bad science GPA and changing physics courses

[canis13]

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I'm in the middle of summer school physics, and after getting my grade for the first term of the 3 part series (quarter system), I feel like I'm losing faith in my ability to get into vet school. I thought I would be able to do well in physics, because I'm taking it at a local state university where I took gen chem last summer. I was able to get straight A's in gen chem, which is in stark contrast to my slew of B's and B-'s from pre-reqs I took at my rigorous liberal arts school that I just graduated from. So I signed up for physics with calculus this summer, figuring I would do okay because I managed a B in my calculus math class and that including calculus into physics would help things make more sense. But this B- that I just got from the first term of physics w/ calc is making me think that I just made the biggest mistake ever by picking the harder class. I doubt I can switch mid term from physics 212 (w/ calc) to physics 202 (w/o calc), but I can at least switch for the final term (from physics 213 to 203). So I'm wondering if it would look bad to have physics 211, 212, and then physics 203 on my transcript. All three classes satisfy the pre-req requirement for physics, but I'm worried that ad-coms are going to think I'm a quitter.

Because of this physics grade, I've started really freaking out over what seems like my inability to get anything higher than a B in science classes (besides my good fortune with gen chem last summer). My cumulative GPA is a 3.46, but my science GPA is now a 3.01. I have 12 semester units left of pre-reqs to take (the rest of physics, biochem and genetics), and if I got straight A's from here on out, the highest I could raise my science GPA to is a 3.2, but I realistically see myself shooting for a 3.1. So I'm wondering if having such a low science GPA is a death sentence for my ability to get into vet school. I should note that the rigorousness of my undergrad school is well documented (science majors have an average GPA of 2.9, but my school is 2nd in the undergrad origins of science Ph.D's in the united states). However, I will have only taken 9 out of 15 science pre-reqs at my undergrad school, and I was not a hard science major (I was psychology/neuroscience). And when it comes down to it, my sense is that you can only excuse away a bad GPA so much.

Finally, I've been accepted to Penn's post-bacc program in order to finish biochem and genetics this fall. I'm wondering if taking these classes at Penn is just a really bad idea at this point, and that instead I should try to take them at an easier school so that I can have a higher chance of getting A's.

I have ~1000 hours of vet experience, and am not going to apply until 2011, so I have time to get more vet experience. I also haven't taken the GRE yet. But I just feel doomed right now. I know none of you are admissions people, but any feedback on my situation would be great.

 

[nyanko]

This might be contingent on your actual understanding of calculus (which isn't really measured in the grade you got in it) and how physics is set up at your school. HOWEVER, for me, with a good understanding of calculus concepts and rules, I really can't imagine how algebra based physics could be easier, and in addition I definitely did much better in the 2nd semester than the first. Honestly, the concepts were totally different between the two at my semester school - first semester was mechanics and second was electricity and magnetism (optics and such too). For whatever reason the latter was more intuitive for me.

If your math abilities are shaky in general, I don't think either of them will really strike you as "easier." I just feel like a good calc concepts foundation really helps you actually UNDERSTAND what you're doing in physics, and gives more of a means to explain the concepts without feeling like you're memorizing a bunch of irrelevant equations. Just my opinion, though.

edit to add more: Perhaps what you need to be thinking about is why you received the grades you did in the courses. You really can't go around blaming the difficulty of the school. That isn't going to fly with adcoms either, really. I think you're going about this in the wrong way - rather than adjusting what your perception of the difficulty of the courses is (i.e. taking them at an "easier" school or whatever), perhaps you need to adjust how you approach them.

 

[BlacKAT33]

My sci gpa was only around a 3.2.

Curious what school you go to?

I would just stick with the physics you're taking now. A B- is not bad, why are you freaking out about a B?? You can obviously handle the course since you did not fail and you even got a decent grade.

