Ballpark cost of 200 PT programs

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InNoApparentDistress

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nice list, i just looked through it really quick,

i think you are missing marshall from wv and tourno univ nevada
 
z32019912 said:
nice list, i just looked through it really quick,

i think you are missing marshall from wv and tourno univ nevada
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback! This only includes the first 200 programs listed on the US News and World Report site so there are going to be about 50 missing ones (I believe there are ~250 accredited programs in the US). Practical constraints meant that I had to draw a line in the sand regarding how many of these I was going to research.

I've set up a google form for those interested in making this a more complete resource. I'll update these to the map as I'm able.

http://goo.gl/forms/qw9wJjTxRd
 
InNoApparentDistress said:
I had some time on my hands over winter break and put this together while doing some broader research about PT earnings / educational costs. It's not perfect, but I thought it might be helpful to pre-PTs while they're starting to plan for the application process.

If anyone notices any errors, please let me know and I'll try to keep it updated as thoroughly as time permits.

http://www.macprible.com/blog/2016/1/9/what-does-it-cost-to-become-a-physical-therapist
Click to expand...

Great resource to be able to look at most programs in one place. Maybe just add something in that this is strictly for tuition/fees and that cost of living will obviously add to these amounts and vary tremendously depending on program location, although I would hope most would understand this.
 
aroszko said:
Great resource to be able to look at most programs in one place. Maybe just add something in that this is strictly for tuition/fees and that cost of living will obviously add to these amounts and vary tremendously depending on program location, although I would hope most would understand this.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I've now added language to that effect.
 
InNoApparentDistress said:
I had some time on my hands over winter break and put this together while doing some broader research about PT earnings / educational costs. It's not perfect, but I thought it might be helpful to pre-PTs while they're starting to plan for the application process.

If anyone notices any errors, please let me know and I'll try to keep it updated as thoroughly as time permits.

http://www.macprible.com/blog/2016/1/9/what-does-it-cost-to-become-a-physical-therapist
Click to expand...

Did you include cost of living or something for GSU's program? Your number is significantly higher than the cost I calculated. For a resident taking 12 or more hours per semester x 9 semesters = 4692 x 9 = 42228, the number you have listed is 69072.
 
redrose424 said:
Did you include cost of living or something for GSU's program? Your number is significantly higher than the cost I calculated. For a resident taking 12 or more hours per semester x 9 semesters = 4692 x 9 = 42228, the number you have listed is 69072.
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Oops I forgot fees so you would want to add 9576 to that number. That makes it 51804. Although it looks like GSU charges a little less in fees during the summer semester.
 
InNoApparentDistress said:
If anyone notices any errors, please let me know and I'll try to keep it updated as thoroughly as time permits.
Click to expand...

This is such a great resource, thank you for sharing 🙂 Just one possible edit though. I believe your calculation for University of the Pacific, in Stockton CA, is incorrect. The program is only 6 trimesters, not 9, as it's an accelerated curriculum finished in 25 months. Thus, the base tuition would be $137,136 instead of $190,863.
 
bromeliad said:
This is such a great resource, thank you for sharing 🙂 Just one possible edit though. I believe your calculation for University of the Pacific, in Stockton CA, is incorrect. The program is only 6 trimesters, not 9, as it's an accelerated curriculum finished in 25 months. Thus, the base tuition would be $137,136 instead of $190,863.
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Awesome! Thanks. That one had really caused me some head scratching. Updated now.
 
Yikes, some of these programs are way more expensive than I thought!
 
This is awesome. Definitely puts things into perspective. I noticed that you don't have a few schools I applied to. Unlucky I guess! Lynchburg College (Lynchburg, VA) and Mercer University (Atlanta, GA). Those are both newer programs so I would imagine that's why they weren't included. Great work, though!
 
Awesome list, and it will be helpful for many, I'm sure.

