Be Honest...

[samsoniter]

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So now that ERAS is nearly upon us I have been getting a lot of questions about the low end programs out there. now I realize some may say this is counter productive, but what are the worst programs you interviewed at? I know a lot of students who are less than superstars and would like a better understanding of where the low tier programs are....

 

[drizzt3117]

So now that ERAS is nearly upon us I have been getting a lot of questions about the low end programs out there. now I realize some may say this is counter productive, but what are the worst programs you interviewed at? I know a lot of students who are less than superstars and would like a better understanding of where the low tier programs are....

I'm not going to answer this question cuz it'll piss people off. That being said, the low tier programs are community programs in undesirable locations, followed by academic programs in undesirable locations.

 

[choweee]

Any program you haven't heard of, that tries to convince you that since it's affiliated with an academic medical center that you *have* heard of, you get a great education. Those tend to be the bad programs.

 

[deleted103644]

Anything in NYC that has been on probation in the last 5 years should probably be avoided.

You can check historical stuff on the ACGME website, although it's a pain.

I'd recommend over-applying and waiting until you get interviews to start filtering out programs. Compared to the price tag of 4th year for doing nothing, it's a bargain to apply to additional programs. (Adds work for the admissions committees, but you can worry about them when you're on one.)

 

[ar2388]

the only "bad" progam I have heard of in NYC is Harlem Hospital. At my school it is referred to as a "F" program. they encourage us to apply to A (top tier) and B(mid tier) programs.

 

[deleted103644]

the only "bad" progam I have heard of in NYC is Harlem Hospital. At my school it is referred to as a "F" program. they encourage us to apply to A (top tier) and B(mid tier) programs.

Also Richmond (NYMC), Bronx Lebanon (closed), Nassau.

LICH, Jacobi and Lenox Hill are well below par as well, but at least the locations are decent (except Jacobi).

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Some of the NJ programs are awful, so are a couple of CT programs.

The academic programs are mostly okay, but make sure you ignore affiliations when evaluating programs (eg Columbia >>>>> Harlem, Montefiore >> Beth Israel >> Jacobi).

 

[Doctor D]

Just google unfilled radiology spots and look at the programs that didn't fill...

 

[deleted103644]

Just google unfilled radiology spots and look at the programs that didn't fill...

Not the best method actually.

Programs that did not fill repeatedly are almost all bad, but many programs have to scramble occasionally due to hubris.

It happened with some decent programs in the past two years due to the decline in the number of students applying (and the number of students over-applying). Many programs kept their lists too short assuming they would get people who ended up at better institutions.

These places are still better than the small community program that fills its spots with FMGs outside the match.

 

[greg1184]

Not the best method actually.

Programs that did not fill repeatedly are almost all bad, but many programs have to scramble occasionally due to hubris.

It happened with some decent programs in the past two years due to the decline in the number of students applying (and the number of students over-applying). Many programs kept their lists too short assuming they would get people who ended up at better institutions.

These places are still better than the small community program that fills its spots with FMGs outside the match.

True. I know a program that didn't fill a spot, which was a shocker to me because it is a pretty good program.

As for the FMGS outside the match, the new all-in policy will be very interesting.

 

[drizzt3117]

Iowa didn't fill this year and it's a "top 25" ish program. That being said, the candidates they took in the SOAP had better stats than the rest of their class; I don't think that's a good metric for looking for lower tier programs. Dartmouth also didn't fill.

 

[house4]

Not surprised Iowa didn't fill...I highly doubt anyone would want to live there for 4 years
Curious to know why you consider it a top 25ish program? Well-known faculty?
I highly doubt there can be good diversity of cases in a state with a small population

 

[deleted103644]

Not surprised Iowa didn't fill...I highly doubt anyone would want to live there for 4 years
Curious to know why you consider it a top 25ish program? Well-known faculty?
I highly doubt there can be good diversity of cases in a state with a small population

I've got to imagine Iowa is a thriving cultural center next to Cleveland, and Cleveland Clinic and Case Western both did fine.

