Bad Experience/Talk with a current podiatrist

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FootPro

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  1. Pre-Podiatry
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I shadowed a podiatrist that I will keep anonymous. I had a decent experience and I felt that he had a solid patient load throughout the afternoon. We got talking about a career in podiatry and the future of heatlhcare. He told me to think twice about a field in podiatry and medical school for that matter. He felt that a $200,000 pricetag on the four year degree is way too steep and feels that the opportunity cost is lopsided against us. He also stated that his surgical load has decreased since 2006. Additionally, he talked about the new health care plan and he feels that with the new plan he could loose between 15-30% of his current earnings.

I'm accepted and my deposit is already in place. I'm concerned and I would like some input both pro's and con's. Thanks
 
I understand how you feel however two of my family members are doctors and they still say that anything in the medical field is still something that is evergreen (will never go out of business) and it is a financially safe career.
 
I shadowed a podiatrist that I will keep anonymous. I had a decent experience and I felt that he had a solid patient load throughout the afternoon. We got talking about a career in podiatry and the future of heatlhcare. He told me to think twice about a field in podiatry and medical school for that matter. He felt that a $200,000 pricetag on the four year degree is way too steep and feels that the opportunity cost is lopsided against us. He also stated that his surgical load has decreased since 2006. Additionally, he talked about the new health care plan and he feels that with the new plan he could loose between 15-30% of his current earnings.

I'm accepted and my deposit is already in place. I'm concerned and I would like some input both pro's and con's. Thanks

Was this Pod in private practice? I could see Pods who are in private practice being more negatively affected with the current economic times since they are absorbing 100% of the financial hit.

I think the grass is a little greener if your are a Pod working within in a group/ practice. Your guaranteed a salary no matter how well or bad you do. From the postings of current residents, on these boards, salaries coming out of school could be anywhere from 100K to 130K (depending on your level of training, skills, etc).

So when older Pods, who are in private practice, are taking a financial hit you are still making the money you signed up for no matter what. But maybe I am totally wrong about this...everytime we talk about future jobs and salaries no one who is actually working comes on here and puts things in perspective.

Lastly, everyone, who is studying in the medical field, gets a lot debt...it comes with the territory. Are you really not going to pursue what you love because of this?
 
Was this Pod in private practice? I could see Pods who are in private practice being more negatively affected with the current economic times since they are absorbing 100% of the financial hit.

I think the grass is a little greener if your are a Pod working within in a group/ practice. Your guaranteed a salary no matter how well or bad you do. From the postings of current residents, on these boards, salaries coming out of school could be anywhere from 100K to 130K (depending on your level of training, skills, etc).

So when older Pods, who are in private practice, are taking a financial hit you are still making the money you signed up for no matter what. But maybe I am totally wrong about this...everytime we talk about future jobs and salaries no one who is actually working comes on here and puts things in perspective.

Lastly, everyone, who is studying in the medical field, gets a lot debt...it comes with the territory. Are you really not going to pursue what you love because of this?

I totally agree with most of what you said. But 4 years + 150,000-200,000 of debt and an additional 3 years of residency where you make money but you are still a "student" The point i'm making is that yea you may have job security, you may have a job making 6 figures, but is this worth it? There is a chance that there may be some serious health care reform that will lower our salaries, on top of the fact of a high tuition and debt, not to mention the years spent working and studying towards the goal (instead of working in a job for several years maybe moving up to management etc). I know its negative I just want to state the cons explicitly and get more input.
 
With large debt should come high incentives
 
I totally agree with most of what you said. But 4 years + 150,000-200,000 of debt and an additional 3 years of residency where you make money but you are still a "student" The point i'm making is that yea you may have job security, you may have a job making 6 figures, but is this worth it? There is a chance that there may be some serious health care reform that will lower our salaries, on top of the fact of a high tuition and debt, not to mention the years spent working and studying towards the goal (instead of working in a job for several years maybe moving up to management etc). I know its negative I just want to state the cons explicitly and get more input.