Heads up that UMD-Baltimore has 118 credits, not 100.
 
noke11 said:
This is awesome. Definitely puts things into perspective. I noticed that you don't have a few schools I applied to. Unlucky I guess! Lynchburg College (Lynchburg, VA) and Mercer University (Atlanta, GA). Those are both newer programs so I would imagine that's why they weren't included. Great work, though!
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Thanks! I'm going to try to flesh this out a bit now over my last week of break. I hope to get all 25o programs or so in there, just to make it more of a complete resource.
 
You are awesome. I have done this with the schools I am interested in, but a truly selfless act for you to make something so comprehensive for us all to use. Great job!
 
I find it scary that there are now 230+ schools churning out DPT grads. Saturation, at least in desirable areas, must be around the corner - if not already here. Pre-PT students, please pay attention to the cost of your education.

I went back to one of my old posts, where I counted 205 DPT programs in 3/2013. So there are now 25+ additional programs. It must be a good money-maker for schools!
 
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jblil said:
I find it scary that there are now 230+ schools churning out DPT grads. Saturation, at least in desirable areas, must be around the corner - if not already here. Pre-PT students, please pay attention to the cost of your education.

I went back to one of my old posts, where I counted 205 DPT programs in 3/2013. So there are now 25+ additional programs. It must be a good money-maker for schools!
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It's even worse than that. The Aggregate Program data uses the figure of 258 programs (though I can't find a list of each of those programs):

http://www.capteonline.org/uploaded...gram_Data/AggregateProgramData_PTPrograms.pdf

Looking at all of these, it seems pretty clear that if a school can satisfy the requirements of CAPTE and get a program accredited, they can pull down a reliable $4M revenue per year at least (each new class of 40 students x $100k over 3 years, layered up 3 deep). Average annual operating expenses and salaries for programs is in the range of $1.2M to $1.5M (from Aggregate Program Data above). So a profit of $2.5M per year to go into a school's coffers for...something else. Yeah, heavy potential for abuse.
 
InNoApparentDistress said:
each new class of 40 students x $100k over 3 years, layered up 3 deep. Average annual operating expenses and salaries for programs is in the range of $1.2M to $1.5M
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And if the school accepts more than 40 students/class, it will make even more money since the operating expenses and salaries won't go up linearly. I am surprised that the University of Phoenix and Miller-Motte have not opened a DPT program yet.
 
jblil said:
I find it scary that there are now 230+ schools churning out DPT grads. Saturation, at least in desirable areas, must be around the corner - if not already here. Pre-PT students, please pay attention to the cost of your education.

I went back to one of my old posts, where I counted 205 DPT programs in 3/2013. So there are now 25+ additional programs. It must be a good money-maker for schools!
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be concerned by this at all. Twice the number of medical students graduate every year compared to PT students yet there seems to be a never ending shortage for MD's. There are about 800-900k practicing physicians depending on what data you choose to use, and about 180-200k physical therapists.

"By 2060, there will be about 98 million older persons, more than twice their number in 2013. People 65+ represented 14.1% of the population in the year 2013 but are expected to grow to be 21.7% of the population by 2040." http://www.aoa.acl.gov/aging_statistics/index.aspx

Business for PT's will be booming for a long time. Not to mention if private insurance and medicare wake up (and they slowly are) and see how much money they could be saving by reimbursing for preventative services and wellness PT's will have nothing to worry about.

http://www.capteonline.org/uploaded...gram_Data/AggregateProgramData_PTPrograms.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321532/data/factstableb2-2.pdf
 
"By 2060, there will be about 98 million older persons, more than twice their number in 2013. People 65+ represented 14.1% of the population in the year 2013 but are expected to grow to be 21.7% of the population by 2040."

Nobody disputes the fact that the number of elderly persons is growing quickly. However, the funds to take care of this rapidly-growing population (i.e., the Medicare budget for the most part) is not keeping pace. That is why Medicare reimbursements keep getting worse every year: we only have so much money to divvy up among all of the seniors out there. Right now, the Medicare "hard cap" on PT + Speech is $3,700/year. I will bet dollars to donuts this cap will not go up (except to keep up with inflation).