Iowa has had some personnel issues, but likely they just overestimated how competitive they were and didn't interview enough of the right people.

 

[drizzt3117]

Not surprised Iowa didn't fill...I highly doubt anyone would want to live there for 4 years
Curious to know why you consider it a top 25ish program? Well-known faculty?
I highly doubt there can be good diversity of cases in a state with a small population

Radiology programs are good because hospitals are good. Iowa has top training programs in ortho, ENT, and other surgical specialties and a very good medicine department and cancer center, plus is a referral center for most of their state and surrounding states.

 

[jellofish]

Radiology programs are good because hospitals are good. Iowa has top training programs in ortho, ENT, and other surgical specialties and a very good medicine department and cancer center, plus is a referral center for most of their state and surrounding states.

Yea... but dude, it's still Iowa...

 

[drizzt3117]

Yea... but dude, it's still Iowa...

There are worse places to live than Iowa City; certainly their location does them no favors but they're a very good program.

 

[Asp]

What's with the hate on Iowa? When you make 800k in Iowa as opposed to 400k in San Francisco, you can travel anywhere you'd like. On your 3 months of vacation versus 6 weeks.

The more I think about, the more appealing these second-tier locations become. The problem with radiology is you'll never break out of the upper middle class in the glamour cities anyway. Better to be king of your little pond than second rate in the big city.

 

[deleted103644]

What's with the hate on Iowa? When you make 800k in Iowa as opposed to 400k in San Francisco, you can travel anywhere you'd like. On your 3 months of vacation versus 6 weeks.

The more I think about, the more appealing these second-tier locations become. The problem with radiology is you'll never break out of the upper middle class in the glamour cities anyway. Better to be king of your little pond than second rate in the big city.

I'd rather be a cab driver in SF than a radiologist in Iowa.

 

[Asp]

I'd rather be a cab driver in SF than a radiologist in Iowa.

I'd rather be happy. Which for males means being higher in RELATIVE status --> having sexual relations with hot women. That's what the location ****** don't get. California, especially southern California, is the hardest market in the entire country to achieve this.

 

[deleted103644]

I'd rather be happy. Which for males means being higher in RELATIVE status --> having sexual relations with hot women. That's what the location ****** don't get. California, especially southern California, is the hardest market in the entire country to achieve this.

I could more readily find attractive women as a cab driver in LA than as a physician in Iowa. Just going by sheer numbers alone. Corn fed fatty vs sun tanned hotty? No contest.

Real life isn't Scarface.

You can get the women before you get the money or the power, you just need to be confident.

 

[Asp]

You can get the women before you get the money or the power, you just need to be confident.

Confidence without something of real value to back it up is an empty shell. You might not necessarily need money or power, but typically then you would be extremely good looking. You make it sound you can get hotties into LTRs just by being confident and having a decent personality. That's not true. It might land you a couple hookups in college or in the club, but that's about it. Confidence is a social signaling mechanism. Don't mistake the signal for that which is being signaled. Quality women won't.

And the idea that a cab driver in LA is going to be scoring more quality chicks than a male radiologist in Iowa, ceteris paribus, is laughable.

 

[deleted103644]

Confidence without something of real value to back it up is an empty shell. You might not necessarily need money or power, but typically then you would be extremely good looking. You make it sound you can get hotties into LTRs just by being confident and having a decent personality. That's not true. It might land you a couple hookups in college or in the club, but that's about it. Confidence is a social signaling mechanism. Don't mistake the signal for that which is being signaled. Quality women won't.

And the idea that a cab driver in LA is going to be scoring more quality chicks than a male radiologist in Iowa, ceteris paribus, is laughable.

I still am questioning your premise that there are hot chicks in Iowa.

Also, if you are relying on wealth alone to land women, good luck with that. It will work, but you might not be happy with the results...

 

[Asp]

I still am questioning your premise that there are hot chicks in Iowa.