Do Penn's post bac program! I cant believe you are considering not doing it after you were accepted. This is a great stepping stone! Also, what makes you think that my classes weren't hard because I went to a state school?? I can assure you that all schools have their weed out classes and my biochem was not easy, I got my lowest grade in biochem 🙁 Being ivy league doesn't automatically mean every class is harder. And being at a state school does not mean all classes are easy

 

[canis13]

I wasn't trying to blame the difficulty of my undergrad school entirely for my mediocre grades (hence my statement "you can only excuse away a bad GPA so much"), but wanted to say that it is a factor in why I don't have A's. And from what I've heard and read on here, it seems like adcoms will take that into consideration. And for me personally, the only explanation as to why I was able to work half as hard as I usually do for general chemistry last summer, but was able to get A's is that it was taken at a different school. I don't know, though.

However, I do think that I definitely made a mistake in expecting that physics would be easy, and I should've been able to predict that this would be hard for me at any school, given that math does not come easily to me.

I don't feel like the derivatives and integrals are the problem spots for me, more that I have trouble creating equations when faced with a word problem (for instance, is it big R or little r or both? Which formula on the formula sheet should I use? Is cos or sin involved?). However, I find myself mostly memorizing the way problems are solved rather than internalizing what is actually happening. So I think I probably will run into the same problems with coming up with equations after being presented with a word problem if I were to take physics without calculus, I guess I just was thinking that if my technique is to memorize rather than internalize, I might be slightly better off without calculus involved. But maybe it won't make a difference which class I'm in, and that I should focus more on trying to understand and internalize what is going on.

 

[canis13]

BlackKat - I just graduated from Reed College. I'm taking physics (and took gen chem) at Portland State University.

Thanks for telling me that I'm flipping out too much about the B-. I guess it's also partially because I just finished o-chem this spring, where I got the same grade (C and B-)

I do not think that state schools automatically have easier classes or that people there haven't had to work hard. I expect that biochem and ochem is hard anywhere, and apparently physics is a difficult subject for me no matter where I take it. But I believe there have been many threads on here with people from rigorous undergrad schools and people from state schools arguing about whether certain private liberal arts school are justifiably tougher than other schools. I don't want to rehash that debate, but to maybe help justify my statements, here is a link to the letter my undergrad sends out with their transcripts:

It sounds like maybe Penn doesn't grade the same way Reed does and that I should probably stick with going there this fall.

ETA: Also, sorry in general if I'm coming across like an arrogant whiner...that's definitely not my intent. I guess I'm just trying to rationalize all the factors that I think play into my GPA, including the difficulty of my school.

 

[nyanko]

I don't feel like the derivatives and integrals are the problem spots for me, more that I have trouble creating equations when faced with a word problem (for instance, is it big R or little r or both? Which formula on the formula sheet should I use? Is cos or sin involved?). However, I find myself mostly memorizing the way problems are solved rather than internalizing what is actually happening. So I think I probably will run into the same problems with coming up with equations after being presented with a word problem if I were to take physics without calculus, I guess I just was thinking that if my technique is to memorize rather than internalize, I might be slightly better off without calculus involved. But maybe it won't make a difference which class I'm in, and that I should focus more on trying to understand and internalize what is going on.

Right, no, to be honest you probably won't really see much of a difference. You actually do seem to lack a solid conceptual understanding of math in general. At least that's what I get from the fact that you have a tough time translating words into solvable systems - between the two there's some concept that links them together. and if you fully understand that concept there's very little memorization actually involved. As I'm sure you've noticed by now, plug and chug falls apart at some point in higher education and you have to use actual problem solving skills. So maybe that's where your approach is failing?

 

[canis13]

Yeah, I agree that I need to focus more on the concepts. I don't feel like I'm completely out in left field, as I have been able to reason through some test problems and use conceptual knowledge to solve them. But when I have gotten problems wrong, it's either because I couldn't quite get how to piece it all together. My friend suggested seeing a tutor, and although I'm not a big tutor person (in the past I've found it more helpful to work out the problems on my own and check the answers using the solution guide, and my tutor for calculus just made things more confusing for me), I think I'm going to try the tutor thing again, because whatever I'm doing is not enough.

It definitely doesn't help that I find physics to be the absolute most boring subject I've ever had to learn about.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Dropping down to the "easier" physics class for part 3 shouldn't be an issue. Adcoms only see that you took physics. They don't go "huh, well this was a (hard/easy) version so I'll give this grade this much weight." I definitely took the physics for physics major for mechanics since I love that kind of stuff, but took the physics full of pre-meds for E&M because I could care less about magnetism/electricity (though I like optics).

