Bastardly residents!!!

[livewires]

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Okay, I'm and MS III and until now I've been very fortunate to either work directly with attendings or to have been with good residents. Granted, I'm only on my fourth rotation, but all in all I've been pretty happy thus far. UNTIL NOW!!! I recetnly starting working with a resident that is a real prick. He is arrogant, talks down to me, pimps me in front of the attendings and even when I know the answer he will reitterate what I said to make me look bad. The worst part is sitting there while he dictates his notes for hours when I could be in the library studying or seeing other pts.. He's just a gunner and it gets taxing to work with him. I understand that residents are busy, but it's no excuse to treat med students with disrespect. I have a strong personality so it's difficult for me not to just smack him upside the head (I restrain myself, fortunately).

So, this message is to you residents, especially those who talk down to your medical students, pass us off as inconveniences, refer to us as "the medical students," talk about how little we know, and COMPLAIN BECAUSE WE MIGHT HAVE A QUESTION NOW AND THEN. Please remember that you are no better, you are no smarter, you have just been around a few years longer. We don't like it when you talk down to us and we HATE standing around while you dictate. It sucks and we gain nothing from it.

Please remember that we help you probably a lot more than you help us. It seems like there is a general concensus with residents that med students are just annoying and it makes you look stupid. If you act that way you deserved to get smacked by your student.

 

[roja]

You have had one bad resident so far. Welcome to the real world. It sucks and it doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do something about it. (talk to whoever is directy above him, or your rotation director).

But also realize you will only be thier transiently.

Try not to make generalizations about ALL residents. Remember, one day YOU will be one.

 

[livewires]

Yes, I will be a resident one day soon and I will certainly respect the purpose of why students are rotating with me. TO LEARN and be part of a TEAM PERIOD. Fortunately, I'm cool and understanding and students with me will be very happy and satisfied. I will make sure they are and will ask for feedback. I've never had a resident ask me if I was happy. Go figure.

 

[Harrie]

Easy to say that now.
Lets see how cool and understanding you are when you're working into your 36th straight hour of an over 100 hour week and the med student is bugging you about how to fill out a radiology form that you've already explained 20 times. I bet it will be easy to forget how it felt to be there.
Oh, and I bet you won't be asking if they are happy.

I'm not saying that it's the right way to do it, I'm just saying that I can understand WHY it happens.

 

[supercut]

News flash folks....residents are people

Just like people in any other profession, some are great and some are pricks. That guy would probably be a jerk if he were a wall street trader.

Yes, the ideal resident would possess infinite patience and would teach the students constantly, would always be super polite, would never get tired or short tempered.

How many of you realized, when you were interviewing for medical school, that ultimately the path to becoming a physician would include teaching medical students for a peroid of years? Have any of you gotten any instruction as to how to be a good teacher? Do you realize that residents don't get any instruction in teaching? It is thrust upon us, whether we want it or not. Some of us enjoy it and try to make an effort. Other people resent this role.

No matter what field you work in, you will have to work with people you don't like and with people who don't treat you well (anyone watching "The Apprentice?"

I'm not saying that you don't have some legitamite gripes. But nothing is perfect. I'm a resident who makes a lot of effort to teach students. Some seem to remain completely clueless, and don't get that they are clueless. These students can try the patience of even the most student friendly resident. I"m not perfect, and sometimes I'm tired and annoyed and I snap at people. That's life.

Ulitmately, you are responsible for a good part of your own education. Use those times when you have not so great residents to help work on that. It is possible to turn unpleasant experiences into valuable learning experiences, if you want to. When you become a resident, you'll find that not all attendings are great, willing teachers, or even pleasant people.

At least as a student your time with the unpleasant people will be limited.

 

[livewires]

Oh c'mon guys. Quit making excuses for yourselves. You all know when you apply to these programs that you will be in mentoring roles. Don't play stupid and pity yourselves for not being taught how to teach. I don't even care if the resident I'm with doesn't teach me a thing. Just don't make me sit for an hour while you dictate notes. Tell me to go and read, or sleep, or stroke my monkey for that matter. Just don't be laim, don't talk down to us, and don't act annoyed when we ask you things. Step it up because you're going to create med students who will also be pricks in that situation. I have trouble biting my tongue sometimes and eventually I'll just probably point out what a prick this guy is and will take my chances on the eval.. There becomes a point when I don't give a damn.

 

[scootad.]

I understand both sides of the coin. I can totally appreciate that residents are under a ton of stress and having that annoying brown-nosing med student following you around constantly asking stupid questions would make me want to be an assshole to them. On the wards, I see lots of med students with this immature entitlement attitude that makes me think they were totally spoiled as children; they deserve to be spoon fed their education and will not lower themselves to do menial tasks.

At the same time, I dont understand why residents sometimes make students stand around watching them do stuff that is totally non-educational (e.g. like the dictating example above) and wont tell them to go and read or something. You would think if they were so annoyed by the student at that point they would want them out of their sight anyway.