I think that the debt is really scary for all medical students, especially after you have a couple of years and you can see it compounding! However, it's not just podiatry school where you will find this type of debt load. A large percentage of med students will be in the same boat as you.

You're right. You could move up a business chain to a management position at a company and earn $$. But how long will that take in this economy? 6-7 years? You can graduate as a pod and, if you want, be your own boss right away in 7.

Healthcare reform - I don't think that anyone can say, with 100% certainty, what the reform bills will bring to us, as doctors. The bill is thousands of pages long and I'm sure there are legislators who voted for its passage, who have not read it. I personally wouldn't use that as a defining factor as to whether I attended a medical program. Here are some pros and cons IMO, to any medical profession -

Pros: Your job is going to be interesting. You'll be seeing different types of patients and pathology and you'll probably be making a difference in their everyday life.

People will always need doctors. Whatever happens with legislation, people will be seeing doctors, especially pods.

You'll be a surgeon after a 3 year residency. Because our training is already specialized, you won't have to spend 5-7 years in a traditional surgical residency.

Cons: The HUGE debt load. It's insanely daunting. The salaries for pods is all over the spectrum. However, I'm a firm believer in working hard to open opportunities...especially regarding jobs.

You'll constantly have to fend off the people who think you work with kids. :laugh:

I think that was the biggest con for me. It's sometimes aggravating when you have to explain podiatry to your entire extended family over xmas dinner 12 times, but it comes with the job. :luck: in your decision!
 
My take on this issue is, if pharmacists and vets can incur as much debt ($150-200k), earn less, and still be content...then I'm not worried.

Also remember, that $200k price tag also occurs in other fields...this is not a medical or healthcare phenomenon. Teachers, lawyers, engineers, etc. all pay the high price of today's education.
 
My take on this issue is, if pharmacists and vets can incur as much debt ($150-200k), earn less, and still be content...then I'm not worried.

Also remember, that $200k price tag also occurs in other fields...this is not a medical or healthcare phenomenon. Teachers, lawyers, engineers, etc. all pay the high price of today's education.

Not all pods are going to be earning as much as vets and pharms. There is HUGE variance across the board. Also, there is a lot more choice in schools for teachers, lawyers, engineers, and pharmacists. These professions have state schools to attend. Podiatry does not. I used to work in a pharmacy and few of the PharmDs had a debt load comparable to us.

You could definitely take up another medical career, like pharmacy, with a much greater chance of less debt, and make more than a few pods out there. You could also have a much lower income : debt ratio after some of these other programs.
 
Not all pods are going to be earning as much as vets and pharms. There is HUGE variance across the board. Also, there is a lot more choice in schools for teachers, lawyers, engineers, and pharmacists. These professions have state schools to attend. Podiatry does not. I used to work in a pharmacy and few of the PharmDs had a debt load comparable to us.

You could definitely take up another medical career, like pharmacy, with a much greater chance of less debt, and make more than a few pods out there. You could also have a much lower income : debt ratio after some of these other programs.

Not all will earn more than pharm or vet but most will. Whats the average income for pharm, 100k? and vets like 80k?

And not everyone goes to state schools. A ton of my friends decided to go to expensive private schools for their 4 year degree and for med/pt/dental/pharm school...and they are surviving. My oldest brother went to Rush med, $45k/yr, and my other brother goes to midwestern pharmacy, $30k/yr. I will be going to Scholl which is $25k/year. If they can do it then I can do it...with less debt lol.

And even if they did go to state schools, just look at the math. UIC pharm is 14k/yr while scholl pod is 25k/yr, a difference of 11k/year. 11k x 4 = $44k. In Chicago, IL a pharmacist averages $118k/year while a podiatrist averages $170k/year, a difference of $52k/year. As a podiatrist, you will have made up the difference within 1 year...maybe 2 years if you include interest.

Both of the podiatrists I shadowed told me that I was making the best choice of medical careers by entering a procedural field with a short residency. Like you said earlier...you will be a surgeon after a 3yr residency. One of them told me not to worry about paying back my loans. He is a residency director so he knows the amount of debt new grads incur and the contracts that they sign for. The other podiatrist told me that any new podiatrist with decent business skills should be able to pull in atleast $200k in private practice once they are a few years out. And he recently told me that he "is the busiest I have ever been and we are in a recession."
 
