Backup option for PHD?

[ITtoPsych]

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I want to know what do people do who don't get into PHD after multiple attempts?

I have so far heard the following other degrees/options but none of them seem a decent backup for PHD if one is interested in more than therapy ( I am not interested and can't afford psyD). Please share if there are other options!
1. Masters in social work
2. Masters in counseling/mental health counseling/clinical counseling
3. Masters in School psych
4. Masters in I/o psych
5. Other "coaching" / "therapist" tracks
6. Terminal master's in clinical psychology - in my state you can't be licensed, so basically limited to being "assistant".

 

[WisNeuro]

I think we need more info. What do you mean by "more than therapy?" What are your career goals?

 

[ITtoPsych]

I think we need more info. What do you mean by "more than therapy?" What are your career goals?

Sorry !

I am interested in teaching, research, program development, assessments/testing/evaluation. I meant therapy isn't my main/primary interest and the other options I listed all tend to be focused on counseling/therapy. Specific to therapy, I am very interested in clinical population ( development disabilities, pediatric bipolar, etc).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If you don't feel you'd be competitive for medical school and/or don't have the time and opportunity to build up those credentials (and I would consider med school an alternative to a doctoral psych program, not a backup, to be sure), there's always the NP or PA route. Income would be better than most masters-level routes, but you'd likely need to pursue significant additional training to be competent in psychotherapy (or perhaps other areas in which you might be interested, such as research). And testing may never be a viable option.

On the plus side, you'd likely see plenty of bipolar (and plenty of personality disorders misdiagnosed as bipolar).

 

[Ollie123]

If you are willing to drop the 1-on-1 clinical piece entirely, you could open up a large array of options. PhD in Public Health being the first that springs to mind. You could still be involved in the development/implementation of large-scale clinical efforts. An MPH would allow some of that as well. There are a myriad of other related degrees that would provide opportunities for research/teaching/program admin/evaluation work to be done too.

 

[ITtoPsych]

If you don't feel you'd be competitive for medical school and/or don't have the time and opportunity to build up those credentials (and I would consider med school an alternative to a doctoral psych program, not a backup, to be sure), there's always the NP or PA route. Income would be better than most masters-level routes, but you'd likely need to pursue significant additional training to be competent in psychotherapy (or perhaps other areas in which you might be interested, such as research). And testing may never be a viable option.

On the plus side, you'd likely see plenty of bipolar (and plenty of personality disorders misdiagnosed as bipolar).

Hmmm I see. My husband is a transplant nephrologist so I have a good understanding of physicians and so PA as a career isn't for me.

Given the admissions statistics for PHDs, there have to be quite a few very competitive applicants who want what a PHD offers but due to the intense competition couldn't get into any program. I wanted to make sure I am not missing some other options !🙂

 

[ITtoPsych]

If you are willing to drop the 1-on-1 clinical piece entirely, you could open up a large array of options. PhD in Public Health being the first that springs to mind. You could still be involved in the development/implementation of large-scale clinical efforts. An MPH would allow some of that as well. There are a myriad of other related degrees that would provide opportunities for research/teaching/program admin/evaluation work to be done too.

Thanks! I am going to look into these, I know several people with MPH ( on way to MD) whom I can bug!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If you already know that, then you're ahead of the game at this point.

As Ollie mentioned, a public health degree (MPH or PhD) could provide some of what you're looking for, especially if then coupled with a masters-level mental health degree.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, there's always money in the banana stand.

 

[deleted343839]

I am interested in teaching, research, program development, assessments/testing/evaluation. I meant therapy isn't my main/primary interest and the other options I listed all tend to be focused on counseling/therapy. Specific to therapy, I am very interested in clinical population ( development disabilities, pediatric bipolar, etc).

Don't overlook nursing. A master's degree in nursing can open up a lot of doors in the healthcare world and would rule out very few of the activities you listed. If you want to run clinic- or hospital-based programs in a healthcare setting, you may be more competitive with a nursing background than with a public health background. Nursing is also one of the few fields in which you can continue to be gainfully employed and work toward a doctoral degree if that is your eventual goal.

The other field you might consider is pediatric OT, though you'd need to earn a doctorate to do research or teaching.

 

[ITtoPsych]

If you already know that, then you're ahead of the game at this point.

As Ollie mentioned, a public health degree (MPH or PhD) could provide some of what you're looking for, especially if then coupled with a masters-level mental health degree.

