Basic Exam - CANCELLED

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I can confirm, as well. Postponed to Aug 7-8.
 
anbuitachi said:
lets be real. they never really cared about those tests. they know its practically the same as ITE, only difference is teh residents pay 700$ for each exam, which is what they care about.
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I remember paying $2600 total for written and oral exams (ca-3 when In early 2000s). That’s $2600 straight up cash
So how much do residents pay for all 3 exams?

And I was making 40k as a pgy-4 in super expensive east coast city.
 
aneftp said:
I remember paying $2600 total for written and oral exams (ca-3 when In early 2000s). That’s $2600 straight up cash
So how much do residents pay for all 3 exams?

And I was making 40k as a pgy-4 in super expensive east coast city.
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Right now: 875 + 875 + 2400. (Basic, Advanced, Applied respectively)

So basically much more.
 
CopaceticOne said:
Right now: 875 + 875 + 2400. (Basic, Advanced, Applied respectively)

So basically much more.
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So only $1750 with resident salary.

That is still better than $2600 on a resident salary. Early 2000s money on a 40k resident salary.

$2600 is like $3500? In 2020 money.

$2400 on attending salary is not bad.
 
I personally am a fan of standardized tests as they allow for objective assessment.

On the other hand I believe that the ABA's decision to split the board certification exams into basic+ advanced was likely at least partially motivated by the potential to generate more revenue. Same goes for addition of the O$CE to the oral boards.
 
Not sure how true this is, but i heard that the price for the written board didnt increase when they split the exam into basic and advanced. Each exam was priced at 50% of the written board when it first came out.
 
JiPo said:
Not sure how true this is, but i heard that the price for the written board didnt increase when they split the exam into basic and advanced. Each exam was priced at 50% of the written board when it first came out.
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That's true, but now they can raise the cost of each exam by X instead of just one exam by X.
 
Guillemot said:
That's true, but now they can raise the cost of each exam by X instead of just one exam by X.
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so the written board used to be 1750??

i think ABA's system is ******ed. there's no evidence any of this make us better physicians. We have more exams than the majority of specialties out there... and they keep adding more. i dont know if it's there way to fight crna encroachment but if it is i think it is a very ineffective way. all it does is burn up our wallet and time, plus the added stress with having to study for it all.

In my opinion. Keep the advanced, get rid of basic, osce and orals. Change the advanced so that it reflects our practice more instead of asking about rare stuff xyz. Include written questions on top of multiple choice, to demonstrate thought process.
 
anbuitachi said:
so the written board used to be 1750??

i think ABA's system is ******ed. there's no evidence any of this make us better physicians. We have more exams than the majority of specialties out there... and they keep adding more. i dont know if it's there way to fight crna encroachment but if it is i think it is a very ineffective way. all it does is burn up our wallet and time, plus the added stress with having to study for it all.

In my opinion. Keep the advanced, get rid of basic, osce and orals. Change the advanced so that it reflects our practice more instead of asking about rare stuff xyz. Include written questions on top of multiple choice, to demonstrate thought process.
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I agree there is wayyyy too much BS in the initiation certification and MOCA system, and while I would dump the osce I would not get rid of the orals. In my anecdotal experience, there is a crystal clear difference between the anesthesiologists I know who passed their orals the first time and those who took multiple attempts. I do also know a strong anesthesiologist who needed multiple attempts to pass due to horrific stage fright/anxiety but these are the exception, not the rule imo.
 
The only BS in initial certification I see are the OSCEs, and the fact that there isn't a more serious limit on the number of exams. I would limit them to 3 attempts, and I would put an 18 month-waiting period between them. Also, there is too much basic science in anesthesia to get rid of the basic exam.

I have had the same experience as @vector2 with people who didn't pass their orals on their first attempt. While the opposite doesn't mean anything, failing the orals usually correlates with lack of knowledge and/or judgment. Usually the kind of gap that never disappears.

Failing the written is even worse; I would refuse to be treated by any physician who's failed their written board exam in the past, regardless of specialty. It's usually a sign of a midlevel++. American written exams are so easy to pass, it takes a special skill to fail them.

Btw, @anbuitachi, you should see the critical care written exam. That one can feel like ****ting nails, which is exactly how it should be.
 