As for the school issue... I went to a grade deflated liberal arts college as well, and here's my take on it. Yes, perhaps your gpa might have been higher elsewhere (though it's a bit disconcerting that your physics grades aren't up to snuff at other places). BUT if there are others in your class with higher GPA's... then it means that you weren't doing all that well regardless. In many of my science classes, there might have been 1-2 people with a solid A... so I didn't beat myself up over it if I wasn't one of those people. But I expected myself to have a grade in the top 10-20% of each class to be considered a "good student." That meant I was satisfied had I gotten an A-. Given that a B or a B+ was the median grade in each class, getting lots of B's and B+'s to me felt like being an okay student. Not bad, but def not good. (I had a sister who graduated with a 3.9 in the chemistry dept in the same school... and I know I'm just not as good a student as her).

Getting a competitive gpa (3.5 - 4.0) is possible in any school. And getting a high gpa (3.7+) is very hard no matter where you go. You say you had a 3.4+ as your overall gpa... so maybe it just means that science isn't your thing?

 

[BlacKAT33]

Since your school has this letter to send out i really wouldnt worry about it. And also I do agree with minnerbelle that adcoms won't care if you switch to the other physics. so if you really want to go ahead. just remember, if you are switching into physics II with the prof that usually teaches for the whole year you will probably be out of the loop because everyone else had him 1st semester and knows what his exams are like and what to study.

But since the avg GPA is a 3.1 and you got a B, that means you are right on track. It doesn't seem like switching to the lower physics would allow to you get an easy A if you base this off of the GPA letter you showed, right? Then everyone would take the easier courses and people would have 3.8 GPAs (which i guess doesn't exist at your school) so no worries, you are on track.

 

[twelvetigers]

OT, but I was just by Reed the other day! Very pretty campus. I also stayed the night with two Reedies. Renn Fayre has always sounded fun to me. 🙂

 

[der2002]

Canis13:

Physics can be dreadful: mechanics especially. I too took a calculus-based mechanics course (at a state school) which was designed for engineering students. I loved calculus (got A's in all my calc courses), but hated the way the physics course was taught. Not only was it insanely intense, but dreadfully boring to boot. Registered and dropped that damn course 3 times. Ultimately, I ended up taking the pre-med physics courses for the 2nd and 3rd quarters of the series (due to scheduling issues,state budget crisis and fewer course offerings) and loved it from a conceptual perspective. Finally, after being admitted to vet school, I took a calc-based Mechanics course at another school (spring semester) and got an A.

FYI: I was a humanities major undergrad, took all my science pre-reqs as a non-traditional student and still managed to swing a very high science gpa. If I can do it, you can too! Keep an open mind and try the post-bacc program at Penn 😉.

 

[canis13]

Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone. I'm unfortunately stuck in Physics 212 aka electromagnetism, but just dropped physics 213 and instead signed up for physics 203 (without calc) for the 3rd term of the series (which I think is relativity?). If I could re-do the summer, I would've signed up for physics w/o calc from the start, but c'est la vie.

I'm still feeling crappy about my science GPA, although it does seem like it may not be a death sentence. Minnerbelle - I agree with your theory of comparing yourself to the class in general (e.g. if only 2 people got A's, then it's fine if you didn't get an A), but I unfortunately have pretty much no idea what grades that anybody got in my Reed science courses. I know that at least in o-chem I would get around the class average on tests, but that's about it.

I wouldn't say that science isn't my thing as much as it just doesn't come easily to me. I did major in psychology, and took mostly neuroscience classes, and aced all of them, so I'm hoping that maybe that might stand out on my transcript. It's a shame that I'm not interested in getting a Ph.D. in neuroscience, because I'd probably have a higher chance of getting into that type of program.

Twelvetigers - I'm glad you enjoyed your Reed experience. You should try to visit again at the end of next April for RF, because it's awesome!

