Ball State's Program - Neuropsychology

[Member878812]

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[AcronymAllergy]

Does anyone know much about Ball State's program in terms of any students there pursuing a path in neuropsychology. I have been on their website, but I'd appreciate some information from students or anyone who knows a student there. They do have a neuropsychology training clinic but they offer a degree in school psychology. It was my impression that one would need a degree in clinical psychology to purse neuropsychology in the future. Something that alarmed me was the number of students who obtain internship at their non-APA accredited consortium and the low percentage of students who obtain, or even seem to pursue, APA accredited internships.

Any information/input is appreciated!

I don't know much about that specific program, but the bolded portion above would give me pause as well, particularly given how competitive neuropsychology is becoming. I've heard of school psych folks going the neuropsych route, but in general, they pursued significant practicum experiences outside of those normally offered in order to ensure their competence. Additionally, with the postdoc path becoming more the norm rather than the exception, and with most neuro fellowships requiring or strongly preferring APA internships, I'd be very hesitant to potentially hamstring myself early on by attending a program without a solid history of placing students into these spots.

Perhaps a current student (if there is one here) would be able to provide some insight.

 

[PsychGal222]

A friend of a friend of mine completed this program (with the neuropsych cognate), and is currently completing a neuropsych post-doc. From what I understand, he put significant effort in getting experience during graduate school that would make him competitive for neuropsych placements. But that suggests to me that it's at least possible to pursue this route if you choose.

The low number of students in the program who apply to/obtain APA internships might be a reflection of the fact that students in school psychology programs, particularly those who intend to work in schools, do not necessarily need to complete APA internships. Your best bet might be to contact the program to get in touch with a current student or recent graduate.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Additionally, with the postdoc path becoming more the norm rather than the exception, and with most neuro fellowships requiring or strongly preferring APA internships, I'd be very hesitant to potentially hamstring myself early on by attending a program without a solid history of placing students into these spots.

According to the Houston Guidelines....

Entry into a clinical neuropsychology residency program should be based upon completion of an APA or CPA accredited doctoral education and training program. Clinical neuropsychology residents will have successfully completed an APA or CPA accredited internship program which includes some training in clinical neuropsychology.

Residency education and training is designed to provide clinical, didactic and academic training to produce an advanced level of competence in the specialty of clinical neuropsychology and to complete the education and training necessary for independent practice in the specialty. The postdoctoral residency program is a required component in specialty education in clinical neuropsychology. The expected period of residency extends for the equivalent of two years of full-time education and training. The residency experience must occur on at least a half-time basis.

 

[IT514]

IMHO, it would not be a good route to pursue quality training in clinical neuropsychology. The fact that students dont even have to try to go through APPIC seems like a back door route to internship and licensure.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Something that alarmed me was the number of students who obtain internship at their non-APA accredited consortium and the low percentage of students who obtain, or even seem to pursue, APA accredited internships.

Do you mind sharing the URL where you saw this data? I can't find it and I'm very curious about the observation that there is a low percentage that pursue or obtain APA internships.

 

[Member878812]

Do you mind sharing the URL where you saw this data? I can't find it and I'm very curious about the observation that there is a low percentage that pursue or obtain APA internships.

Here is the requested link. It appears that the route of most students is the consortium, which is understandable given the lure of an almost 'guaranteed' internship.

Thank you all for your input and thanks to the person who provided more information about school psychology and internships.

http://cms.bsu.edu/Academics/Colleg...hoolPsych/Academics/PhDtrack/Internships.aspx

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Here is the requested link. It appears that the route of most students is the consortium, which is understandable given the lure of an almost 'guaranteed' internship.

Thank you all for your input and thanks to the person who provided more information about school psychology and internships.

http://cms.bsu.edu/Academics/Colleg...hoolPsych/Academics/PhDtrack/Internships.aspx

This is for a School Psychology program, not an APA accredited Counseling or Clinical Psychology program.

