Beating the system - fake URM status?

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Narmerguy said:
When you've got multiple people that can do the same stuff, what else do you do? Flip coins? Why not pick one out the them that can do a little more. Multiply that by the thousands of applicants. It's not any different than any other selection process be it Ms. America or the Rhodes Scholarship.
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Oh, I don't know. How about judging applicants on relevant criteria. You know, MCAT, GPA scores, and research at research heavy schools? Not pointless checklist bull**** like mopping floors in a nursing home for 200 hours, standing in a corner watching a physician for 50 hours, joining a dozen clubs just to hold an artificial title and list it on a primary application, etc. I'd rather be filtered by hard data and let my fate be decided by a random selection than deal with intangible bull**** like "the interviewer was fascinated with the other guy's missionary to Tanzania and his unicycle hoolahooping talents so he chose him over me."
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circulus vitios said:
Oh, I don't know. How about judging applicants on relevant criteria. You know, MCAT, GPA scores, and research at research heavy schools? Not pointless checklist bull**** like mopping floors in a nursing home for 200 hours, standing in a corner watching a physician for 50 hours, joining a dozen clubs just to hold an artificial title and list it on a primary application, etc. I'd rather be filtered by hard data and let my fate be decided by a random selection than deal with intangible bull**** like "the interviewer was fascinated with the other guy's missionary to Tanzania and his unicycle hoolahooping talents so he chose him over me."
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Numbers and intelligence alone don't make a good physician. You seem to be misinterpreting how schools will likely view things such as "joining a dozen clubs just to hold an artificial title." Keep in mind interviewees will be asked about their contributions and accomplishments with things like this.
 
Just to play ball on the opposite side of the argument- Even *if* you do see the app process as a bunch of hoops to jump through, keep in mind that these hoops are necessary because an under-qualified salesman = lost money. An under-qualified doctor = dead people.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the process, it is at worst a necessary evil, and at best... well, refer to gettheleadout's earlier bullet points.
 
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gettheleadout said:
Numbers and intelligence alone don't make a good physician. You seem to be misinterpreting how schools will likely view things such as "joining a dozen clubs just to hold an artificial title." Keep in mind interviewees will be asked about their contributions and accomplishments with things like this.
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You think a person who would join a club for such a reason wouldn't embellish?
 
alwaysaangel said:
Its a profession that due to its nature requires quite a bit of self sacrifice and pretty constant service to others (often for little to no gratitude).

So yes, showing you want to serve others is more valuable than knowing the inner workings of the healthcare system. That will come later.
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Self sacrifice means long hours and frustration just like in any other profession. I don't see why I need to demonstrate my selflessness (among other things) to be considered for this profession, other than it's another hoop to jump through and a box to check off.
 
dbeast said:
An under-qualified doctor = dead people.
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I would go more with:

an underqualified med student = failed steps, inability to get a license, hundreds of thousands in debt that can't be paid back

a med student that failed to show their interests were well suited to medicine = a miserable 4th year applying to the highest paying specialties with the least amount of hours because they hate medicine

Unfortunately, most of my classmates who fall in the second category looked at the premed process as "jumping through" hoops. They now hate their life.

The application process is not meant to be hoops to jump through, its meant to attract/find people who are well suited to the field. Unfortunately because of some perceived 'prestige' of the field a whole bunch of undergrads are forcing their square selves into round holes and "jumping through hoops" to get into medical school. Frankly that is their own fault and its hard to feel bad for them when they hate their careers.
 
alwaysaangel said:
an underqualified med student = failed steps, inability to get a license, hundreds of thousands in debt that can't be paid back

a med student that failed to show their interests were well suited to medicine = a miserable 4th year applying to the highest paying specialties with the least amount of hours because they hate medicine
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Qualification is seen through GPA, MCAT, and other academic accomplishment. Obviously the system doesn't work as intended if your classmates hate themselves, so what's the point?
 