Well, there's always money in the banana stand.

Thanks for the encouragement 😉

 

[ITtoPsych]

Don't overlook nursing. A master's degree in nursing can open up a lot of doors in the healthcare world and would rule out very few of the activities you listed. If you want to run clinic- or hospital-based programs in a healthcare setting, you may be more competitive with a nursing background than with a public health background. Nursing is also one of the few fields in which you can continue to be gainfully employed and work toward a doctoral degree if that is your eventual goal.

The other field you might consider is pediatric OT, though you'd need to earn a doctorate to do research or teaching.

I am really interested in psychology. I have thought about Psychiatric nurse as an option. Doesn't excite me as much. Research and teaching and testing rank higher in my interest level than supervision/admin. But that being said, you are very right that nursing is an option which allows to work towards a doctoral degree. Since this is a career change for me, I don't know if I will be alive though by the time I get to that doctorate 😉 LOL !

 

[bmedclinic]

Well, there's always money in the banana stand.

probably the all time best post I've ever seen on here. Well done.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Why not look at the MSW option? I was just talking to our hospital's social worker and she is very satisfied with the career opportunities and prospects and is only limited by not having the time to accomplish them. She also expressed concern about the ever-burgeoning numbers of LPC and MFT grads that are very loosely trained and how that doesn't bode well for their prospects. NASW has done a pretty good job with national credentialing standards in her opinion and my observations of the field are consistent with that perspective.

 

[eremitestar]

There are also DSW and PhD in social work programs. They seem to be aimed at LCSWs who want to do more teaching and research, and the people I know who've gone that route have been able to continue working as LCSWs while in their programs. I don't know a ton about this option, or how competitive it is, but it could be worth looking into.

 

[ForensicPhD]

I did my masters first. While most people from my program went on to do therapy only, I did research and assessments (in a variety of settings). So LICSW/LMHCs aren't necessarily tied to therapy only. You still have plenty of options with master level licenses.

Maybe it would be helpful for you think about what sort of setting you would want to work in as well. I wonder if school psychology could be a great fit for you. Lots of testing and program development, and you can focus on developmental delays. Plus great hours 🙂

 

[WisNeuro]

probably the all time best post I've ever seen on here. Well done.

You're welcome 🙂

 

[clinpsyc87]

There are a lot of psych MS programs that are basically feeders. It would close the door to a couple of PhD programs but not all. Drexel for instance has a good track record for neuro/clin PhD afterwards elsewhere.

 

[ITtoPsych]

Why not look at the MSW option? I was just talking to our hospital's social worker and she is very satisfied with the career opportunities and prospects and is only limited by not having the time to accomplish them. She also expressed concern about the ever-burgeoning numbers of LPC and MFT grads that are very loosely trained and how that doesn't bode well for their prospects. NASW has done a pretty good job with national credentialing standards in her opinion and my observations of the field are consistent with that perspective.

This was one of the first options I looked into. Apart from googling and reading up on social work, I also met for detailed informational interview with three social workers( one each from community/school, disabilities organization, hospital autism clinic) and I also met with the director of admissions at my local univeristy for social work ( one of the top programs). I respect social workers tremendously ( all negativity considered) but it is not for me.

 

[ITtoPsych]

I did my masters first. While most people from my program went on to do therapy only, I did research and assessments (in a variety of settings). So LICSW/LMHCs aren't necessarily tied to therapy only. You still have plenty of options with master level licenses.

Maybe it would be helpful for you think about what sort of setting you would want to work in as well. I wonder if school psychology could be a great fit for you. Lots of testing and program development, and you can focus on developmental delays. Plus great hours 🙂

School psychology is a close one! 🙂 By nature of the system though, school psych's are not able to do much beyond the rules/regulations. Goes for anyone working at school, but specially special ed folks. It's also limited to schools since it's a master's level license and so independent practice, teaching etc are not possible sadly. Plus there are really very few job openings ( even less compared to the bleak scene for phds as per my research). I have interviewed school psych as well. Looks like it's closest to a backup option 🙂

To answer your question: My "ideal" setting is in academia, with a small side practice , second preference is in a pediatric unit in hospital.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

School psychology is a close one! 🙂 By nature of the system though, school psych's are not able to do much beyond the rules/regulations. Goes for anyone working at school, but specially special ed folks. It's also limited to schools since it's a master's level license and so independent practice, teaching etc are not possible sadly. Plus there are really very few job openings ( even less compared to the bleak scene for phds as per my research). I have interviewed school psych as well. Looks like it's closest to a backup option 🙂

To answer your question: My "ideal" setting is in academia, with a small side practice , second preference is in a pediatric unit in hospital.