 

[Boomer]

Oh c'mon guys. Quit making excuses for yourselves. You all know when you apply to these programs that you will be in mentoring roles. Don't play stupid and pity yourselves for not being taught how to teach. I don't even care if the resident I'm with doesn't teach me a thing. Just don't make me sit for an hour while you dictate notes. Tell me to go and read, or sleep, or stroke my monkey for that matter. Just don't be laim, don't talk down to us, and don't act annoyed when we ask you things. Step it up because you're going to create med students who will also be pricks in that situation. I have trouble biting my tongue sometimes and eventually I'll just probably point out what a prick this guy is and will take my chances on the eval.. There becomes a point when I don't give a damn.

Or, how 'bout you grow a set of your own, and say, "Hey, unless you've got something for me to do, I'm going to go read."

Most of us don't mind teaching or directing, but, and I've searched my contract with a fine-toothed comb, babysitting is NOT a resident's responsibility.

Basically, don't bitch about it here. Quit "biting your tongue" (or your pillow, or whatever else you bite) and become an active part of your own rotation experience.

 

[14022]

Fortunately, I'm cool and understanding

Yeah, you sound real cool and understanding. You are anonymously lecturing all residents and posting advice for them in a medical student forum, all because of one arrogant resident. I would hate to see you're response if you were a jerk.

Hey livewires the "cool and understanding" store called; they're all out of you. Name the TV show this quote is from and you win a super secret prize.

 

[tupac_don]

Oh c'mon guys. Quit making excuses for yourselves. You all know when you apply to these programs that you will be in mentoring roles. Don't play stupid and pity yourselves for not being taught how to teach. I don't even care if the resident I'm with doesn't teach me a thing. Just don't make me sit for an hour while you dictate notes. Tell me to go and read, or sleep, or stroke my monkey for that matter. Just don't be laim, don't talk down to us, and don't act annoyed when we ask you things. Step it up because you're going to create med students who will also be pricks in that situation. I have trouble biting my tongue sometimes and eventually I'll just probably point out what a prick this guy is and will take my chances on the eval.. There becomes a point when I don't give a damn.

Yea some residents can be "pricks" as you said. But many students try to get away from doing work. Most students want to work up to a certain, point, but then it's like I am outta here. You seem like someone with a strong personality. But guess what from the sounds of it, the resident also has a strong personality and you clash that is the nature of the beast. Being a strong personality myself I can see what you are talking about, but you simply don't have a choice, if you haven't noticed, hospital is like the army, you are the private and the resident is the lutenant, any way u look at it he is above you. While you might have potential to be better than him at this point he knows way more than you, come on man you are only on your 3rd year rotation and this guy has at least 3 years of working experience under his belt. You gotta give him props. Also if you are a hard worker and you do your best, I am certain your resident will apreciate that. But from your talk you strike me someone who has limits to which he will adhere to, after that you don't want to be in the hospital. I know of stories of friends of mine, who worked 110+ hours in 3rd year surgery rotations. Suck it up champ and show some resilience. And remember, telling somebody off doesn't make you stronger, you can always do it. But once you do it, you can't go back. Best of luck to you.

 

[Seaglass]

Seinfeld, and it's "lame" not "laim"

 

[Seaglass]

And Lieutenant, not Lutenant

 

[roja]

*sniff* *sniff* I smell a troll.


I concur with growing your own and being an active participator.


And sometimes, you just have to get a little side of 'suck it up'.

 

[phoenixsupra]

I'd like to say something about this. Livewires is not saying all residents are bastards. If you read his post he says that most of his experiences have been positive. He is looking for advice about how to deal with a difficult situation. That's all.

We all fit in somewhere on a personality spectrum from laid back to all out spitfire dynamo (I was looking for neutral descriptive terms so as not to offend anyone, no offence is intended). The op describes himself as a "strong" personality. Not good but strong. So I'm guessing he fits pretty close to the leisurly end of the spectrum. Sounds like he's having a personality clash with someone on the mega-industrious end. I've been through this myself. I'm quite close to one end of the line myself. The evals that I get reflect that. Some are great, "excellent, don't change a thing" while others are extremely nasty. My school pastes them all into one very contradictory paragraph, which reads very strangly.

Anyway my guess is that the op and his resident are the proverbial chalk and cheese. The op dislikes the resident. The resident is not stupid and picks up on this. This seems to be a problem that arises in third year. During the first two years in my school the class sort of polarized on these personality lines into sort of two main groups. Of course many people get along with all types but for us there was this sort of great divide. The bottom line is that during the first two years there was nothing forcing anyone to overcome these limitations.