circulus vitios said:
Qualification is seen through GPA, MCAT, and other academic accomplishment. Obviously the system doesn't work as intended if your classmates hate themselves, so what's the point?
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Head, meet Wall.
 
alwaysaangel said:
Head, meet Wall.
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You're right. This isn't going anywhere. You're justifying a system that you acknowledge as worthless by your own definition of worth but you don't realize it. I'll continue raging against the machine, you will continue raging for the machine.
 
circulus vitios said:
You're right. This isn't going anywhere. You're justifying a system that you acknowledge as worthless by your own definition of worth but you don't realize it. I'll continue raging against the machine, you will continue raging for the machine.
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No, you ignored the pertinent part of my post. The part that explained that: Where I said that people who force themselves into medicine shouldn't be surprised when they hate their careers.

In general, the screening process of application works. Probably only 10% of my classmates are unhappy. Those who force themselves to "jump through hoops" and slip through can't really complain when they miraculously hate medicine as much as they hated their premed lives.

You can have your opinion and think it doesn't work just because you aren't enjoying your hoops. Or maybe you could consider whether the fact that you hate all the hoops says something about how you will feel about medicine.
 
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circulus vitios said:
You think a person who would join a club for such a reason wouldn't embellish?
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Embellishment to the point where the experience would significantly sway the interviewer's opinion of the applicant would likely entail significant lying assuming the actual experience was as worthless as you're implying, and lying to that degree is hard to do well under pressure. I should've also added that because so many applicants list club leadership/things of that sort, adcoms probably just ignore it unless a major accomplishment is listed under it on AMCAS.
 
circulus vitios said:
Qualification is seen through GPA, MCAT, and other academic accomplishment. Obviously the system doesn't work as intended if your classmates hate themselves, so what's the point?
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You seem to be ignoring the fact that intelligence and academic performance alone don't make one a good physician. For that matter, it is impossible to only judge applicants based on these criteria, because then Harvard, for example, has 500 applicants with 4.0's and 35+ MCAT scores (>35 is statistically insignificant, so further comparison is pointless) and has no way of narrowing down who to choose. Obviously it wouldn't be fair to do it randomly, as you sarcastically mentioned, so other factors are taken into account, if not merely because academics fails to compare to the extent necessary, then because schools realize that one can be extremely intelligent and also lack any compassion or humility or other social skills necessary to provide good care.
 
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circulus vitios said:
Qualification is seen through GPA, MCAT, and other academic accomplishment. Obviously the system doesn't work as intended if your classmates hate themselves, so what's the point?
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Ah yes. Grades and MCAT are the holy measures you seek of. THIS is the flawless method to access candidates eh? Perhaps this is indeed why the establishment values actual exposure to healthcare. Do you honestly think a competent physician population can be made through merely taking the top GPA/MCAT combinations? Academic accomplishment is a nebulous term that boils down to grades unless you advocate all the premeds filling their resumes with senseless research or other "academic" pursuits.

If you want to be a science superstar, get a PhD. Being a physician is not, for most, being a scientist. For that reason, grasp of the sciences alone is completely insufficient for being a a good physician.

Stop trolling. You're arguing now for the sake of arguing.
 
Narmerguy said:
Ah yes. Grades and MCAT are the holy measures you seek of. THIS is the flawless method to access candidates eh? Perhaps this is indeed why the establishment values actual exposure to healthcare. Do you honestly think a competent physician population can be made through merely taking the top GPA/MCAT combinations? Academic accomplishment is a nebulous term that boils down to grades unless you advocate all the premeds filling their resumes with senseless research or other "academic" pursuits.

If you want to be a science superstar, get a PhD. Being a physician is not, for most, being a scientist. For that reason, grasp of the sciences alone is completely insufficient for being a a good physician.

Stop trolling. You're arguing now for the sake of arguing.
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:highfive:
 
Narmerguy said:
Ah yes. Grades and MCAT are the holy measures you seek of. THIS is the flawless method to access candidates eh? Perhaps this is indeed why the establishment values actual exposure to healthcare. Do you honestly think a competent physician population can be made through merely taking the top GPA/MCAT combinations? Academic accomplishment is a nebulous term that boils down to grades unless you advocate all the premeds filling their resumes with senseless research or other "academic" pursuits.