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vector2 said:
I agree there is wayyyy too much BS in the initiation certification and MOCA system, and while I would dump the osce I would not get rid of the orals. In my anecdotal experience, there is a crystal clear difference between the anesthesiologists I know who passed their orals the first time and those who took multiple attempts. I do also know a strong anesthesiologist who needed multiple attempts to pass due to horrific stage fright/anxiety but these are the exception, not the rule imo.
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FFP said:
The only BS in initial certification I see are the OSCEs, and the fact that there isn't a more serious limit on the number of exams. I would limit them to 3 attempts, and I would put an 18 month-waiting period between them. Also, there is too much basic science in anesthesia to get rid of the basic exam.

I have had the same experience as @vector2 with people who didn't pass their orals on their first attempt. While the opposite doesn't mean anything, failing the orals usually correlates with lack of knowledge and/or judgment. Usually the kind of gap that never disappears.

Failing the written is even worse; I would refuse to be treated by any physician who's failed their written board exam in the past, regardless of specialty. It's usually a sign of a midlevel++. American written exams are so easy to pass, it takes a special skill to fail them.

Btw, @anbuitachi, you should see the critical care written exam. That one can feel like ****ting nails, which is exactly how it should be.
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@FFP
Yes but i do not believe that is a justification to introduce all these exams. Why not a 2nd oral exam, or a 3rd, or a simulation exam.
There are ways to beat these exams. Most ppl who study hard pass these exams. What we dont know is how many attempts, or how the examiners were for them. Like what vector2 said, i met smart people who took MULTIPLE times to pass the oral. And dumb people pass with 1 attempt. Most people pass since you get multiple attempts.

With the basic, yes its bad if you fail bc its pretty easy to pass cause the curve is massive. but at the same time the problem with that test is it is a only a test, and it tests your testing skills, studying skills, etc but i don think it tests whether or not you are a good anesthesiologist.

I think if they get rid of basic, oral, osce, the level of care in this country from anesthesiologist will be unchanged.


If we want to use board certification as a standard of level of care, and we want to ensure good anesthesiologists, then i think this should be done before RESIDENCY graduation, because residency is when you get trained. why are you graduating if you SUCK? it should be like elementary school, get left back/repeat a year if you dont meet standards. if you already meet standards, why are you being tested 3 more times after graduation with advanced, osce, oral??? then it becomes just a testing game
 
anbuitachi said:
@FFP

If we want to use board certification as a standard of level of care, and we want to ensure good anesthesiologists, then i think this should be done before RESIDENCY graduation, because residency is when you get trained. why are you graduating if you SUCK? it should be like elementary school, get left back/repeat a year if you dont meet standards. if you already meet standards, why are you being tested 3 more times after graduation with advanced, osce, oral??? then it becomes just a testing game
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Almost everyone (including myself) who actually took a non-ASC job after training agrees that you learn as much in your first year out as you did in your last year of training. The whole point of the orals is to see if you built up the kind of knowledge base and clinical judgement that comes from finally practicing anesthesia without being able to pick up your spectra/cisco phone and call daddy attending at will to answer your questions or bail you out.
 
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vector2 said:
Almost everyone (including myself) who actually took a non-ASC job right out of residency agrees that you learn as much in your first year out as you did in your last year of training. The whole point of the orals is to see if you built up the kind of knowledge base and clinical judgement that comes from finally practicing anesthesia without being able to pick up your spectra/cisco phone and call daddy attending at will to answer your questions or bail you out.
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Then prob just call up your boss and see if you are doing a good job. It's probably as reflective as oral exam results...
 
anbuitachi said:
@FFP
Yes but i do not believe that is a justification to introduce all these exams. Why not a 2nd oral exam, or a 3rd, or a simulation exam.
There are ways to beat these exams. Most ppl who study hard pass these exams. What we dont know is how many attempts, or how the examiners were for them. Like what vector2 said, i met smart people who took MULTIPLE times to pass the oral. And dumb people pass with 1 attempt. Most people pass since you get multiple attempts.

With the basic, yes its bad if you fail bc its pretty easy to pass cause the curve is massive. but at the same time the problem with that test is it is a only a test, and it tests your testing skills, studying skills, etc but i don think it tests whether or not you are a good anesthesiologist.

I think if they get rid of basic, oral, osce, the level of care in this country from anesthesiologist will be unchanged.


If we want to use board certification as a standard of level of care, and we want to ensure good anesthesiologists, then i think this should be done before RESIDENCY graduation, because residency is when you get trained. why are you graduating if you SUCK? it should be like elementary school, get left back/repeat a year if you dont meet standards. if you already meet standards, why are you being tested 3 more times after graduation with advanced, osce, oral??? then it becomes just a testing game
Click to expand...