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Foot Pro-

Please note that the quoted "average podiatry salaries" in the previous posts are not from a representative sampling of practicing podiatrist. As with most professional salary averages-- they are the averages of those that reply. Also they are likely GROSS not Net salary. The comments expressed by the podiatrist you shadowed are reflective of many podiatrist.

My 2 cents: If your true desire is to practice podiatry then go for it. If you main motive for attending podiatry school is to earn the quoted figures in the previous post, don't do it. That is the exception more than the norm. If your desire is to practice medicine-- not necessarily podiatry then continue to shadow and talk with other podiatrist before accepting student loans.
 
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This year my old dentist was arrested for drug abuse which stemmed from depression, and 2 years ago an MD doctor at our local hospital killed himself. These things happen in ANY career, don't let them ruin the whole field. If every other podiatrist was telling you to avoid it then we'd have a problem. OP, I've *shadowed* 6 podiatrists, all loved the field and made a good living. I've *talked* to over 30 podiatrists (via email, facebook, myspace, hospital, etc) and most were happy with the field. Personally, I've only met 2 people who were incredibly bitter about the field.

And seriously people, when is the last time you heard an older doctor complain about student loans? Hardly ever (I never have). You know why? Because they are paying them off just fine or have already paid them off! Get this into your head: loans and bills will NEVER end, and our salary is way above the average salary of the American worker which helps us to pay them off. What about the Harvard graduate who becomes a school teacher? Or the Georgetown graduate who spends years earning their Phd to make crap salary? Atleast we will generally be recieving a decent salary and know we are needed and are experts in our field (NOONE will know the foot and ankle better than a podiatrist). Plus you knew what you were getting into and the amount of debt you would have when you would first start. So grow a pair, pay them off, and quit b*tching. This is life and it often blows but you get through it. The grass always seems greener on the other side, but it isn't. People on these boards will often say "go into business if you want a shorter way to make a lot of money"...but really? Do you mind 9-5 for the rest of your life wearing a tie to work and stopping off at starbucks every morning so you can load up on caffeine and sit behind a desk or cubicle doing monotonous work while being bossed around by some douche with higher authority than you? Or perhaps being a waiter at Olive Garden or a cashier at JC Penny's is the high life which will bring you true happiness? Get real. Relatively speaking, medicine is one of the few fields that offers some type of security and allows you to directly help others. And like any field, it has its ups and downs. Deal with it.
 
spo01 certainly didn't sugar coat his sentiments, but he did make some good points.

Although this may sound a little "corny", first and foremost you must enjoy what you do, and the financial consideration has to be secondary. If you're making a lot of money and you're miserable, what sense does that make?

However, of course we all want to also make a decent living, especially if there was a significant financial investment. But whether or not you spend that money on an MD degree, DPM degree or MBA from Wharton School of Business from the University of Pennsylvania, there is NO guarantee of your future income.

I know DPM's that make pitiful incomes, and I know of two excellent MD's in my area that just closed up their office because they couldn't meet payroll. I know Ivy League graduates who make an income that is almost poverty level, and I have friend that dropped out of a weak college his freshman year and recently sold his company for 67 million dollars, while still maintaining 49% of the stock and the CEO position!!

Additionally, I don't know if there is some internet source that states that veterinarians generally have a low income, but in my geographic area they are doing tremendously well.

I'm not talking about a rural vet taking care of cows and getting eggs and chickens for rumeneration. I'm talking about a vet opening a practice in an upscale/upper-middle class suburb, where everyone has a favorite family pet that gets at LEAST the same care as family members.

These people spend HUGE money on their beloved pets and remember, these vets don't wait for insurance checks, they don't have to compromise their fees with insurance companies, they don't have to fight for their money, they don't have to get referrals, they don't have to get pre-certification......etc., etc. They simply say.. "will that be cash, check or charge for today's services", or "how would you like to pay for that TODAY?"