If you want to be a science superstar, get a PhD. Being a physician is not, for most, being a scientist. For that reason, grasp of the sciences alone is completely insufficient for being a a good physician.

Stop trolling. You're arguing now for the sake of arguing.
Click to expand...
+1 :thumbup:
 
Narmerguy said:
Ah yes. Grades and MCAT are the holy measures you seek of. THIS is the flawless method to access candidates eh? Perhaps this is indeed why the establishment values actual exposure to healthcare. Do you honestly think a competent physician population can be made through merely taking the top GPA/MCAT combinations? Academic accomplishment is a nebulous term that boils down to grades unless you advocate all the premeds filling their resumes with senseless research or other "academic" pursuits.

If you want to be a science superstar, get a PhD. Being a physician is not, for most, being a scientist. For that reason, grasp of the sciences alone is completely insufficient for being a a good physician.

Stop trolling. You're arguing now for the sake of arguing.
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I'm not trolling.

I was going to write up an elaborate along the lines of "do you honestly think a competition physician population can be made through compliance with unwritten rules of shadowing and volunteering" but then it hit me that you're right. Being a physician isn't being a scientist. Being a physician is largely tolerating the stupidity of bureaucracy and people, and that all of these rules are just a way of testing tolerance to bull****. So I guess the system does serve a purpose, albeit in an unintended and roundabout way.
 
circulus vitios said:
Being a physician isn't being a scientist. Being a physician is largely tolerating the stupidity of bureaucracy and people, and that all of these rules are just a way of testing tolerance to bull****. So I guess the system does serve a purpose, albeit in an unintended and roundabout way.
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Can you identify specific points people have brought up with which you disagree?
 
circulus vitios said:
I'm not trolling.

I was going to write up an elaborate along the lines of "do you honestly think a competition physician population can be made through compliance with unwritten rules of shadowing and volunteering" but then it hit me that you're right. Being a physician isn't being a scientist. Being a physician is largely tolerating the stupidity of bureaucracy and people, and that all of these rules are just a way of testing tolerance to bull****. So I guess the system does serve a purpose, albeit in an unintended and roundabout way.
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What changes do you propose then? You keep making posts filled with passion (and swear words) but don't provide adequate support to your assertions or provide any ideas as to what needs to change.

The current system we have, while it certainly has its share of flaws, is a tried and tested system. As someone else mentioned, it serves as a gatekeeper that weeds you out before you invest a ton of time and money into the profession. Nearly every person who enters medical school ends up becoming a physician; from what I understand, even out of the small percentage of people who leave medical school, only a small portion of them leave due to academic reasons. The current evidence points towards the system being fairly efficient at ensuring that people who get accepted into medical school will successfully complete medical training. I would also argue that jumping through hoops is not specific to the field of medicine; you have to jump through hoops in practically every profession.

So, beyond your obvious dislike of the system, what evidence do you have that suggests another system is better than what we currently have?
 
circulus vitios said:
Self sacrifice means long hours and frustration just like in any other profession. I don't see why I need to demonstrate my selflessness (among other things) to be considered for this profession, other than it's another hoop to jump through and a box to check off.
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What an original thought, I wonder why AdComs haven't caught on yet? If we went straight by the numbers we could throw together a computer script that will complete an entire application cycle in 3 hours and for $20, sounds like a winning game plan to me. :rolleyes:
 
I think you can spin this into a positive by demonstrating intercultural competency. I have a friend who is not Jewish, but she's very involved in the Jewish club on our campus simply because she is interested in the culture. So while joining URM clubs may not help your ethnicity status, it may help in other regards if you're genuinely interested in the cultures.
 
gettheleadout said:
Hoops only exist if you see them as such. If you can't understand why demonstrating:

  • a willingness to be of service to others (volunteerism)
  • that you're comfortable with the medical setting (clinical experience)
  • your understanding that science is the most reliable way to try and heal people (research)
  • that you merit the chance to be in the leading position of a healthcare team over someone else more proactive/hardworking/etc... (leadership)
  • that you can handle the academic rigor of the 50,000-pancake-stack that is M1 and M2 (GPA)
  • that you can handle taking an intense test, like the USMLE, and represent your knowledge and understanding through your results (MCAT)
then I don't know what you think shows that you deserve a spot in medical school over any of the other 40,000 applicants. Every applicant might as well be assumed to be after a spot just for the money, prestige, job security, etc... and thus every applicant must have a background, represented on their application, that demonstrates their merit and passion to the contrary. Processing all of these applications and paying the salaries of people that take time out of their teaching, research, or whatever to review them and interview applicants costs money, and thus the application process is far from free. Deal with it or don't apply, but don't pretend it's all a conspiracy to entertain the administration.
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Bolded points are valid, the others are total BS IMO. How exactly is one demonstrating a willingness to help others by volunteering if they would not have volunteered otherwise had they not been applying to medical school? More like a willingness to conform to the magic formula that some old fart adcoms agreed to as demonstrating some kind of altruistic quality that will supposedly make for good doctors. And don't even say that you would have elected to spend your Saturday nights folding blankets on your own. The same goes for the other crap.

I'd say that a minority of applicants do these things first and then decide to become a physician based on their experiences. If this assumption is correct, how can you say that these are not just hoops to jump through? It doesn't matter to me either way, since I'm going to do them anyway, just like we all need to do. I have no idea how to even begin to construct a better system of weeding out applicants, so I'm not going to go as far as saying that the current one is total bull****.
 
dbeast, you've hit the big time. Grats. :)

Chops369 said:
Bolded points are valid, the others are total BS IMO. How exactly is one demonstrating a willingness to help others by volunteering if they would not have volunteered otherwise had they not been applying to medical school? More like a willingness to conform to the magic formula that some old fart adcoms agreed to as demonstrating some kind of altruistic quality that will supposedly make for good doctors. And don't even say that you would have elected to spend your Saturday nights folding blankets on your own. The same goes for the other crap.

I'd say that a minority of applicants do these things first and then decide to become a physician based on their experiences. If this assumption is correct, how can you say that these are not just hoops to jump through? It doesn't matter to me either way, since I'm going to do them anyway, just like we all need to do. I have no idea how to even begin to construct a better system of weeding out applicants, so I'm not going to go as far as saying that the current one is total bull****.
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I would speculate that at one time those were valid criteria to judge on. Now that everyone and their mother knows that med schools are looking for that, it's harder to find out, for example, whether someone is volunteering because they believe it will look good or if they were internally motivated. So how do you separate the people who look good only on paper versus the genuine thing? Two ways come to mind: the interview and the letters of recommendation. The recommendation letters provide third-party verification, while the interview allows for a deeper interrogation into the applicant's virtues and motivations.

Does that work out in practice? The details of the implementation are too highly variable to solely cast blame on the process itself. But understanding the thought process behind it at least gives us a starting point to propose better solutions to the current system.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Hey look he agrees...although I have to agree some of the earlier posts on here has been pretty funny. And now apparently the threads deteriorated into an argument about admissions

Come on guys somebody needs to bust out an admissions lolcat or something to kill the serialness here
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These efforts have been diverted to another thread. Check it out:

startswithb said:
avg.jpg
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And they STILL got into medical school???!!!!1??? URM cats took my interviews.
 
circulus vitios said:
Oh, I don't know. How about judging applicants on relevant criteria. You know, MCAT, GPA scores, and research at research heavy schools? Not pointless checklist bull**** like mopping floors in a nursing home for 200 hours, standing in a corner watching a physician for 50 hours, joining a dozen clubs just to hold an artificial title and list it on a primary application, etc. I'd rather be filtered by hard data and let my fate be decided by a random selection than deal with intangible bull**** like "the interviewer was fascinated with the other guy's missionary to Tanzania and his unicycle hoolahooping talents so he chose him over me."
Click to expand...