Only 3-4% of CA-1's fail the basic. If you fail it because "your test skill" is poor, that means your knowledge base is so poor that it is probably around bottom 5% of CA-1's to begin with, and the "poor test taking skill" just tipped them over the edge. Plus, this test gives you way too much time, and time management (which is a big part of being a good/efficient test taker) is irrelevant. I will give you that some "good test taker" can prob get a few more questions right, but the major benefit of being a good test taker here is just finishing the exam earlier, but the ample amount of time given negates that benefit.

I would also argue that it doesn't matter how good your "studying skill" is. Good "studying skill", to me, means you attain knowledge efficiently. If one takes longer to understand and gain knowledge, one should be cognizant of that and should spend more time and effort. It is unfair that some people learn more efficiently. But, hey, life isn't fair. Some people are just smarter than others and have better studying habit. I don't care how people acquired their knowledge foundation (or how much effort and time they put into to acquire the knowledge), as long as they have a strong foundation. And residents with poor knowledge base (and I mean literally bottom of the class) will likely be poor clinicians.

I agree that passing this test does not mean much, but the value of this test isn't to see who passes, but to see who fails. Hopefully failing the exam triggers a meaningful change on how those residents approach the last 2 years of their training.
 
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JiPo said:
Only 3-4% of CA-1's fail the basic. If you fail it because "your test skill" is poor, that means your knowledge base is so poor that it is probably around bottom 5% of CA-1's to begin with. Plus, this test gives you way too much time, and time management (which is a big part of being a good/efficient test taker) is irrelevant. I will give you that some "good test taker" can prob get a few more questions right, but the major benefit of being a good test taker here is just finishing the exam earlier, but the ample amount of time given negates that benefit.

I would also argue that it doesn't matter how good your "studying skill" is. Good "studying skill", to me, means you attain knowledge efficiently. If one takes longer to understand and gain knowledge, one should be cognizant of that and should spend more time and effort. It is unfair that some people learn more efficiently. But, hey, life isn't fair. Some people are just smarter than others and have better studying habit. I don't care how people acquired their knowledge foundation (or how much effort and time they put into to acquire the knowledge), as long as they have a strong foundation. And residents with poor knowledge base (and I mean literally bottom of the class) will likely be poor clinicians.

I agree that passing this test does not mean much, but the value of this test isn't to see who passes, but to see who fails. Hopefully failing the exam triggers a meaningful change on how those residents approach the last 2 years of their training.
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yes, by spending less time in OR/clinicals, and more time taking practice questions.
 
anbuitachi said:
yes, by spending less time in OR/clinicals, and more time taking practice questions.
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Unless the program is specifically getting CA-1's out of the OR to provide protected studying time for the BASIC, the time spent in the OR/clinicals is not changed.
 
JiPo said:
Unless the program is specifically getting CA-1's out of the OR to provide protected studying time for the BASIC, the time spent in the OR/clinicals is not changed.
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true. but program i was at did that, probably because board failures make the program look bad.
 
FFP said:
I would refuse to be treated by any physician who's failed their written board exam in the past, regardless of specialty.
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PLease tell me you are joking!!
 
FFP said:
Why would I be joking? Do you have any idea how low the passing scores are?
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There are plenty of people who have failed those exams. (im not one of them). but I can see failing them. And the written is not that easy by the way.
 
46Long said:
There are plenty of people who have failed those exams. (im not one of them). but I can see failing them. And the written is not that easy by the way.
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Be afraid, be very afraid of them.

The failing rate on an American board exam, on the first try, is less than 20% usually.

On the 2017 Basic exam, the passing rate was 88.4%! On the Advanced, 95.2%!
 
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46Long said:
There are plenty of people who have failed those exams. (im not one of them). but I can see failing them. And the written is not that easy by the way.
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It is not easy to get above 90% on the test. It is easy to get a passing score with minimal effort.
 
46Long said:
There are plenty of people who have failed those exams. (im not one of them). but I can see failing them. And the written is not that easy by the way.
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I didn't take the Advanced exam yet, but the pass rate in 2017 was 95%. Failing means that you were bottom 5% of the graduating class. If you score 36-40 on the ITE the same year, you have 98% chance of passing, and anything higher than 40, 100% chance of passing the Advanced exam. Heck, I know CA-1s that got above 36 after 8 months of Anesthesia residency. It is pretty hard to justify failing this exam...