When we get to the hospital we realize that this isn't some local phenomenon but the plain reality of the medical field. Now we find the same personalities in charge of us and the $hit sort of hits the fan. Op was pimped sadistically and had power trips pulled on him. Some of my more bookish friends have the opposite problem. Residents with "strong personalities" sort of charm them and get them off gaurd, them give them nasty crappy evals. This cuts both ways. There will be no escaping personalities that you don't interact well with. The conclusion that I've come to is that the only way to solve this problem is the hard way. Learn what that person, or if you will, that kind of personality is all about. Find the level on which they are ok. And try to understand how they percieve you and what annoys them about you. You may have more social skill but they aren't stupid and most likely resent you getting by on the strength of it. You have invested time and effort developing your personality. They have invested enormous amounts of time in their knowledge. We only have so much time and there is always a trade off between spirit and soul. I'm sure you see where this is going. This problem will occur again and again untill you come to terms with it.

Please don't slam the op for what you think he's doing wrong. Help him overcome it. Personality clashes are hard. Both parties are generally coming at each other from the other's psychological blind spot. I used to think that attitude and personality were more important than base knowledge because practically anyone can accuire the knowledge if they put in the time. But personality and knowledge base are both the result of time and effort. You gotta respect the other's investment even though that may be a humbling thing to do. Good luck. 🙂

 

[Fro]

no one's forcing you to sit by him and listen to him dictate
get smart and say something like I gotta take a dump or grab a soda and then disappear.
he can page you then
it ain't easy keeping any coherent thought going to teach when your pager goes off every .05 seconds

 

[macman]

hear hear!

I agree-I've been with a few ****ty residents and here is what I did:

1) if I really needed a stellar eval. I tried to get as much one on one time with the attending as I could-the attending will also likely see through their behav.

2) If I was not overly concerned about the eval. and the resident, or attending for that matter, showed a complete lack of respect for my time-I would just say: "Is there anything specific I can help with now" then they have to say "yes-do this", or "no-go home/library". I refuse to sit like a dog for an hour while someone dictates its humiliating and foolish. You may however be punished for assertiveness.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I do have a strategy for dealing with the waiting game. I just whip out my medical spanish book and start using the time. It's hard for me to study medicine without some peace and comfort. But learning spanish phrases is fine in that situation. Sit there mouthing out sentences like "necessita expulsar la placenta ahora!". Nine times out of ten the resident will just send you home. It's not your time they're after it's just your pain. Ha ha. 🙂 Really, if they cant kill your mood they eventually give up, and sometimes end up being ok.

I'm sick of all this attrition though. I want to prevent the problem in the first place so that I don't get screwed later on when I'm stuck in a system and not just breezing through. Good luck.

 

[roja]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I do have a strategy for dealing with the waiting game. I just whip out my medical spanish book and start using the time. It's hard for me to study medicine without some peace and comfort. But learning spanish phrases is fine in that situation. Sit there mouthing out sentences like "necessita expulsar la placenta ahora!". Nine times out of ten the resident will just send you home. It's not your time they're after it's just your pain. Ha ha. 🙂 Really, if they cant kill your mood they eventually give up, and sometimes end up being ok.

I'm sick of all this attrition though. I want to prevent the problem in the first place so that I don't get screwed later on when I'm stuck in a system and not just breezing through. Good luck.

Now thats invention! I love it.

 

[Pili]

Or, how 'bout you grow a set of your own, and say, "Hey, unless you've got something for me to do, I'm going to go read."

Most of us don't mind teaching or directing, but, and I've searched my contract with a fine-toothed comb, babysitting is NOT a resident's responsibility.

Basically, don't bitch about it here. Quit "biting your tongue" (or your pillow, or whatever else you bite) and become an active part of your own rotation experience.

Hey this is the perfect place to bitch. Everybody bitch away!!!! The fact is, 3rd year sucks, and I thank God every day that I am now a fourth year. Some residents are dinguses, as are some students. But the resident has the power over the student and, in that regard, an dingus resident is particularly to blame. Noblesse oblige.
I did give a piece of my mind to an assholish CMR last year for whom I had no respect, both as doctor or as person. I was polite and even overly polite, but my message was clear. I knew it would end in my eval. It did. But the idiot was SO unintelligent that his comment got deleted. Careful with this approach, but don't trade your dignity.
Having said this, dear, 3rd year is time for humility. We all need that. 😎

 

[Pili]

Yea some residents can be "pricks" as you said. But many students try to get away from doing work. Most students want to work up to a certain, point, but then it's like I am outta here. You seem like someone with a strong personality. But guess what from the sounds of it, the resident also has a strong personality and you clash that is the nature of the beast. Being a strong personality myself I can see what you are talking about, but you simply don't have a choice, if you haven't noticed, hospital is like the army, you are the private and the resident is the lutenant, any way u look at it he is above you. While you might have potential to be better than him at this point he knows way more than you, come on man you are only on your 3rd year rotation and this guy has at least 3 years of working experience under his belt. You gotta give him props. Also if you are a hard worker and you do your best, I am certain your resident will apreciate that. But from your talk you strike me someone who has limits to which he will adhere to, after that you don't want to be in the hospital. I know of stories of friends of mine, who worked 110+ hours in 3rd year surgery rotations. Suck it up champ and show some resilience. And remember, telling somebody off doesn't make you stronger, you can always do it. But once you do it, you can't go back. Best of luck to you.