 

[Member878812]

Psychadelic, I'm a little unsure of what you're saying. It is my understanding that you obtain a PhD in Educational (school) psychology here with a cognate in neuropsychology. This data reflects students in the educational psychology cohort. Information regarding the school's full-accreditation status for the PhD program can be found here: http://cms.bsu.edu/Academics/Colleg...sychology/Academic/SchoolPsych/Academics.aspx

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Psychadelic, I'm a little unsure of what you're saying. It is my understanding that you obtain a PhD in Educational (school) psychology here with a cognate in neuropsychology. This data reflects students in the educational psychology cohort. Information regarding the school's full-accreditation status for the PhD program can be found here: http://cms.bsu.edu/Academics/Colleg...sychology/Academic/SchoolPsych/Academics.aspx

Others will say this better, but only a counseling or clinical psychology program, that is APA accredited, will train you to be a neuropsychologist.

 

[coldsweat]

Others will say this better, but only a counseling or clinical psychology program, that is APA accredited, will train you to be a neuropsychologist.

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/programs/accred-school.aspx

First, Ball State University's School Psychology program is APA-accredited.

Second, it is definitely possible to obtain appropriate neuropsychology training in a school psychology program. I'm enrolled in a doctoral school psychology program (not BSU's, but another one) and my advisor, who graduated from a school psychology program, completed an APA-accredited pediatric neuro internship. In my opinion, there's only several school psychology programs that can provide the appropriate coursework, practicum, and research opportunities to pursue a career as a neuropsychologist, but it is definitely possible.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In my opinion, there's only several school psychology programs that can provide the appropriate coursework, practicum, and research opportunities to pursue a career as a neuropsychologist, but it is definitely possible.

Given the different training goals/requirements of a school psych v. clinical/counseling psych program, I find it hard to believe that a student coming from a school psychology program will have sufficient coursework, practica, and mentorship to have a sufficient foundation of training to be a neuropsychologist and sufficient training to be a school psychologist.

For full disclosure, I believe it goes both ways (clinical/counseling--> school psychologist). There are already objections to various clinical and counseling programs providing enough generalist training, so I'm not sure how a school psych program can provide sufficient training in both areas. I spent the beginning part of my psych training doing school psych/assessment related research, and there are far more nuanced differences in the training programs than most people realize.

There seems to be a subtle push on SDN that school psychologists can do everything that clinical/counseling psychologists can do...but clinical/counseling psychologists can't practice in a school setting because we don't have the training. Maybe I am overly sensative to this topic because of the recent and bogus "school neuropsychologist" push made by a small minority of school psychologists, but that is the feeling I have gotten when school psych v. clinical/counseling psych training gets discussed.

 

[coldsweat]

Given the different training goals/requirements of a school psych v. clinical/counseling psych program, I find it hard to believe that a student coming from a school psychology program will have sufficient coursework, practica, and mentorship to have a sufficient foundation of training to be a neuropsychologist and sufficient training to be a school psychologist.

For full disclosure, I believe it goes both ways (clinical/counseling--> school psychologist). There are already objections to various clinical and counseling programs providing enough generalist training, so I'm not sure how a school psych program can provide sufficient training in both areas. I spent the beginning part of my psych training doing school psych/assessment related research, and there are far more nuanced differences in the training programs than most people realize.

There seems to be a subtle push on SDN that school psychologists can do everything that clinical/counseling psychologists can do...but clinical/counseling psychologists can't practice in a school setting because we don't have the training. Maybe I am overly sensative to this topic because of the recent and bogus "school neuropsychologist" push made by a small minority of school psychologists, but that is the feeling I have gotten when school psych v. clinical/counseling psych training gets discussed.

I'm going to disagree with you. For example, in my school psychology program, in addition to the neuropsychological assessment course in our department, we can take courses in in neuroanatomy, psychopharmacology, neuroimaging, and neurophysiology in other departments. Practica are available through the medical school and children's hospitals in the region that provide training not only in neuropsychological assessment, but also general pediatric psychology training. In my lab investigating the neural bases of learning disorders, we analyze neuroimaging data and obtain specialized knowledge of neuroanatomy.

