primary educational system that flawed as Obama had argued in 2011 State of the Union speech? (2) Are we as a society too forgiving? Such that, we keep giving students more chances to prove themselves 'cut out for it' by saying that 'it is okay if you didn't do well in high school, you can always transfer'; 'it is okay if you didn't do well in undergrad, you can always do a masters'.

To me as a patient, dentistry and medicine are technical trades. I pay a doctor/dentist for his service to treat my body, and the quality of his service depends not only on his passion/compassion, but also on his practical/hand skill and knowledge.

 

[yappy]

I think it is to our advantage that we allow people to develop in college prior to them being granted admissoin in to professional educational programs. It's not about getting a "chance". It's about a more difficult vetting process that occurs suring someones adult years going over college studies rather than someones childhood going over basic curriculum.

I've seen so many all stars in HS not cut it in college - pulling straight B's because while in HS their success was dependent on their diligence - in college when the material got harder they lacked the intellect. I have a friend from Egypt who described this happening alot. Students who should not be in med school got their because they did well in easy HS courses and just did not pan out when it got down to the real material. I dont think we're too forgiving. We allow people to compete at a higher level: instead of getting A's in HS chemistry; get A's in college P-chem.

Your last point indicates I may not have been clear. What I meant by trade/technician vs professional is that in order to practice medicine or dentistry you should not rely on decision trees or 'cook book' stuff but logic and reason.

A professional can troubleshoot, solve noval situations, and come up with individual solutions because you have a complete education and deep understanding of the subject. They're the expert.

You also make a very interesting point about the high school vs undergrad system. I think there are a few question we need to ask ourselves (1) why is high school a poor predictor in the US (and not in countries where medical school do use high school performance as a good indicator of future success)? Is our primary educational system that flawed as Obama had argued in 2011 State of the Union speech? (2) Are we as a society too forgiving? Such that, we keep giving students more chances to prove themselves 'cut out for it' by saying that 'it is okay if you didn't do well in high school, you can always transfer'; 'it is okay if you didn't do well in undergrad, you can always do a masters'.

To me as a patient, dentistry and medicine are technical trades. I pay a doctor/dentist for his service to treat my body, and the quality of his service depends not only on his passion/compassion, but also on his practical/hand skill and knowledge.

 

[uva09]

Hah...

If two degrees are equivalent, colloquially or formally, it does not mean the degrees are plainly interchangeable. They are still different degrees. And any graduate will have a specific degree conferred and noted on a diploma. A Bachelors degree is an umbrella term that encompasses different types of Bachelors degrees. BA, AB, BE, BS, BBA, etc. - all are different types of Bachelors degrees. While they are colloquially equivalent, an individual *receives* a specific variant. You do not receive all variants nor do you receive the umbrella term of just *bachelors* degree.

You made the statement: all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive a BDS degrees...

This is incorrect. Had you made the statement: all the dentists in the world (expect for these three countries) receive some variant of a bachelors degree in Dentistry... You would have been more correct.

Another simple example: All US Dental School graduates receive a DDS degree? False. Many receive a DMD degree. All US Dental School graduates receive some variant of a doctoral in Dentistry? Better.

Similarly, if you said, all history graduates of 4-year undergraduate programs in the US receive a BA degree, you would be incorrect for the exact same reasons. BA is a specific variant of Bachelors degree, and while equivalent to other degrees such as the AB - they are still different variants and you *receive* one or the other or another variant.

Though I appreciate the Latin lesson... 🙂

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

I'm actually all for the US/Canada system when it comes to having all these pre-requisites for Dental School. It's because I feel that your undergraduate years are so important when it comes to building your character and to develop as an individual. For countries that have students enter and earn your BDS, B.Dent, MDS or whichever equivilant, I am not in any position to say that they are any less qualified as trained dentists than we are. BUT, from my own experience (and I believe many current U.S. college students can agree with me on this) is that HS is a terrible indicator of how well you will do in the future; it's very unpredictable. I have friends who are High School Dropouts who are now in undergrad at a T-25 and are applying to Medical School next year with 3.8+ GPAs. Again, terrible high school track record but picked it up; college teaches you lessons that you can't learn anywhere else.

Yep, this.

Earlier in the thread, some posters were complaining about having to take courses that one will not need in the future. However college is also there to give you a well rounded education. There are English and History majors who will have to take math and/or biology in college too. Undergrad also allows you to grow up because you break out of your comfort zone and have to deal with new people and new situations.

HS indeed is not the best indicator as to how well one will do in the future. In other countries, it may be, but in the US, it's not. Maybe I'm just old, but teenagers, regardless of their GPA, can be extremely annoying and immature. I can't imagine a bunch of 18 year olds as D1 students.