Now, watch me fail when I take my advanced 😉 (hope not)

Source: http://www.theaba.org/PDFs/Presentations/SAAA-2017-Exams-Report
 
JiPo said:
I didn't take the Advanced exam yet, but the pass rate in 2017 was 95%. Failing means that you were bottom 5% of the graduating class. If you score 36-40 on the ITE the same year, you have 98% chance of passing, and anything higher than 40, 100% chance of passing the Advanced exam. Heck, I know CA-1s that got above 36 after 8 months of Anesthesia residency. It is pretty hard to justify failing this exam...

Now, watch me fail when I take my advanced 😉 (hope not)

Source: http://www.theaba.org/PDFs/Presentations/SAAA-2017-Exams-Report
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I think when i took it the pass rate was around 78-85% all comers.. I would love to find that info. And the orals historically had 20 percent fail rate. I think the few years preceding me the pass rate for the writtens was as low as 57%.
 
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Is the advanced exam going to be rescheduled?

Anyone hear anything?
 
JiPo said:
Only 3-4% of CA-1's fail the basic. If you fail it because "your test skill" is poor, that means your knowledge base is so poor that it is probably around bottom 5% of CA-1's to begin with, and the "poor test taking skill" just tipped them over the edge. Plus, this test gives you way too much time, and time management (which is a big part of being a good/efficient test taker) is irrelevant. I will give you that some "good test taker" can prob get a few more questions right, but the major benefit of being a good test taker here is just finishing the exam earlier, but the ample amount of time given negates that benefit.

I would also argue that it doesn't matter how good your "studying skill" is. Good "studying skill", to me, means you attain knowledge efficiently. If one takes longer to understand and gain knowledge, one should be cognizant of that and should spend more time and effort. It is unfair that some people learn more efficiently. But, hey, life isn't fair. Some people are just smarter than others and have better studying habit. I don't care how people acquired their knowledge foundation (or how much effort and time they put into to acquire the knowledge), as long as they have a strong foundation. And residents with poor knowledge base (and I mean literally bottom of the class) will likely be poor clinicians.

I agree that passing this test does not mean much, but the value of this test isn't to see who passes, but to see who fails. Hopefully failing the exam triggers a meaningful change on how those residents approach the last 2 years of their training.
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Agree with your post except for the bolded. In my opinion the allotted time is perfect and is far more reflective of people's actual knowledge and especially clinical reasoning skills than having a highly time-constrained written exam. In contrast, the USMLE exams did not provide enough time to the point where your score would be noticeably affected by how fast you are at reading the 2 paragraph vignettes rather than being more reflective of your knowledge base and clinical reasoning skills. Allowing more time removes reading speed as a confounding variable that can impact scores significantly. If you want to assess an element of speed where it actually matters (THINKING quickly on your feet, not how fast you can read through hundreds of multi-paragraph question vignettes) this is better suited for OSCE or oral boards than multiple choice exams.

You even seem to admit yourself that allowing more time removes some of the advantage of "being a good test taker" and thus ends up being more reflective of just actual knowledge and clinical reasoning skill. Shouldn't that be preferred over structuring exams to favor those who are merely "good test takers" rather than those who are actually the most knowledgeable and thoughtful practitioners?
 
46Long said:
I think when i took it the pass rate was around 78-85% all comers.. I would love to find that info. And the orals historically had 20 percent fail rate. I think the few years preceding me the pass rate for the writtens was as low as 57%.
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Either the test got easier or we got smarter. I doubt it's the latter. Perhaps it is a good idea to raise the bar again for the sake of patient safety.
 
there was no clinical reasoning on the basic imo It was a knowledge test and you either knew the answer or you didn’t. That would be fine but there were a lot of questions that were not clinically relevant or random. Most of the question stems were one sentence.
 
Simba1711 said:
there was no clinical reasoning on the basic imo It was a knowledge test and you either knew the answer or you didn’t. That would be fine but there were a lot of questions that were not clinically relevant or random. Most of the question stems were one sentence.
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What clinical reasoning would you expect on a basic science exam? You either know your anatomy, physiology etc. or you don't. No offense, but did you read the exam description and content outline etc. before the exam?
The ABA said:
The BASIC Examination, the first in the series of exams, will be offered to residents at the end of their CA-1 year. It focuses on the scientific basis of clinical anesthetic practice and will concentrate on content areas such as pharmacology, physiology, anatomy, anesthesia equipment and monitoring.
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The American Board of Anesthesiology - About BASIC (Staged Exams)

www.theaba.org www.theaba.org
 
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