Comparing the number of PTs to the number of MDs/DOs is an apples-to-oranges comparison: our scope of work is completely different. It's akin to comparing the number of PTs to the number of Uber drivers (~160,000 currently, according to the WSJ).
 
jblil said:
Nobody disputes the fact that the number of elderly persons is growing quickly. However, the funds to take care of this rapidly-growing population (i.e., the Medicare budget for the most part) is not keeping pace. That is why Medicare reimbursements keep getting worse every year: we only have so much money to divvy up among all of the seniors out there. Right now, the Medicare "hard cap" on PT + Speech is $3,700/year. I will bet dollars to donuts this cap will not go up (except to keep up with inflation).

Comparing the number of PTs to the number of MDs/DOs is an apples-to-oranges comparison: our scope of work is completely different. It's akin to comparing the number of PTs to the number of Uber drivers (~160,000 currently, according to the WSJ).
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While I can't argue that medicare reimbursements continue to decline for most medical professions what I can say is I believe this will be the catalyst necessary for PT's to truly become direct access practitioners. Becoming truly direct access will create many opportunities for our profession. Decreasing reimbursements will force creativity and the upheaval of tired old ways of delivering care. I think PT's are in prime position to become front line defense against patients entering the healthcare system. Our clinical judgement and ability to perform differential diagnoses can alleviate a lot of the strain in the healthcare system. While I won't be able to treat or do anything for a patient presenting with LBP that ends up being an abscess or something else beyond my scope I can certainly eliminate the possibility of it being a musculoskeletal problem. If it ends up being musculoskeletal then great I can treat the patient and they will receive medical care far quicker than if they followed the traditional route of calling up the physician who then determines its a musculoskeletal issue and then eventually refers to me.

Differential diagnosis will become one of our main jobs. Many in the PT field want to resist this because they don't want the liability or responsibility of becoming direct access practitioners. They want to stay nice and cozy underneath the protective umbrella of the "ordering" physician. Whether they like it or not the profession is leaving this umbrella. I wouldn't take the other side of your bet regarding medicare reimbursement but I would be willing to bet eventually that number will be thrown out altogether and a new system will take its place.

Your assertion that comparing the number of PT's to the number of MD's/DO's is an apples to oranges comparison is extremely short sighted. Of course our main scopes are completely different, we are a different profession. However that doesn't mean we don't have things in common. You can bet your dollars and donuts that eventually we will alleviate some roles only MD's/DO's perform. Imaging and limited prescription privileges for PT's have existed in the military (imaging since the 70's) and there are european countries experimenting with giving PT's imaging privileges. It's coming but it is also a relatively new profession so things take time. It took chiropractors 60-70 years to cement themselves within the healthcare system and they are hardly evidence based.

http://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.2011.3556 - food for thought
 
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that PTs can be both more effective, and cost-effective, than MDs in treating MSK conditions. I would also love to see the independence and privileges enjoyed by PTs in the military extended to us civilian PTs. However, I think you underestimate the obstacles that other professions will put up. When the pie is not growing, each profession is going to fight teeth and nails against "encroachment" on what it sees as its home turf. Case in point: in my state (NC), chiros have been against PTs performing spinal manipulations for years; and just recently (10/2015), acupuncturists filed a lawsuit to prevent PTs from doing dry-needling. In a perfect world, Medicare and insurance companies will see the cost-effectiveness of PT and allow us to extend our scope of practice. Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where the better-funded lobbies often win. Just look up how much APTA spends on lobbying, and compare it to how much the AMA and the ACA (the chiros' organization) are spending.

As for being short-sighted... Unlike many of the posters here, I came to PT very very late - I worked for 20+ years in engineering and software, both in Fortune 10 companies and tiny start-ups (during the dot-com boom), in the US, Europe and Africa. Somewhere along the line, I guess I lost my rose-colored glasses and may be that accounts for my short-sightedness.
 