I do firmly believe that the solo practice may eventually become a dinosaur, and group practices will have a distinct advantage. There is power in purchasing, power in negotiating contracts, power when dealing with hospitals, insurance companies or any other entity. Those in private solo practice will continually feel the burden and stress of shouldering all the responsibility. There are certainly drawbacks to group practices, including personalities and egos, but in the long run the pros usually outweigh the cons, and the average doc in a group practice out-earns the average doc in solo practice.

And as per the statements of others, the medical field usually still earns more than the average joe, while providing a service that will ALWAYS be needed. But first you must decide what you want to do for the next 20, 30 or 40 years, and then worry about the potential income.
 
Although this may sound a little "corny", first and foremost you must enjoy what you do, and the financial consideration has to be secondary. If you're making a lot of money and you're miserable, what sense does that make?

QFT. 👍

I watched (and still watching) my parents work 60+ hours/week in jobs they hate in order to live the "american dream". They have been able to afford the 4 bedroom home and the 3 cars but they are always stressed out. They do not enjoy their job...which dominates the majority of their time...and they are not wealthy. I feel very fortunate to be starting podiatry school next year where I will begin my journey into becoming a podiatrists. A career where I will be able to do what I enjoy and make more than the average american.

Additionally, I don't know if there is some internet source that states that veterinarians generally have a low income, but in my geographic area they are doing tremendously well.

I'm not talking about a rural vet taking care of cows and getting eggs and chickens for rumeneration. I'm talking about a vet opening a practice in an upscale/upper-middle class suburb, where everyone has a favorite family pet that gets at LEAST the same care as family members.

These people spend HUGE money on their beloved pets and remember, these vets don't wait for insurance checks, they don't have to compromise their fees with insurance companies, they don't have to fight for their money, they don't have to get referrals, they don't have to get pre-certification......etc., etc. They simply say.. "will that be cash, check or charge for today's services", or "how would you like to pay for that TODAY?"

I am not trying to sound like I know the ins and outs of the vet business or business in general but from looking at the estimated averages online, they say that vets earn in the $80-100k/year. As you pointed out, vets do not deal with insurance. My thinking is that in certain areas...this may be a good thing or may be a bad thing. In a upper-middle class area such as yours, I think this would be good since they would have the cash to pay for whatever their pets need. In a middle to lower class area, which is the majority of america, I think most familys wouldn't have the cash to pay for these procedures and would end up euthanizing their pets. Again I don't know how business really works so correct me if my thinking is wrong.

I do firmly believe that the solo practice may eventually become a dinosaur, and group practices will have a distinct advantage. There is power in purchasing, power in negotiating contracts, power when dealing with hospitals, insurance companies or any other entity. Those in private solo practice will continually feel the burden and stress of shouldering all the responsibility. There are certainly drawbacks to group practices, including personalities and egos, but in the long run the pros usually outweigh the cons, and the average doc in a group practice out-earns the average doc in solo practice.

My mentor is a big proponent of solo practice. You brought up some very good points that I never thought about and I will bring these up the next time I speak with him.
 
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Atleast we will generally be recieving a decent salary and know we are needed and are experts in our field (NOONE will know the foot and ankle better than a podiatrist). Plus you knew what you were getting into and the amount of debt you would have when you would first start. So grow a pair, pay them off, and quit b*tching. This is life and it often blows but you get through it. The grass always seems greener on the other side, but it isn't. People on these boards will often say "go into business if you want a shorter way to make a lot of money"...but really? Do you mind 9-5 for the rest of your life wearing a tie to work and stopping off at starbucks every morning so you can load up on caffeine and sit behind a desk or cubicle doing monotonous work while being bossed around by some douche with higher authority than you?

I totally agree. I worked at a software firm for several years before applying for podiatry school and I was making significantly more than I will be in the first few years of practice as a podiatrist. If I would have stayed at the company, I likely would have topped out much higher than I will as a podiatrist. But the truth is, the job sucked and I felt like I was dying a bit more every time I went to work. I was always someone else's peon. Money is generally fine in podiatry and in my opinion its much better to do what you are interested in than have a crappy job that pays a huge salary. Besides, I have found that having more money generally doesn't show for much in the end. I am dirt poor right now and have relatively the same stuff as I did when I was in software (minus a nice car).
 