Also, if you are relying on wealth alone to land women, good luck with that. It will work, but you might not be happy with the results...

There are hot chicks everywhere. Men are more likely to move for career reasons; women are more likely to stay behind for family and social ties.

And it's not so much wealth, it's the lifestyle. If you're a cab driver in LA, it's gonna be hard to compete with weekends in Cancun, section 111 at Staples, tasting menu at Per Se, first class to Tokyo.. As Kanye West said,

Now I ain't sayin' she a gold digger
But she ain't messin' with no broke *****s

Don't feel bad for the radiologists in Iowa. They are likely killing it.

 

[MossPoh]

Growing up in the Midwest, I noticed most my friends seemed to land cool gals way above their pay grade.

In some of those other areas, there was a much higher chance of that spoiled bratty self-entitled attitude. It took a lot more to impress. I'm pretty easy to please though and don't really need more than a cafe or two, movie theatre and a few nice restaurants. The relative increase of happiness in having multiples of everything doesn't really equal the cost of living there. The people around me are what make my life awesome or miserable.

 

[shark2000]

800K salary in Iowa or anywhere else is a joke these days for a starting salary or even for a long term partner. As a person who has gone through job searching last year let me tell you my experience. You may see it advertised, but these numbers are fake. They will tell you that you have to pay for your malpractice, then you have to pay for the nighthawk, unless you want to work 24 hours, you have 3 months of vacation but you have to pay for it, you have to pay a portion of your income for renewal of the group facilities if you want to become a partner otherwise you will lose your job next year, you will have a deduction of your income if you do not make RVUs equal to others (while you have to read X rays all day and the senior partners read MRs all day).
Anyway, if they advertise 800K you will be lucky to get half of it. If you are looking for 800K income and 3 months of vacation, nothing even close to it exist even in Alaska. There may be very few who make it, but I also can show very few family doctors who make that much.

 

[DrAwsome]

800K salary in Iowa or anywhere else is a joke these days for a starting salary or even for a long term partner. As a person who has gone through job searching last year let me tell you my experience. You may see it advertised, but these numbers are fake. They will tell you that you have to pay for your malpractice, then you have to pay for the nighthawk, unless you want to work 24 hours, you have 3 months of vacation but you have to pay for it, you have to pay a portion of your income for renewal of the group facilities if you want to become a partner otherwise you will lose your job next year, you will have a deduction of your income if you do not make RVUs equal to others (while you have to read X rays all day and the senior partners read MRs all day).
Anyway, if they advertise 800K you will be lucky to get half of it. If you are looking for 800K income and 3 months of vacation, nothing even close to it exist even in Alaska. There may be very few who make it, but I also can show very few family doctors who make that much.

What's rads paying these days?

 

[deleted103644]

What's rads paying these days?

You are paid in packing peanuts and barium.

 

[DrAwsome]

You are paid in packing peanuts and barium.

That is not good. Not sure why so much defensiveness.

 

[deleted103644]

That is not good. Not sure why so much defensiveness.

Was that being defensive? I was going for silly. Damn. 🙁

Average is probably around $300K starting out. Some subspecialties and regions higher. Academics lower.

 

[DrAwsome]

Was that being defensive? I was going for silly. Damn. 🙁

Average is probably around $300K starting out. Some subspecialties and regions higher. Academics lower.

I thought you were being defensive, but maybe my sarcasm meter is off today as Smurfette mentioned. My apologies Mr. Drama. My sis is freaking out about all the doom and gloom. I'm telling her things will hopefully improve but she's thinking of bailing. I don't know much about rads so that's why I thought I'd ask here. Thanks for your input.

 

[deleted103644]

I thought you were being defensive, but maybe my sarcasm meter is off today as Smurfette mentioned. My apologies Mr. Drama. My sis is freaking out about all the doom and gloom. I'm telling her things will hopefully improve but she's thinking of bailing. I don't know much about rads so that's why I thought I'd ask here. Thanks for your input.

Where is she in her training? I'm betting on the market going back up in 5 years or so.