 

[NStarz]

Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone. I'm unfortunately stuck in Physics 212 aka electromagnetism, but just dropped physics 213 and instead signed up for physics 203 (without calc) for the 3rd term of the series (which I think is relativity?). If I could re-do the summer, I would've signed up for physics w/o calc from the start, but c'est la vie.

I'm still feeling crappy about my science GPA, although it does seem like it may not be a death sentence. Minnerbelle - I agree with your theory of comparing yourself to the class in general (e.g. if only 2 people got A's, then it's fine if you didn't get an A), but I unfortunately have pretty much no idea what grades that anybody got in my Reed science courses. I know that at least in o-chem I would get around the class average on tests, but that's about it.

I wouldn't say that science isn't my thing as much as it just doesn't come easily to me. I did major in psychology, and took mostly neuroscience classes, and aced all of them, so I'm hoping that maybe that might stand out on my transcript. It's a shame that I'm not interested in getting a Ph.D. in neuroscience, because I'd probably have a higher chance of getting into that type of program.

Twelvetigers - I'm glad you enjoyed your Reed experience. You should try to visit again at the end of next April for RF, because it's awesome!

Somewhat OT, but your psych may help you more than you think. I'm a psychology minor (too many hoops to jump through for the double major), but some knowledge of animal behavior (and people behavior!) will help you out a ton in any veterinary practice. Definitely higlight that interesting/unique aspect of your background.

The second half of physics, I found, was much easier based on the professor who taught the course. I'm not sure where your 3-course sequence divies up the topics, but the mechanics and force were so difficult with this one professor, but I ended up really enjoying the second half with magnetism, light, optics, and modern physics. I took algrebra-based.

Calc can be easier, but only if you know how to use it. If you are stuck trying to derive the formula on a test and that trips you up, you're never going to be able to apply it. I'm not sure if there would be much of a difference in the latter sections of physics, because there aren't many equations to memorize/learn/apply. It's mostly application of concepts. However, your school/professors may gear the class to a slightly more applied level if it's for all the pre-health careers (so it may be more applicable and therefore easier for you to comprehend). I don't think ADCOMs will care whether you took calc or algebra based (or that you switched in the middle of the sequence). Maybe there were scheduling conflicts or maybe you had a repoire with the professor that was teaching the 3rd algebra-based class (but not the calc). Too many variables and too many variations for them to care that much.

 

[nyanko]

It's a shame that I'm not interested in getting a Ph.D. in neuroscience, because I'd probably have a higher chance of getting into that type of program.

OT, but unless you've done quite a bit of very good neuroscience research and with someone fairly important in the field, it probably wouldn't be any easier for you! For some reason (probably $$/prestige of saying they're a neurobiologist or w/e), the vast majority of ridiculous overachievers I know who are aiming for grad school in bio/biomed are in neuro. Some of those programs have acceptance rates below 5%...insane. 😱

And if you like neuro you should be able to relate it at least some to optics and to circuits, whichever of the 3 physics courses those are in for you. That might help you become more enthusiastic about it. For me, I find that interest really does dictate a large portion of my grade for a course now that I have a handle on my learning style and efficient study habits. For instance, I have never gotten less than an A- in any genetics course, undergraduate or graduate. And the only one I got an A- in was a grad level course I took as an undergraduate in a semester where I was overloading on credits and doing 20 hours a week of research, and my grandfather died that semester and I had to submit a thesis proposal too.

I do agree that mechanics is like, super freaking boring though. Ugh..

Oh, and on the GPA issue...my prerequisite GPA was bad - like 2.99 bad. I made a lot of dumb mistakes along the way, like taking biochemistry before I took general biology (I should have known I was in trouble when I realized I didn't even really know what amino acids were for, nevermind trying to memorize them...), taking organic chemistry I and II in sequence over the same summer, skipping 90% of the lectures in physics I because it was all the way across campus from the classes before and after it and my anatomy prof would make fun of me if I came in late....etc. But ultimately it came down to having only myself to blame. I wasn't really asked about it this go-around, but I'd suggest that if you're asked about it at an interview and your upper division sciences GPA is a lot higher (like mine, about 3.75), you could try to steer it towards that.