I have now heard it all. I pity your students! Has it occurred to you like...we don't get paid and you do? We take shelf exams? We PAY to be there? Next year I am sending my students to read and rest once thir educational activities are over. And you do the work you are paid to do. The nerve!

 

[tupac_don]

I'd like to say something about this. Livewires is not saying all residents are bastards. If you read his post he says that most of his experiences have been positive. He is looking for advice about how to deal with a difficult situation. That's all.

We all fit in somewhere on a personality spectrum from laid back to all out spitfire dynamo (I was looking for neutral descriptive terms so as not to offend anyone, no offence is intended). The op describes himself as a "strong" personality. Not good but strong. So I'm guessing he fits pretty close to the leisurly end of the spectrum. Sounds like he's having a personality clash with someone on the mega-industrious end. I've been through this myself. I'm quite close to one end of the line myself. The evals that I get reflect that. Some are great, "excellent, don't change a thing" while others are extremely nasty. My school pastes them all into one very contradictory paragraph, which reads very strangly.

Excellent response, I think you hit it right on the nose. That is precisely it. Some people put in the time to acquire knowledge and that is their strong point, others develop themselves more socially and that is their strong point. The one with knowledge sees the other one as lazy and the one with social skill sees the one with knowledge as a nerd with no life. So its a fact of life that these two will clash b/c they have completely different mindsets.

 

[Boomer]

I have now heard it all. I pity your students! Has it occurred to you like...we don't get paid and you do? We take shelf exams? We PAY to be there? Next year I am sending my students to read and rest once thir educational activities are over. And you do the work you are paid to do. The nerve!

Has it occurred to you that we've already taken those damned exams, and we've already PAID to be in your position? Become an active part of your own rotation experience, and you will gain the respect of your resident(s).

 

[Seaglass]

Dude, we all paid to be there, we all took the shelf exams, etc.

 

[Boomer]

I tell you what...that boy ain't right in the head.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Has it occurred to you that we've already taken those damned exams, and we've already PAID to be in your position? Become an active part of your own rotation experience, and you will gain the respect of your resident(s).

That's a valid point but it's a tad off topic. The thread is about what to do when you DO take and active part in your rotation but for some reason you DON'T earn the respect of your resident. Let's be constructive and not play a blame game. What to do when you're track record is good but you find yourself working for a resident that just can't give you a break in spite of a good performance. It does happen. Or as a resident what can you do if you find yourself just really disliking a student in spite of his doing everything he can to be an active part of the team. We all know what we should do. But it's probably easier said than done. HOW can a resident deal with these feelings. I bet when the stress is on it can be hard. Especially if like most of us you have a longstanding opinion about what "type" of student should be weeded out of the system. Many many of us have this kind of opinion. I'm trying to get over mine.

 

[Trisomy13]

Easy to say that now.
Lets see how cool and understanding you are when you're working into your 36th straight hour of an over 100 hour week and the med student is bugging you about how to fill out a radiology form that you've already explained 20 times.

100 hour weeks don't exist for residents these days. The max is set at 80 hours so they should not have the excuse of being tired to be a prick. Especially in a setting such as my current surgery rotation, where the med students stay post-call for a true 36-38 hour shift, while the residents go home at 6 am postcall because they aren't supposed to work mre than 24 hours at a time.

 

[Boomer]

1. The OP is whining about what goes on during his rotation. As a med student, it is YOUR responsibility to take charge of YOUR OWN education. Then someone bitches about paying to be there and taking shelves--my point, directly on the topic, is that we've already done it.

2. Trisomy--are you really saying that working 80 hour weeks won't make someone tired? That's what I'm taking from the 2nd sentence of your post there. And, for the record, that's 80 hrs per week AVERAGED over 4 weeks. You can certainly work more than 80 in any given week.

3. Residents can work up to 30 hours (24 on call, plus 6 to finish up the associated work).

 

[the citizen]

When asked about the 80 hr week, the surgery residents at my school sort of chuckle and say, "my time sheets always say 80 hours." They are all cool though. One observed that an 80 hour week allows for more drinking time...

I have noticed that most residents just don't think about their med students 24/7 and will always be more than happy to send you home if there is nothing to do. Just ask. The code phrase is:
Me: "so can I help you with anything?" followed by
Resident: "no, why don't you go home."
Me: "you sure?"
Resident: "yes"
Me: foot steps as I run out of the hospital

If the guy is just a jerk, keep in mind it's only 1 month and suck it up.

 

[docmartin]

Put up and shutup. We've all been there. No rotation is perfect.

 

[Pili]

Has it occurred to you that we've already taken those damned exams, and we've already PAID to be in your position? Become an active part of your own rotation experience, and you will gain the respect of your resident(s).

You are hopeless. Your arguments are so illogical that nothing said will make you understand. You just DON'T get it. I'll try to explain in a very simple, childish way: students and residents have different obligations.