 

[shark2000]

The market is better this year than last. The volume is going higher. The reason for bad market is fake, the need for more radiologists is out there. Imagine they say the price of gold will be 30 percent less in the next 2-3 years, but no one is sure and nobody knows when. You will see a HUGE stagnation in gold market and its price may drop 10-20 percent. But once the price becomes established in 2-3 years, even if it gets 30 percent less, you will see the recovery of market. In my group everybody works their ***** off because they plan to work more now before the major drop in salaries. In 5 years, most of these people, irrelevant of salaries at that time, will slow down or retire. IMO, the market will boom in 6 years. I did not believe it when I was a fellow. Now I strongly believe it, as most radiologists in my neighborhood are the ones that will slow down or retire in 5-6 years.

 

[DrAwsome]

Where is she in her training? I'm betting on the market going back up in 5 years or so.

She starts next year in rads, and not sure what she wants to do for fellowship. I don't know how to advise her really.

 

[DrAwsome]

The market is better this year than last. The volume is going higher. The reason for bad market is fake, the need for more radiologists is out there. Imagine they say the price of gold will be 30 percent less in the next 2-3 years, but no one is sure and nobody knows when. You will see a HUGE stagnation in gold market and its price may drop 10-20 percent. But once the price becomes established in 2-3 years, even if it gets 30 percent less, you will see the recovery of market. In my group everybody works their ***** off because they plan to work more now before the major drop in salaries. In 5 years, most of these people, irrelevant of salaries at that time, will slow down or retire. IMO, the market will boom in 6 years. I did not believe it when I was a fellow. Now I strongly believe it, as most radiologists in my neighborhood are the ones that will slow down or retire in 5-6 years.

She has mentioned concerned about salaries dropping as well. You mention a "major drop in salaries." What do you predict in this regard?

 

[shark2000]

She has mentioned concerned about salaries dropping as well. You mention a "major drop in salaries." What do you predict in this regard?

Salaries will drop around 20-30 percent on average. Slightly more in desirable areas.
Nobody can certainly bet money on it, but most likely it will happen.
If that bothers you, don't do it. Imagine radiology as a field with 30 percent less income, now will you do it? Only you yourself can answer it.

 

[deleted103644]

She has mentioned concerned about salaries dropping as well. You mention a "major drop in salaries." What do you predict in this regard?

Even in the worst possible scenarios, radiology will always make six figures with a relatively controllable lifestyle.

If that means 70 hrs a week at $100k, that's not ideal (and not going to happen), but there are far worse gigs out there. Money != happiness, she'll be fine (although she'll probably complain a lot).

 

[DrAwsome]

Even in the worst possible scenarios, radiology will always make six figures with a relatively controllable lifestyle.

If that means 70 hrs a week at $100k, that's not ideal (and not going to happen), but there are far worse gigs out there. Money != happiness, she'll be fine (although she'll probably complain a lot).

I personally would not work 70 hours a week, and don't think she would either, and especially for 100k. I agree that money is not happiness, but neither is working yourself to the bone for what you can get with a high school education or a bachelor's degree. When teachers in IL are making close to 6 figures and 6 figure retirement packages, as well as police, firefighters, nurses, PAs, CRNAs, etc. I think drs are worth far more than that. I personally would not see the point of pursuing a specialty that would require over 10 years of my life for 100k. Heck I wouldn't see the point of pursuing medicine if that's all that it paid and would leave immediately. I make more than that by owning a business on the side. I don't think sis will be happy, maybe she should bail.

I think drs are taken for granted too much.

 

[ar2388]

i totally would not work 70 hours for 100K. fu.ck that sh.it.
if that were the standard, iw ould not have gone to med school either. i am not in it for the money, but i want to see SOMETHING out of 9 years of training and 100K isnt it. if it were 100K i would have gone into buisness with my dad after college instead.