Uh, they do consider your GPA and MCAT, and they often toss applications without further review for low scores. They're then left to sort out the rest.

I also agree with alwaysangel that if these all seem like hoops, then some introspection is merited.
 
mauberley said:
I would speculate that at one time those were valid criteria to judge on. Now that everyone and their mother knows that med schools are looking for that, it's harder to find out, for example, whether someone is volunteering because they believe it will look good or if they were internally motivated. So how do you separate the people who look good only on paper versus the genuine thing? Two ways come to mind: the interview and the letters of recommendation. The recommendation letters provide third-party verification, while the interview allows for a deeper interrogation into the applicant's virtues and motivations.

Does that work out in practice? The details of the implementation are too highly variable to solely cast blame on the process itself. But understanding the thought process behind it at least gives us a starting point to propose better solutions to the current system.
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This is definitely truth. Chops, your point is totally valid that now people have figured out the "formula" and are jumping through hoops. But I don't think the formula was pulled out of an adcom butt somewhere along the line. There are, and have been people who would/did fold blankets on a Saturday night because they wanted to. Over time it became no secret that this behavior impressed adcoms, then it was mimicked by other premeds, now it is a de facto admissions requirement.

But the people pointing to perspective are right. Some premeds end up enjoying their volunteer experience (even if it started out as an item on their checklist), some continue to see it as nothing more than obligatory. The adcoms who care to find out where one stands can probe during the interview; in the majority of cases, talking to a person about his or her volunteer experience will reveal whether it was hoop-jumping or something more. Of course, the best hoop jumpers do manage to "slip through the cracks" by finding some way to disguise motives that often lead to career dissatisfaction (these would be the 10% or whatever alwaysangel mentioned).


For the dumbest post on sdn, this is generating some decent discussion.
 
medzealot said:
These efforts have been diverted to another thread. Check it out:



And they STILL got into medical school???!!!!1??? URM cats took my interviews.
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Those are not URM cats. They are exactly the same looking...cookie cutter applicants. I have a black..err..American Longhair cat and she is just as smart and talented as any other non-URM cat, including Siamese and Persian kitties. She earned her place in my home just like all the other kitties. What she brings to my life is something that can't be measured by simple standardized adoption tests. She was once a stray which is why she is so grateful and loving. Her experience in a shelter is something that a purebred would never understand. She brings hope to all the other shelter kitties as a shining example of what can be done to overcome your odds. This is why I chose a shelter kitty over a purebred kitty. It's simple.
 
Chops369 said:
So dbeast, how does it feel to be called dumb by a top ten med school? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

...I'm kinda jelly
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I know I'm gonna get an infraction for this picture, but it's an accurate representation of how I feel:

troll-face-high-resolution.png
 
Narmerguy said:
Ah yes. Grades and MCAT are the holy measures you seek of. THIS is the flawless method to access candidates eh? Perhaps this is indeed why the establishment values actual exposure to healthcare. Do you honestly think a competent physician population can be made through merely taking the top GPA/MCAT combinations? Academic accomplishment is a nebulous term that boils down to grades unless you advocate all the premeds filling their resumes with senseless research or other "academic" pursuits.

If you want to be a science superstar, get a PhD. Being a physician is not, for most, being a scientist. For that reason, grasp of the sciences alone is completely insufficient for being a a good physician.

Stop trolling. You're arguing now for the sake of arguing.
Click to expand...

:smuggrin::):thumbup:
 
Sounds like a bad idea...

Seems like it would be better to get involved in non-profits and dedicate that time to serving others, as opposed to 'posing' as a URM
 
Wow, this thread totally imploded since the last time I check it. Yowza.
 