 

[Harrie]

100 hour weeks don't exist for residents these days.QUOTE]


You don't actually believe this do you? Are you a med student?

 

[MDrugger]

When asked about the 80 hr week, the surgery residents at my school sort of chuckle and say, "my time sheets always say 80 hours." They are all cool though. One observed that an 80 hour week allows for more drinking time...

I have noticed that most residents just don't think about their med students 24/7 and will always be more than happy to send you home if there is nothing to do. Just ask. The code phrase is:
Me: "so can I help you with anything?" followed by
Resident: "no, why don't you go home."
Me: "you sure?"
Resident: "yes"
Me: foot steps as I run out of the hospital

If the guy is just a jerk, keep in mind it's only 1 month and suck it up.

hahaha right on citizen! That is one of my favorites, I am really easily distracted, so studying in the team room, not so useful for me. So I've learned for me its best to be busy or be gone. If you keep yourself busy while you are there, its no big deal to bail and leave when there is nothing to do. As one of my favorite residents used to say "you're not getting paid, go home!"
I still don't get why the first poster just sad there and watched the guy dictate. i mean did the guys say "no i want you to sit here and be pissed while I dictate?" or did he not bother to ask if he could go. Trust me waiting for them to tell you to leave is like asking permission to go to the bathroom.

 

[livewires]

Phoenixsupra

First let me say that Pheonixsupra, you have really provided some extremely well thought out insight that I will certainly try to absorb. I admit that I do have a strong personality but it only emerges when I feel that I'm being inappropriately disrespected. Students should not be forced into this situation by residents who have the common ignorant philosophy, as several of the posters who aren't even worth listing, that students should just shut up, suck it up, and quit their bitching because "we all had to do it." Well guess what, that only encourages us to be "pricks" when we get into the position to be "pricks." I really believe that the attitude of a program metriculates all the way down from the administration to the attendings to the residents and lastly to the students. Hence why people stay away from malignant programs.

I decided to handle this situation with my ever-so-bastardly residnet by going in early on Fri. and really stepping up my game. I was on top of the pts., I was working directly with the attending who was cosigning orders that I was writing, and preparing discharge papers so they just had to be signed. I thought that my resident would be impressed and I might gain some respect. Instead, he was in complete disarray because he was not in "total" control of everything that was going on, he was upheaveled because I knew more about my pts. that he did and just made it equally as unpleasant for me. And, yes he comprises the half with brains but absolutely NO PERSONALITY!. In fact, he is like working with the Washington Manual with legs. I also think that I intimidate him because I joke around a lot and the pts. eyes light up when I walk into see them because I am gifted with the ability to relate to them and they feel comfortable with me, especially because I tell them to call me by my first name, instead, of this student doctor bull$&#*. His robotic nature can't stand this and I can tell this bothers him. I am sure at this point that he knows my contempt with him because I end up patronizing him and just stare right through him for long periods sometimes.

I would not do well in the army, I know this. But, this is why I am happy to be $200,000.00 in debt. I don't want to put up with the military's bull$%$* and I certainly don't want to put up with it in medicine.

Boomer, you are most likely going to make a poor physician because of your ignorance. I can tell that I would dislike you. In fact, I would probably put my medical career in jeopardy just to smack you in the head if given the opportunity.

Lastly, let me say that I have learned one important thing since being on rotations. That is, you can really tell a lot about a person in 3 minutes of talking to them. I knew right off the bat that this resident would be a bastard just as I could tell the resident before him would be a huge asset to my medical career and would be extremely cool while treating me with respect.

Also, as students, we feel that we should be prepared for anything you ask us to do. When we go off floors to the ER and you are dictating an admission, we feel obligated to stay there with you. It would be unprofessional to just go to the restroom and then run off until you page us. Be decent enough to say, "I will be doing a dictation for a while, meet me at whatever location." That would be a much better way to handle this. Next time, I am going just tell him to page me when he is done with dictation.

I am really happy with the progression of this thread and I expected to find some idiot residents in here like docmartin, Boomer, and especially Seabass with the same attitude as the deuschbag I'm working with. Trust me guys, YOU'RE PATIENTS ARE GOING TO HATE YOUR GUTS! Hope you're happy.

By the way, I'll be sure to post another thread on the egotistical bastard sector of medicine that is known for it's whining and tempor tantrems in the OR. Geeeee, can you guess what sector that is??? My best friend in college is now a surgical resident and he has turned into the biggest bastartly prick of them all. Talk about whining and complaining. I'm planning to go into anesthesia so I'll have to put up with this $%$# all of the time. I know this so I've decided to just patronize them and be passive aggressive toward them (and this goes to my current resident as well) and just handle the situation by doing things like puting sardines in their car air-filter and bricks through their windows. That way I'll be able to listed to them bitch about it the next day in the OR. We'll save this one for another thread another time.

Sound good?

 

[Boomer]

I grow so tired of people who are 2, 3, 4 years behind me in this game telling me that I don't get it. Truth is, you guys are wimps. Truth hurts. Deal with it.