 

[DrAwsome]

i totally would not work 70 hours for 100K. fu.ck that sh.it.
if that were the standard, iw ould not have gone to med school either. i am not in it for the money, but i want to see SOMETHING out of 9 years of training and 100K isnt it. if it were 100K i would have gone into buisness with my dad after college instead.

Precisely. You can hit 100k with BA/BS of different sorts after like 5 years out of college, and with countless others degrees. Teachers in IL (currently on strike!) are making 76k for 9 months of work and cushy pension benefits. So if the doctor with 3 times as much education makes the same, I would take all those years spent studying and enjoy life. I think as physicians we are getting screwed big time. I just even read what superintendents, and different other politicians are making - from 200k to 400k yearly plus their pension in IL.
How is it that there is always $ to pay everyone but the drs? And working 70 hours a week is insane. Maybe during residency, but normal people, particularly professional people, don't work those hours. If you are making 100k for 70 hours of work, you are making about 50k then realistically. No thanks.

Is this really where medicine is heading? If you really think about, there are less than 1 million drs in the US. Everyone should be making no less thank 300k. That would be a drop in the bucket budget wise. The problem is that many other people are overpaid and since we have no union, no one to stand by us, we are getting screwed big time.

 

[duckie99]

The problem is that many other people are overpaid and since we have no union, no one to stand by us, we are getting screwed big time.

so you rail on teachers and other government employees being overpaid and then complain that doctors need a union?? Do you realize the reason IL overpays so much is because of government unions? They are corrupt. They can vote for their own pay raises.

Having a doctor's union would never occur. 1. Doctors are not usually a part of the dumb masses. 2. Doctors have a very independent nature. 3. Doctors generally don't work more than 50-60 hours/week and most are paid >200k.

And if there even was a union I would never join because I don't want to pay union dues and have my decisions dictated for me.

 

[viper930]

so you rail on teachers and other government employees being overpaid and then complain that doctors need a union?? Do you realize the reason IL overpays so much is because of government unions? They are corrupt. They can vote for their own pay raises.

Having a doctor's union would never occur. 1. Doctors are not usually a part of the dumb masses. 2. Doctors have a very independent nature. 3. Doctors generally don't work more than 50-60 hours/week and most are paid >200k.

And if there even was a union I would never join because I don't want to pay union dues and have my decisions dictated for me.

Some pretty nice chuckles here. Contrary to your misguided beliefs, most doctors are not saints and geniuses. The very fact that we are faced with such uncertain futures testifies that most physicians have failed in equipping themselves to deal with changing times. Also not sure what world you're living in where doctors generally don't work more than 50 hours/week. Finally, nobody cares whether you would join a union but your reasons for not wanting to join one, hypothetically, are laughable.

 

[duckie99]

Some pretty nice chuckles here. Contrary to your misguided beliefs, most doctors are not saints and geniuses. The very fact that we are faced with such uncertain futures testifies that most physicians have failed in equipping themselves to deal with changing times. Also not sure what world you're living in where doctors generally don't work more than 50 hours/week. Finally, nobody cares whether you would join a union but your reasons for not wanting to join one, hypothetically, are laughable.

Most doctors are obviously not saints nor geniuses (something I never even said...) but they still are significantly more intelligent than the average joe. I don't get why you think the future is so uncertain... most of the problems in healthcare are system based and not a result of physician practices. Doctors will make plenty of money in the future. And I said most doctors don't work 50-60 hours. That is true. They have PAs, NPs, are part of large groups, may only work only 4 days/week, etc etc. 60 hours a week is pretty standard for professionals on a salary in most fields. If you want a 40 hour/week job where you make 250k quit medical school and don't pursue any other professional degree either.

But honestly I don't even know why I replied because you gave no reasoning for any of your comments and just bashed another person... Oh and I can't even follow your thought processes. Nice try though bro.

 

[shark2000]

Nobody owes you any money because you are intelligent, you went to school for 20 years, you are smarter than the average person, ......If you believe in free market (which medicine is not) then you eat what you kill, even if you are the dumbest and the weakest.