I would like to think that I do not underestimate the fight ahead. Perhaps I do. However I think the resistance that will be faced can only be temporary. I can not blame the acupuncturists for their move to block PT's. If PT's could regularly have state authorization and get reimbursed for dry needling acupuncturists would quickly become obsolete. I'm still on the fence about dry needling, I really have not seen any well conducted research regarding its efficacy. But if the evidence is there for it I think once again it will just be a matter of time before evidence based practice trumps non-scientific ideology.

Hopefully new blood within the PT profession can spark the necessary drive needed to make a quantum leap forward for our profession. The way I see it, if we do not capitalize here and unite against complacency the profession will be stuck in a quagmire. So it's either rose-colored glasses or dark amber bottles.

For the record I avoid looking at APTA membership rates, ACA membership rates, and both of their lobbying expenditures. It makes me physically ill.
 
So, what are your concrete plans to make this quantum leap forward? I am asking, not questioning.
 
just an update. Emory and Henry increased their tuition for the next cohort to 33k per year (100k total for tuition). 🙁
thanks for putting this together!
 
ODU is about $68,000 with books included (given financial paperwork at an open house). Radford (not included in your list, newer program), located in Roanoke, VA is about $80,000.
 
jblil said:
So, what are your concrete plans to make this quantum leap forward? I am asking, not questioning.
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My plans are fairly simple. Getting involved by advocating for membership restructuring, educating the public and other medical professionals about our capabilities (in some cases public interest drives insurance reimbursement), and promoting our profession to the public and to other physical therapists so that their is more of a sense of unity as opposed to individuality. I assume you want specifics so I'll try to give them in a nutshell.

Advocating - First and foremost getting fellow PT's to see the long term value of being an APTA member. I think many look at the cost and are immediately tuned out as they don't see the ROI. I'm going to propose to APTA they mandate memberships in certain areas. For example if you want to be part of a state association it would become mandatory you also become an APTA member. The state's would become the recruiters and the collectors. APTA would receive a portion of what the states collect. I think the same can be applied to specialties within the PT profession. Politics are local so I think membership should be restructured accordingly. Independent members have little to say in the operations of a national body so value isn't really realized. Reduce it down to state level and things start to change. I think very quickly you would see states having a larger voice at a national level and reform happening faster at a state level.

Educating and Promoting - This is fairly self explanatory. It's really saddening that both the public and some medical professionals believe we are glorified masseuses. PT = massage time. As I am sure you know, some PT's in our own profession struggle to answer the question "Whats the difference between PT and OT?". This is pretty embarrassing... My plan here is again more of a grass roots approach. Starting locally with patients in my city and trying to get other PT's on-board. The same applies at the state level within the association. I think if pride could be fully restored within the PT profession our presence/capabilities would naturally be felt. There is this proverbial blanket on top of the profession and any time we do something great it's almost as if we are afraid to pop out and take credit. I still can not believe the resistance some PT's have against the doctoral degree, or how many PT's do not want to be addressed as doctor in the clinical setting. It's like they totally forget optometrists, podiatrists, pharmacists, dentists, and audiologists did not go to med school either yet they are still regarded as doctors of their profession. It's almost as if we are not confident enough with our own abilities to be addressed as doctor. The DPT is paramount for legislative purposes too, it can't be Dr. Ivont Yuzevidenz the chiropractor versus Bob Smith the PT. There's something to be said about having Dr. in front of the name, we need to own it.

I had a professor once tell me there are two states in life and nothing in between, however the choice is always yours. You are either green and growing, or brown and dying. I'd like to be green and growing.
 
The cost for Samuel Merritt University in Oakland is actually 107k. The first two years of the program you pay full annual tuition of 46k, but for the third year, you only pay for 1 trimester (roughly 15k). The last two trimesters of the third year are dedicated to internships and the school does not charge tuition.
 
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