Anesthesia's probably a good choice....if you don't handle confrontation well, just sitting there with a Starbuck's and a newspaper is probably the best career choice you could make.

 

[scootad.]

*scootad grabs the popcorn*

 

[Pili]

*scootad grabs the popcorn*

I feel so sorry for residents that have so little power in their lives that they have to overdo it while residents...a very short lived power, because one month or a very few years down the line...power gone. The student you disrespect today might be your boss tomorrow. To treat anyone with disrespect is not just unprofessional, it's dumb. Interesting to find the ego-inflated resident in the cafeteria when the rotation is over. Where is the power?
Lastly, not all residents are years ahead in knowledge. Some are behind the best students. Most residents know a bit more, but a few know less. 😉 And those, in my experience, are the more ego-inflated.

 

[phoenixsupra]

I grow so tired of people who are 2, 3, 4 years behind me in this game telling me that I don't get it. Truth is, you guys are wimps. Truth hurts. Deal with it.

Anesthesia's probably a good choice....if you don't handle confrontation well, just sitting there with a Starbuck's and a newspaper is probably the best career choice you could make.

Boomer, if you are really tired of listening to people behind you telling stories from their perspective then why are you hanging around a forum for med students??? Is it that you are only happy when you are around peeps lower down than you? You're coming off as sort of a jerk. No offence. Is that your intention? Could you take a look at my type A thread. I'd like to know more, from your point of view about what you think you're achieving with this attidude. I'm being sincere about this. 😎

 

[roja]

livewires- You and others have made some very valid points. While there is definately truth to the fact that everyone should be respectful, considerate and a good teacher, the reality of the entire world is that you are going to have to learn to deal with it all in a way that keeps you from shooting yourself in the *ss.

It sounds like you did the right thing... really being on your game so that the attending can teach you and give you a good eval is a great way to cope. You are going to encounter residents who don't teach, as well as attendings when you are a resident. When you are in practice, you are goign to deal with department heads etc. Its annoying as hell to have to sit around and not be doing something, but unfortunately, it does happen at times. (course, this is why I HATE floors and clinic...)

Unfortunately, you are one of those people with a strong personality. You will probably butt up against this same thing for a few more years until you become an upperlevel resident. But then people will think you are fab. Clinical rotations are not just about learning differential diagnosis and patient management. Its about learning to deal with difficult people, people you don't get along with etc.

And lobbing insults and assumptions about how peoples patients will respond to them really weakens what amounted to a great post.

 

[phoenixsupra]

100 hour weeks don't exist for residents these days.QUOTE]


You don't actually believe this do you? Are you a med student?

In my school the surgical residents are definately not going over 80. We're on the verge of being shut down over that. The internal medicine residents are strictly on 80 also. But in their case if you subtract the time they spend sitting around doing nothing they're probably under 60. 😀

As for "Are you a med student?". You can assume that unless otherwise stated. This IS a med student forum. 😉

 

[roja]

Sooooooooooooo, true. I found my MICU and CCU rotations career affirming. Give me 12 hours in the ED anyday. Sitting around doing nothing KILLS me. 😀



While many residents don't technically *work* over 80, you also have to add in confrences, reading, presentations and research.....

 

[Disciple]

I know this so I've decided to just patronize them and be passive aggressive toward them (and this goes to my current resident as well) and just handle the situation by doing things like puting sardines in their car air-filter and bricks through their windows. That way I'll be able to listed to them bitch about it the next day in the OR.

Just curious,

what rotation are you on?


Seriously though, this is not the last time in your medical career that you'll be dealing with an dingus.

Just last year I was worked for 2 months with the biggest prick attending I've ever had the pleasure of working with. Needless to say he ranted, raved, hassled me the whole two months and gave me a horrible evaluation to top it off. Lucky for me every other resident in our program hates him as and I get along great with the rest of our faculty.

Let it roll off your back. There will be a time after residency, fellowship, etc. when you can tell people like that to go f*** themselves. Until then, do whatever you have to do to deal. Nobody's saying you have to socialize, talk to or even smile at the guy. He sounds like he had a chip on his shoulder, possibly because he's been s*** on by his attendings in the same way.

 

[phoenixsupra]

And lobbing insults and assumptions about how peoples patients will respond to them really weakens what amounted to a great post.

That's absolutely right. But not because they are incorrect or morally wrong or any bs like that. You know you're right about patients liking you better. That's one of your strongest points I'm guessing... and one of his weakest?? I bet patients are a lot more open (ie. honest) with you and you get information from them with ease. We all know that these are attributes of the "ideal doctor". But really, that's got to be hard to be around. Especially since these are skills and attributes that all us studentdoctors know very well we are "supposed" to have. For this "type", your resident, it's must be horrible to be liked less and complied with less than another of the same rank. And from someone lower than you who you're supposed to be teaching to be a doctor. I bet this guy on some level is a gentle guy with a good heart. You know when someone like this guy is bombarding you with qestions. Or when you are with another student who is spitting out perfect textbook answers and asking millions of "look how clever I am" questions when you were so busy balancing rotations with your life that you hadn't the time to study. That
s how I bet he feels when you turn on the charm and exibit your social ease. Ouch.