I'm glad that people discussed this issue from both sides. I am not complaing and bitching about loans, debt, time. etc. I have always wanted to be in the healthcare field, I went into undergraduate pre-physical therapy, then decided on pre-pharmacy, then I wanted to be a chiropractor, finally I decided I wanted to be a doctor and podiatry fit right into my interests. I like to talk about money and I know that I will be finanically stable in this field I just wanted to hear others thoughts. Also, I will be going to scholl next year as well and I guess the tuition is $25k once you include living expenses it substantially rises but you have to live somewhere. Only including the cost of a degree the loan would be $100k which is a good point.

Side note:
Today, I talked to my mom and she told me that a podiatrist came to my grandma's home for nail care and he had to remove a nail due to an infection or some type of swelling/puss. He was there for 25-30 min and granted he had to drive to my grandmas and back... but he billed for $336 so you can do the math. Nice to hear!
 
Ah,......he BILLED for $336. First of all, that seems a little excessive, but I won't comment on his billing practices since I don't know what procedures he performed or billed.

He probably billed for a home visit and also billed for nail care AND removal of the infected nail or drainage of the infection.

Unless your mother/grandmother actually paid him up front, he probably billed the insurance company for that amount, and he'll be lucky if he receives 1/2 of that amount.

You can BILL any amount you'd like, but that doesn't mean insurance companies will pay that amount. Often, when you bill a visit in conjunction with other services, one of those services can be either tossed out or reduced in it's fee. Additionally, when you have a contract with an insurance company, the fee you charge and the fee you RECEIVE often differ greatly.

If I received all the fees I BILLED, I would have retired about 10 years ago, and I'm relatively young.

So for all you young guys, PLEASE don't ever be impressed by the amount that any doctor "BILLS". This is for several reasons. Number one is that you rarely if ever receive the amount you bill. The second reason is that unfortunately, not all doctors are ethical, and some can bill very aggressively or overbill. So don't "count the money" yet.

There was a local DPM several years ago that had ONLY a housecall practice. No office, no secretary, no overhead, etc. He only made housecalls. So realistically, you really can't see that many patients a day, because you've got to drive all over the place. And obviously, you can't perform surgery, so all you're doing all day is routine care.

Well, this guy RECEIVED (not billed) over $960,000 as an average over a 4 year period from Medicare (my friend was the Medicare reviewer). When he was finally "caught", it was because everytime he did a housecalll, he didn't simply bill for "nail care", etc.

He billed for cutting of mycotic nails, several ingrown toenails, draining an infection, trimming calluses, and multiple procedures PER patient. I believe his average bill PER patient PER visit was over $650. However, when Medicare called these patients, they said "I just called the doctor so he could cut my nails".

When Medicare did a review, they compared this doctor to the "average" doctor in his geographic area performing the same service during the same period. The average DPM making housecalls was billing an average of $84 per patient per visit and was making 2 housecalls per month vs. a this guy billing a gazillion.

So, don't start counting the money based on ONE doctor's bill on ONE visit. There's always more to the story. And assuming your grandmother's visit was 100% legitimate, unless he was paid cash, it's doubtful that the insurance company will pay close to the amount billed.
 
Ah,......he BILLED for $336. First of all, that seems a little excessive, but I won't comment on his billing practices since I don't know what procedures he performed or billed.

He probably billed for a home visit and also billed for nail care AND removal of the infected nail or drainage of the infection.

Unless your mother/grandmother actually paid him up front, he probably billed the insurance company for that amount, and he'll be lucky if he receives 1/2 of that amount.

You can BILL any amount you'd like, but that doesn't mean insurance companies will pay that amount. Often, when you bill a visit in conjunction with other services, one of those services can be either tossed out or reduced in it's fee. Additionally, when you have a contract with an insurance company, the fee you charge and the fee you RECEIVE often differ greatly.