As evidence for the quality of the neuropsychology training in some school psychology programs, I know of people who were trained in school psychology programs who have matched to the neuropsychology tracks of APA-accredited internships and completed postdoctoral neuropsychology fellowships at very competitive sites such as Boston Children's Hospital, Kennedy Krieger Institute, and Texas Children's Hospital. Some of the most prolific researchers in pediatric neuropsychology such as Margaret Semrud-Clikeman and Cecil Reynolds were trained in school psychology programs.

There are several programs in school psychology that provide training in neuropsychology, some of them providing quality training meeting the Houston Conference Guidelines, and some of them providing poor training that does not meet the HC Guidelines. I think that the school psychology programs that provide poor training in neuropsychology tarnish the reputation of the few school psychology programs that actually provide quality training in neuropsychology. For example, the American Board of School Neuropsychology is the product of these school psychology programs that provide poor training in neuropsychology. Their trainees do not receive adequate training in neuropsychology to obtain certification through a legitimate board (ABPP) so they created an illegitimate board. However, just because this school neuropsychology board exists does not mean all school psychologists specializing in neuropsychology pursue "backdoor" or illegitimate routes to becoming neuropsychologists.

 

[Pragma]

Given the different training goals/requirements of a school psych v. clinical/counseling psych program, I find it hard to believe that a student coming from a school psychology program will have sufficient coursework, practica, and mentorship to have a sufficient foundation of training to be a neuropsychologist and sufficient training to be a school psychologist.

For full disclosure, I believe it goes both ways (clinical/counseling--> school psychologist). There are already objections to various clinical and counseling programs providing enough generalist training, so I'm not sure how a school psych program can provide sufficient training in both areas. I spent the beginning part of my psych training doing school psych/assessment related research, and there are far more nuanced differences in the training programs than most people realize.

There seems to be a subtle push on SDN that school psychologists can do everything that clinical/counseling psychologists can do...but clinical/counseling psychologists can't practice in a school setting because we don't have the training. Maybe I am overly sensative to this topic because of the recent and bogus "school neuropsychologist" push made by a small minority of school psychologists, but that is the feeling I have gotten when school psych v. clinical/counseling psych training gets discussed.

I'm going to agree with you 🙂

As for coldsweat's response, I would say that if the training actually does meet the HC guidelines, then there is a place for it.

 

[sininen]

I'm a graduate of Ball State's school psych program. I did not have a neuro cognate, though. I think the program overall is high quality (I'm sure I'm biased!), but everyone here is right, it's a school psych program. So you'll be spending time in schools, no matter what, and a clinical neuropsych program may be a better fit if you're not interested in that. Some in our program did have to work very hard to make their program as "neuro" as possible. Also, as far as I know there was not an imaging component to or program, so if you're looking for researchers using fMRIs, etc, Ball State probably wouldn't be a good match. All that said, I know several graduates who are doing exactly what they wanted to do, including impressive neuropsych post docs, in the end. The program also had great funding, which is another consideration.

Regarding the APPIC match, there are a lot of reasons some people choose not to enter the match. Firstly, BSU does not require it as a condition for graduation (at least as of 2-3 years ago), which is actually nice, since that takes some of the pressure off of that awful process. Some programs require it, and I have heard horror stories of students in limbo for years trying to get an APA accredited internship. Anyway, because it was not required, some were able to arrange an internship doing exactly what they wanted to, or one that would lead to employment/post doc after graduation, and they felt that was preferable than doing APPIC. Someone mentioned schools, and that is very true - our grads who knew they wanted to work in schools often chose not to do APPIC because it wasn't necessary. At least a few people were geographically restricted due to families and children and couldn't have done APPIC even if they wanted to. So even though not everyone chose to go APPIC, of the people I know who did enter the match, nearly everyone matched at a good site and is very happy. I did APPIC and had no trouble getting a lot of interviews and a great site.