This guy is a walking washington manual, you said. I sort of guessed that. This is also an attribute of the "ideal doctor ". A LOT of people really believe that doctors are genius's who somehow know everything. Where do they get this impression? From hearing doctors like your resident I'll bet. Really, he'll probably go on to actually write a reference book. Take a look at the guy's and gals who write the washington manual and I'd bet they resemble your resident. I doubt if you or I will ever write a medical text or reference book. But we both need them. Medicine needs us all. Maybe those admissions committes actually do know what they're doing.

When someone attacks you for your strengths, it's natural to defend them and point out the attacker's weakness. The reason why you mustn't do this, as roja said, is because it will just lock you further into this painfull situation not just with this resident but with the next one of his kind.... who is just around the corner BTW. Been there, done that. This is a nose dive. Pull back on the stick....fast. What I'm finding helpful, around this kind of guy is to tone down my personality and just soak up as much of his knowledge as possible. He's probably even got a few bedside manner tricks of his own too just like you're actually quite an accomplished scholer relatively speaking. I gaurentee that if you pay attention to these (however few) and and incorporate them into your style. You'll get a glimpse of gold from this cold fish's heart.

Another thing about the mercyless pimping. This guy actually loves pimping and is sort of addicted to it. Really, if you were ever around this guy in likeminded company they probably pass a fair proportion of their time firing near impossible pimp questions at each other. And loving it. He loves pimping. The fact that you hate it is just a bonus to him. Try and get into it with him. What I've found to work is to sit down and tell him that you'd like to learn that way but that you're a bit out of your league and ask him to actually give you homework, like a chapter of the BRS or something and to pimp you about it the next day. What happens is that you learn a buttload of medicine and he gets to enjoy pimping a less helpless mark. You will both enjoy this better, I promise you. He may even get into this like a kind of "rehab" project. He probably has good motives for being in medicine too. Try it out, it's worked for me.

If you get into the whole passive aggressive thing you will both lose. You'll both end up accentuating your weakness and seeking refuge in your strengths.That way is the wrong way and will stop you from being the awesome doctor you can be. Remember that you're the one with the social skill, he's the reference book. The ball is in your court. And the really nice part is that when this guy feels valuable in your company some of your charm will rub of on him.

A lot of people are making some ****ty comments on this thread. Pay them no mind. People whose characters are more of a balance of these too opposites will get by with both types easier. They most likely experience the same thing often only to a lesser extent. But a difference in degree is a difference in kind.

Peeps, instead of throwing stones try HELPING fools like livewires, myself and our more bookish opposites to be more balanced. I know I can use all the help I can get. 🙂

 

[Vince]

Nurse, can I get 10cc's of Humility for livewires STAT? Thank you. 🙄

 

[AJM]

In my school the surgical residents are definately not going over 80. We're on the verge of being shut down over that. The internal medicine residents are strictly on 80 also. But in their case if you subtract the time they spend sitting around doing nothing they're probably under 60. 😀

Hmmm... I'm curious as to which program you're at. Most of the residency programs at my hospital are not even close to being under 80 hours, especially IM and surgery. Sure, they tweak the numbers to make it look like we're in compliance, but all of us are working 100-hour (or more) work weeks while on inpatient months. And believe it or not, even well-intentioned, well-adjusted residents can have a very difficult time dealing with medical students when they are working those kinds of hours. I personally have had a hard time dealing with this aspect, because I enjoy teaching, and would love to spend more time with my medical students. I try to make time when I can in order to do some teaching, go over physical exams/notes/etc, but often that's not possible. There have been many times that I've been so busy that I've forgotten that our medical student was there and had nothing to do, and I always feel bad about that when I realize this. However, I appreciate when a medical student would approach me to ask if there was anything else they could do because 1. it would let me know that they were still there and 2. it would show me that they were interested in contributing to the team and in taking an active role in their training. Plus, often the student will be rewarded for their assertiveness, and get to go home.

I'm also a bit confused on your comment of IM residents "sitting around doing nothing". That is certainly not the case where I am now, or at any of the other places I've trained. Our days are extremely hectic, and we are constantly fighting against the clock to get all our work done in order to get out at a semi-reasonable time. The only rotations that I've had where I've ever had times just sitting around have been on shift-work rotations such as night float. Perhaps the sitting around you're referring to are the noon conferences, however that's only 5 hours out of the week, and you have to eat lunch anyway. Morning reports are another 5 hours of the week, but those are typically reserved for the senior residents, who usually have more time to go to those. Besides, every residency program in any given specialty has their own required teaching curriculum... even *gasp* surgery and E-med. Other specialties may structure their teaching differently - for example, the e-med program at my hospital has a 5-hour time block once a week that the residents have to attend as well as daily half-hour early morning teaching sessions for the residents on shift (when the ED is a little less busy), rather than 1-2 hours spread throughout each day.