If I received all the fees I BILLED, I would have retired about 10 years ago, and I'm relatively young.

So for all you young guys, PLEASE don't ever be impressed by the amount that any doctor "BILLS". This is for several reasons. Number one is that you rarely if ever receive the amount you bill. The second reason is that unfortunately, not all doctors are ethical, and some can bill very aggressively or overbill. So don't "count the money" yet.

There was a local DPM several years ago that had ONLY a housecall practice. No office, no secretary, no overhead, etc. He only made housecalls. So realistically, you really can't see that many patients a day, because you've got to drive all over the place. And obviously, you can't perform surgery, so all you're doing all day is routine care.

Well, this guy RECEIVED (not billed) over $960,000 as an average over a 4 year period from Medicare (my friend was the Medicare reviewer). When he was finally "caught", it was because everytime he did a housecalll, he didn't simply bill for "nail care", etc.

He billed for cutting of mycotic nails, several ingrown toenails, draining an infection, trimming calluses, and multiple procedures PER patient. I believe his average bill PER patient PER visit was over $650. However, when Medicare called these patients, they said "I just called the doctor so he could cut my nails".

When Medicare did a review, they compared this doctor to the "average" doctor in his geographic area performing the same service during the same period. The average DPM making housecalls was billing an average of $84 per patient per visit and was making 2 housecalls per month vs. a this guy billing a gazillion.

So, don't start counting the money based on ONE doctor's bill on ONE visit. There's always more to the story. And assuming your grandmother's visit was 100% legitimate, unless he was paid cash, it's doubtful that the insurance company will pay close to the amount billed.

PADPM, thanks again for your insight on this topic. I really value what you have to say because you have the most experience on this thread and can really share about experiences that none of the pre-pod or current pod students have experienced yet.

I had posted twice at the end of the "job market" thread in this pre-pod forum and I did not get any answers to my questions. I was wondering if you could venture over to the "job market" thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=684349) and give me some feedback on these questions.

I was thinking about PMing you about this but rather hog that information to myself if you could (when you have time) answer some of my questions in that thread not only would I appreciate it but then others can be enlightened as well.

Thanks
 
Can I just say that this issue also scares the crap out of me! But after thinking about it, right now almost a fifth of my monthly income goes to student loans and I only make 25,000 a year, and if I only need about 50-60,000 a year (in the midwest) to live pretty comfortably then all that extra can go to student loans and I will be doing a job that I will like a lot more than my current job. And also, one benefit to being in a group practice or at least a two doctor practice is more flexibility for the individual practioner to go on vacation, etc. 😍
 
What I tell medical students complaining of debt.

Open up a local pizza shop restaurant .
Borrow $150K + opening costs.
Be lucky to earn 60-70K per year net, if you do not go out of business in your first 3 years.

150K per year is not shabby, is definitely well above starting salaries for other college grads as well as the rest of the population, and nothing to complain of in many US cities. And best of all , if you go into healthcare for the right reasons, you may actually have a fulfilling career.

MD, MBA
 
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You know what I would be afraid of? Having a B.A in something and not being able to find a job in this economy...Being in student loan debt is not that bad. As long as you are making on time payments, you are fine. Being a specialist, you will ALWAYS have a job. How many other professions can say they are job secure forever? Just be happy you are doing what you want and stop thinking about money all the time. You'll be fine as long as you know can carry on a conversation with a patient and aren't a weirdo
 
The pod is right you know, he is losing money as the government grabs and sucks the life out of the health care bubble.

Health care was/is a bubble.

Any time you see a hospital with name brands etc and medical stores and clinics everywhere, you know it's a bubble floating on made up money from social insecurity.

In fact, social security is going broke, what are those pods who mainly see medicare pts going to do when their beloved system goes broke? Their life line to feed themselves and their families?

After taxes you will be taking home like 80k. So don't believe this BS about 200k because you will be taxed to death by your government that feeds you.
 
You'll be fine as long as you know can carry on a conversation with a patient and aren't a weirdo
Based on some the forum regulars...I dunno...
 
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