There are doctoral-level school psych programs (my grad school had one, for example), which would increase the options you have for practicing both within and outside of schools, assuming you get appropriate training.

 

[ClinicalABA]

School psychology is a close one! 🙂 By nature of the system though, school psych's are not able to do much beyond the rules/regulations. Goes for anyone working at school, but specially special ed folks. It's also limited to schools since it's a master's level license and so independent practice, teaching etc are not possible sadly. Plus there are really very few job openings ( even less compared to the bleak scene for phds as per my research). I have interviewed school psych as well. Looks like it's closest to a backup option 🙂

To answer your question: My "ideal" setting is in academia, with a small side practice , second preference is in a pediatric unit in hospital.

You might consider an advanced degree and certification in ABA. Plenty of academic options, private practice opportunities, and need within pediatric settings.

 

[ITtoPsych]

You might consider an advanced degree and certification in ABA. Plenty of academic options, private practice opportunities, and need within pediatric settings.

Yes BCBAs and good ABA tutors are in high demand. I haven't seen this line of study associated with research but I will look some more. I am familiar with day to day working of BCBAs/ABA tutors catering to kids with autism/adhd etc. and am also familiar with basic ABA and it doesn't interest me enough to persue as a career. But if research and academic options are possible, I would definitely find out more. Thanks!!!

 

[ITtoPsych]

There are doctoral-level school psych programs (my grad school had one, for example), which would increase the options you have for practicing both within and outside of schools, assuming you get appropriate training.

Was it fully funded like PHD programs in clinic psych? Also from what I understand such programs are lesser in number than the PHD programs, which would make admission equally competitive. Correct me if I am wrong.

P.S: Actually I will research into this option. I have a univ nearby which seems to offer this PHD so I am going to get first hand info. I would be interested why would anyone persue PHD when master's level is sufficient for most jobs. 🙂

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Was it fully funded like PHD programs in clinic psych? Also from what I understand such programs are lesser in number than the PHD programs, which would make admission equally competitive. Correct me if I am wrong.

P.S: Actually I will research into this option. I have a univ nearby which seems to offer this PHD so I am going to get first hand info. I would be interested why would anyone persue PHD when master's level is sufficient for most jobs. 🙂

It was fully-funded, yes, and the students who were interested would sometimes be allowed to cross-train by completing one or more practicum placements with the child clinical psych students. They also, of course, received plenty of training at the on-campus lab school, and were often able to implement their own teaching/program evaluation initiatives in said school.

I would imagine people pursue the doctorate for increased depth of training and professional flexibility (e.g., with appropriate training, such individuals can practice independently in the community such as would any other practicing psychologist, I believe). We have some school psych doctoral students here on the board, though, so they'll likely be able to provide much more information on this than can I.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Yes BCBAs and good ABA tutors are in high demand. I haven't seen this line of study associated with research but I will look some more. I am familiar with day to day working of BCBAs/ABA tutors catering to kids with autism/adhd etc. and am also familiar with basic ABA and it doesn't interest me enough to persue as a career. But if research and academic options are possible, I would definitely find out more. Thanks!!!

Research is a major focus of ABA, particularly beyond the Master's level. While ASD is still the biggest area of research, there's a lot of work on things like pediatric feeding problems, sleep, treatment compliance, and organizational issues. ABA related Ph.D. programs are primarily about research and preparation for academic careers. At the practitioner level (masters level included), it's not uncommon to find employer research/dissemination requirements.

 

[ITtoPsych]

There are a lot of psych MS programs that are basically feeders. It would close the door to a couple of PhD programs but not all. Drexel for instance has a good track record for neuro/clin PhD afterwards elsewhere.

Why would it close doors to some? I am aware that clinic psych have majority incoming undergrads but didn't know there some phds programs who would close doors( even if not stated upfront on their website)!

 

[clinpsyc87]

Oh yeah. Both of the schools I've been to absolutely will not accept ms students, no exceptions. My advisor literally said she drops them in the trash unread

 

[ITtoPsych]

Oh yeah. Both of the schools I've been to absolutely will not accept ms students, no exceptions. My advisor literally said she drops them in the trash unread

This is not about MS vs. MA right? You mean they don't want anyone with a master's education?