Well, I don't want to get caught up in this ongoing argument/discussion in this thread, so I'll get off my high-horse now, and enjoy the game from the stands... 😀

 

[phoenixsupra]

Hmmm... I'm curious as to which program you're at. Most of the residency programs at my hospital are not even close to being under 80 hours, especially IM and surgery. Sure, they tweak the numbers to make it look like we're in compliance, but all of us are working 100-hour (or more) work weeks while on inpatient months. And believe it or not, even well-intentioned, well-adjusted residents can have a very difficult time dealing with medical students when they are working those kinds of hours. I personally have had a hard time dealing with this aspect, because I enjoy teaching, and would love to spend more time with my medical students. I try to make time when I can in order to do some teaching, go over physical exams/notes/etc, but often that's not possible. There have been many times that I've been so busy that I've forgotten that our medical student was there and had nothing to do, and I always feel bad about that when I realize this. However, I appreciate when a medical student would approach me to ask if there was anything else they could do because 1. it would let me know that they were still there and 2. it would show me that they were interested in contributing to the team and in taking an active role in their training. Plus, often the student will be rewarded for their assertiveness, and get to go home.

I'm also a bit confused on your comment of IM residents "sitting around doing nothing". That is certainly not the case where I am now, or at any of the other places I've trained. Our days are extremely hectic, and we are constantly fighting against the clock to get all our work done in order to get out at a semi-reasonable time. The only rotations that I've had where I've ever had times just sitting around have been on shift-work rotations such as night float. Perhaps the sitting around you're referring to are the noon conferences, however that's only 5 hours out of the week, and you have to eat lunch anyway. Morning reports are another 5 hours of the week, but those are typically reserved for the senior residents, who usually have more time to go to those. Besides, every residency program in any given specialty has their own required teaching curriculum... even *gasp* surgery and E-med. Other specialties may structure their teaching differently - for example, the e-med program at my hospital has a 5-hour time block once a week that the residents have to attend as well as daily half-hour early morning teaching sessions for the residents on shift (when the ED is a little less busy), rather than 1-2 hours spread throughout each day.


Well, I don't want to get caught up in this ongoing argument/discussion in this thread, so I'll get off my high-horse now, and enjoy the game from the stands... 😀

Nah, that's ok. 😀 Thanks for treating us to the view from the high horse. 😀 j/k. The residency hours discussion is interesting but it's sort of a different topic. The folks here are actually not going over the 80. It was played here just the way you describe untill the program was almost shut down. Now they're not screwing around. It'll probably go that way at your hospital eventually. I'd rather not disclose where I am as I think these forums tend to be more honest and helpful when anonymous.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Nurse, can I get 10cc's of Humility for livewires STAT? Thank you. 🙄

And nurse, while you're at it can you get 50cc's of compassion for Vince. 😀

 

[roja]

phoenix- Interesting.. the same thing happened here with GS and IM. Now they are pretty tight about making sure people get the hell out.... Adn with good reason. I have pulled some nasty 36 hours on adn ones brain jsut doesn't function well after that. And its dangerous for those that are writing orders (aka not med students) to do this...

This is an interesting thread, because having been a teacher for 5+ yeasr, and ensuring I was at a residency where I would get to teach, I find that I can empathize with both sides of this arguement.

1-there are crappy residents.
2-there are crappy med students
3- med students shouldn't sit around and do nothing
4- residents shouldn't have to take time out to hunt down thier med students.
5- there is a degree of suck it up that is missing in many med students
6- sitting around waiting as a med student sucks.

and on and on.

As a second year, I heard a panel of third years. A woman with two kids was offering up advice which was fantastic...

She said that what she did was that when she was done with her work, she would find her resident and say, 'I'm done with my work, is there something I can do to help you?'. If given a task she would complete it, then repeat.

I adopted the same thing during clerkships and it works great. The first time I thought it was being pesky, but my eval came back: eager, alwasy willing to ihelp, a great team player, etc...

Another great way to deal with this is an ammended version: I'm done with my work, is there anything I can do to help out? no? okay, I am goign to go and read up on a case... here is my pager number, if you need help with anything feel free to page me. Then I would go off, read and check in every hour or so....

If it was an approriate time to leave, I would say, can I help you with anything before I head out?

 

[therealsecret]

And can I also get an order for 10 ccs of "you're an idiot vince." You make yourself look stupid.

 

[livewires]

Congrats. Vince, you've added your name to te list of idiot residents that sparted me to start this thread. You're in the company of Boomer. Hope you feel good about yourself. Fool. You probably post like this because you have a little penis.

 

[the citizen]

Congrats. Vince, you've added your name to te list of idiot residents that sparted me to start this thread. You're in the company of Boomer. Hope you feel good about yourself. Fool. You probably post like this because you have a little penis.

Congrats. Livewires, you have become what you despise.

PS, phoenixsupra: everyone here (including you, including me) is more type A than B