 

[PsychBiker]

Someone please make the joke.

 

[schoolpsy21]

As a school psychology doctoral student, I do not think that school psychology students can accrue enough coursework + practicum/internships to fully satisfy the Houston Guidelines. My program also has a neuropsychology concentration, which many students (not me) choose to pursue. I think it's great for SP students to gain exposure to neuropsychological assessment etc, but students who complete the 12 or 15 credit concentration (no necessary practicum or internship) and refer to themselves as "school neuropsychologists" after graduation is not acceptable imho.

 

[Chalupacabra]

As a school psychology doctoral student, I do not think that school psychology students can accrue enough coursework + practicum/internships to fully satisfy the Houston Guidelines. My program also has a neuropsychology concentration, which many students (not me) choose to pursue. I think it's great for SP students to gain exposure to neuropsychological assessment etc, but students who complete the 12 or 15 credit concentration (no
necessary practicum or internship) and refer to themselves as "school neuropsychologists" after graduation is not acceptable imho.

1 - the program is 24 credits and does require practicums. Ball State also has their own neuropsych lab with multiple board certified neuropsychs working in the program as faculty and supervisors.

2 - as multiple people in this thread have pointed out, alumni of this program have a track record of becoming board certified and acquiring neuro-postdocs. They have no affiliation with the ABSNP and I personally am not a fan of that particular board or their work. You're preaching to the choir as far as the whole dicey "school neuropsychologist" title goes.


If you're not going to do your research or offer any useful insight, please don't bother posting.

 

[schoolpsy21]

1 - the program is 24 credits and does require practicums. Ball State also has their own neuropsych lab with multiple board certified neuropsychs working in the program as faculty and supervisors.

2 - as multiple people in this thread have pointed out, alumni of this program have a track record of becoming board certified and acquiring neuro-postdocs. They have no affiliation with the ABSNP and I personally am not a fan of that particular board or their work. You're preaching to the choir as far as the whole dicey "school neuropsychologist" title goes.


If you're not going to do your research or offer any useful insight, please don't bother posting.

No need to be sassy! I was just offering up my opinion on the topic, in addition to talking about what my own program does to allow readers to learn about what a neuropsychology concentration looks like at another SP program. I never claimed to have done research on this specific program...

 

[PsychBiker]

No need to be sassy! I was just offering up my opinion on the topic, in addition to talking about what my own program does to allow readers to learn about what a neuropsychology concentration looks like at another SP program. I never claimed to have done research on this specific program...

I think he/she was talking to me.

 

[mkberry85]

While many/most do go the Clinical Psychology route, others will go School or Counseling. Most school psychology doctorates are APA approved and will prepare the individual for license as a psychologist, and I have seen many board-certified Clinical Neuropsychologists that doctoral training was in School Psychology. As coldsweat stated, many school psychology doctoral students apply, and match, into neuro programs (typically pediatric).

I do agree with you to a point. Many School Psychologists do believe that they can do everything a licensed psychologist can do, and while they can do many aspects, they can't do everything a licensed psychologist can do. Likewise, a school psychologist can do some things much better compared to licensed psychologists.

To comment on your statement regarding school neuropsychologists. This field is not intended (even per their Board) to replace or to represent themselves as neuropsychologists, but to provide better training (and certification) to school psychologists on the neuropsychological practices; which is very important and I am glad that they are doing so. But, to go along with this, I do believe that training school psychologists in neuropsychology is vital, I don't have the data or knowledge judge the ABSNP. I believe that the field of School Neuropsychology does need better representation (and licensing), and at present, I don't believe that a school psychologist should be identifying themselves as a school neuropsychologist (or a psychologist, as I have seen on many reports).

I'm not sure about the neuropsychology cognate of the school psychology program, but I did take the Pediatric Neuropsychology course and I have thought about doing the online certificate in neuropsychology (just for personal knowledge, not really seeking out to become a neuropsychologist, board certified in it, or complete an internship or fellowship in neuro).