 

[clinpsyc87]

This is not about MS vs. MA right? You mean they don't want anyone with a master's education?

Yeah no graduate education, even in clinical psychology from a top school.

 

[ITtoPsych]

Yeah no graduate education, even in clinical psychology from a top school.

I see! So far I have not come across such programs ( but I am very much in early stages of combing through the huge number of phd programs in US). Do they openly state this? I have a MS in unrelated field ( comp science) so I don't want to waste my time persuing those programs!

 

[clinpsyc87]

I see! So far I have not come across such programs ( but I am very much in early stages of combing through the huge number of phd programs in US). Do they openly state this? I have a MS in unrelated field ( comp science) so I don't want to waste my time persuing those programs!

They will deny this all day every day! One of these programs says phone interviews are fine but refuses to admit a phone interview applicant, because they just showed you how little they care.
Edit: your masters is fine, I meant in psychology because they don't want you coming in with a theoretical approach etc. A ms in non psych is different

 

[ITtoPsych]

They will deny this all day every day! One of these programs says phone interviews are fine but refuses to admit a phone interview applicant, because they just showed you how little they care.
Edit: your masters is fine, I meant in psychology because they don't want you coming in with a theoretical approach etc. A ms in non psych is different

Got it. It makes me a little happy actually. I don't want to do a second Master's( terminal) anyways 🙂 I would rather spend all the time getting my research experience. Thanks, I feel really happy now. LOL.

 

[clinpsyc87]

Everyone on this board will hate me saying so but it makes you a much better clinician and researcher to get a terminal MS first, I have yet to meet a direct admit with more skill than ego

 

[ITtoPsych]

Everyone on this board will hate me saying so but it makes you a much better clinician and researcher to get a terminal MS first, I have yet to meet a direct admit with more skill than ego

Well I am on this board and don't hate you, so....🙂

If programs prefer candidates without terminal MS, then I think there would be some truth to that logic. And the fact that counseling phds prefer MS while clinical programs don't, says to me that a terminal masters makes you a better clinician but not a better researcher. The ego thing is a different topic🙂 I want to be a competitive candidate and I respect if that's programs want...which is no terminal MS !

 

[clinpsyc87]

SOME programs. Some programs will see the research you've done in your ms and take you like happened to me. It's a full spectrum

 

[ITtoPsych]

Right. You said originally some doors will close.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Anecdotal--My program took both non-masters and masters students, and no one (myself included) ever noticed/mentioned noticing any substantive and consistent differences in either clinical or research skill.

I can see how some programs may not want to take their own masters folks, just how some programs don't like to take their own bachelors folks. Beyond that, I've not heard of any widespread bias against them, although I'm sure there are programs out there which do tacitly prefer one or the other.

 

[ITtoPsych]

Anecdotal--My program took both non-masters and masters students, and no one (myself included) ever noticed/mentioned noticing any substantive and consistent differences in either clinical or research skill.

I can see how some programs may not want to take their own masters folks, just how some programs don't like to take their own bachelors folks. Beyond that, I've not heard of any widespread bias against them, although I'm sure there are programs out there which do tacitly prefer one or the other.

As per the Insider's guide to graduate programs, the data shows counseling phds consistently take majority of master's students. It's interesting that SOME clinical prorgrams have an opposite approach. But as per the data in that guide, majority of incoming in clinical programs are with bachelors. So there is a trend but as you said not a 100% thing.
The takeaway for me is, a master's won't really help me if I am interested in clincial phds and not truly interested in a terminal degree. I will be taking psych courses as a non degree student but that's because I have zero psych credits.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As per the Insider's guide to graduate programs, the data shows counseling phds consistently take majority of master's students. It's interesting that SOME clinical prorgrams have an opposite approach. But as per the data in that guide, majority of incoming in clinical programs are with bachelors. So there is a trend but as you said not a 100% thing.
The takeaway for me is, a master's won't really help me if I am interested in clincial phds and not truly interested in a terminal degree. I will be taking psych courses as a non degree student but that's because I have zero psych credits.

There are of course other factors that could be at play as well--e.g., perhaps non-traditional students are more likely to get a masters and are also more attracted to counseling programs. Counseling psych programs do seem to be more likely to actually require (or state an active preference for) a masters, although this may still reflect the minority of counseling programs; I'm not sure on that.

Also, I don't know that I'd say there's really a big clinical/research preference split between counseling and clinical programs nowadays. Lots of clinical programs train primary clinicians, and lots of counseling programs train career researchers/academics.

In the end, I'd say go based on each individuals program's (and POI's) interests, stated philosophies, and available training experiences (and on how well you stack up against the average admitted applicant) rather than on its clinical or counseling classification.

 

[WisNeuro]

Everyone on this board will hate me saying so but it makes you a much better clinician and researcher to get a terminal MS first, I have yet to meet a direct admit with more skill than ego

Just curious, but how does one determine this? How are we measuring clinical skill? And what are the metrics that make one a better researcher?

 

[clinpsyc87]

Just curious, but how does one determine this? How are we measuring clinical skill? And what are the metrics that make one a better researcher?

There are lots of ways that programs actively measure clinical performance. And I had to teach an impromptu class to direct admit cohort members about how to do a literature review. As far as AA's experience I will readily admit that really top first tier programs probably do a better job at screening direct admits who did a lot of actual research, my problem is when a student is able to sell the deception that they were actively involved in research when all they did was data entry and pretended to have research competence. My experience thus far is they are aggressively insistent that they have the answers because they read something somewhere without the group feedback/criticism and hands on research work they would have had at a research focused ms like Drexel that I named

 

[WisNeuro]

My question was more, how is this measured outside of one program? How is this measured as people go on to clinical and research careers? As someone who has reviewed hundreds of applications over the years and mentored dozens of students, I have not seen anything to corroborate that notion. Just wondering if there were metrics that I was missing.

 

[clinpsyc87]

The takeaway for me is, a master's won't really help me if I am interested in clincial phds and not truly interested in a terminal degree.

Sure, I think we can all agree on that. But the thread is called "backup options for phd" and for those that don't get in, an ms can be a viable option to improve and try again

 

[clinpsyc87]

My question was more, how is this measured outside of one program? How is this measured as people go on to clinical and research careers? As someone who has reviewed hundreds of applications over the years and mentored dozens of students, I have not seen anything to corroborate that notion. Just wondering if there were metrics that I was missing.

I remember years ago when I was reading this forum to get tips to get into graduate school the threads seemed to be relatively populated by people who agreed with my point and people (direct admits) who got angry by this sentiment. This has been the experience of plenty of faculty and opposed by plenty of people. Eh.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm not opposing the notion that people with master's and then admits into PhD cannot be just as good or better in research or clinical work. I've seen it at times myself. I just see no evidence suggesting that they are better at those things on average. Especially when we are talking about things that are not directly measured (e.g., clinical acumen). Now, the research stuff, we can measure. # of articles, # of citations, impact factor, etc. On that case, I would imagine that your notion would actually be disproven fairly readily. Due to many factors, R1's happen to be places that prefer direct admits and eschew the MS first crowd, so there is an imbalance in resources.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Everyone on this board will hate me saying so but it makes you a much better clinician and researcher to get a terminal MS first, I have yet to meet a direct admit with more skill than ego

That would be a pretty tough claim to substantiate and sounds pretty biased to be quite frank.

 

[ITtoPsych]

Sure, I think we can all agree on that. But the thread is called "backup options for phd" and for those that don't get in, an ms can be a viable option to improve and try again

I was assuming a person has given up on the phd option and trying a backup career. But yes, certainly a MS is a very viable option to improve specially if a person like me couldn't get in because of lack of training/research a master's would give.

 

[clinpsyc87]

I'm not opposing the notion that people with master's and then admits into PhD cannot be just as good or better in research or clinical work. I've seen it at times myself. I just see no evidence suggesting that they are better at those things on average. Especially when we are talking about things that are not directly measured (e.g., clinical acumen). Now, the research stuff, we can measure. # of articles, # of citations, impact factor, etc. On that case, I would imagine that your notion would actually be disproven fairly readily. Due to many factors, R1's happen to be places that prefer direct admits and eschew the MS first crowd, so there is an imbalance in resources.

I think my point as you describe it can be disproven. A. I stated that top tier programs differentiate research competent undergrads from fakes better than average programs. B. They have to work a lot harder although they often do and graduate equal. C. They're a drain on all the ms students who have to socialize them to realize that despite their mis-self perceptions they can actually learn other ways to do things, which they seem to learn over time

 

[smalltownpsych]

Oh and I am not hating you for saying it. I didn't go either route so I have my own opinions on what makes me a good clinician. Of course, I might be a bit biased about that. 😉