If, theoretically, you were a middle-class white guy who got involved in a bunch of URM groups and causes and community outreach programs, I think it would be almost as eye-catching to adcoms as if you were actually a URM. Aren't they just looking for evidence that you will provide care to medically-underserved communities? If that's the case, and you spent 4 years of college reaching out to a URM group, I would expect it to be a huge plus in your applications.
 
dbeast said:
EDIT: Disclaimer for those of you who found this through twitter- the following is clearly sketchy and deceptive (and "dumb", as some have appropriately called it). What it is *not* is an argument about the role of URM status in admissions. In reality, I just used to watch way too much 24 back in the day and like to find conspiracy theories in everything, including possible ridiculous loopholes in the AMCAS system that I hope nobody would ever attempt. Now that this thread has hit the big time, I'd like to remind everyone to try and resist the SDN-induced compulsion to flame one another, and keep the pro/anti-URM debate to a minimum.

This is for hypothetical purposes only, but...

Do you guys think this would work? And if so, would it be too immoral to try to pull it off? On your ACMAS, mark "decline to state" for ethnicity and then join a bunch of URM-interest groups (MEChA, AKPsi, etc.) on campus and get super involved throughout undergrad. I personally think it may score you one or two extra interviews, although it would be a lot of work joining those groups. Bonus points is that interviewers cannot ask about race so you may just get away with it.
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I am not sure this would work, while I admit I know next to nothing about the process schools use to evaluate URM applicants, I do know that some schools (particularly the UC schools) have a seperate committee that is dedicated to reviewing those files, so for those schools, if you do not classify yourself as a URM then your application will not go to that committee and you'll be reviewed w/ all the other applicants.

Also for schools that don't have a seperate committee or sub-committee, whatever you want to call it, is there some sort of advantage in terms of admissions statistics for that particular school that motivates them to fill a projected number of URM seats? Could that be the reason URM applicants have a slightly better chance of acceptance? If so, well then not indicating URM status will hinder them from claiming you as a URM acceptance towards that projected target number and therefore you would not receive any of the benefits towards admission that might come along with that classification.

However I am not sure exactly how the process works, so its all conjecture at this point.
 
dbeast said:
EDIT: Disclaimer for those of you who found this through twitter- the following is clearly sketchy and deceptive (and "dumb", as some have appropriately called it). What it is *not* is an argument about the role of URM status in admissions. In reality, I just used to watch way too much 24 back in the day and like to find conspiracy theories in everything, including possible ridiculous loopholes in the AMCAS system that I hope nobody would ever attempt. Now that this thread has hit the big time, I'd like to remind everyone to try and resist the SDN-induced compulsion to flame one another, and keep the pro/anti-URM debate to a minimum.

This is for hypothetical purposes only, but...

Do you guys think this would work? And if so, would it be too immoral to try to pull it off? On your ACMAS, mark "decline to state" for ethnicity and then join a bunch of URM-interest groups (MEChA, AKPsi, etc.) on campus and get super involved throughout undergrad. I personally think it may score you one or two extra interviews, although it would be a lot of work joining those groups. Bonus points is that interviewers cannot ask about race so you may just get away with it.
Click to expand...

yes but take it a step farther on interview day...

Robert-Downey-Jr-Tropic-Thu.jpg
 
dbeast said:
EDIT: Disclaimer for those of you who found this through twitter- the following is clearly sketchy and deceptive (and "dumb", as some have appropriately called it). What it is *not* is an argument about the role of URM status in admissions. In reality, I just used to watch way too much 24 back in the day and like to find conspiracy theories in everything, including possible ridiculous loopholes in the AMCAS system that I hope nobody would ever attempt. Now that this thread has hit the big time, I'd like to remind everyone to try and resist the SDN-induced compulsion to flame one another, and keep the pro/anti-URM debate to a minimum.

This is for hypothetical purposes only, but...

Do you guys think this would work? And if so, would it be too immoral to try to pull it off? On your ACMAS, mark "decline to state" for ethnicity and then join a bunch of URM-interest groups (MEChA, AKPsi, etc.) on campus and get super involved throughout undergrad. I personally think it may score you one or two extra interviews, although it would be a lot of work joining those groups. Bonus points is that interviewers cannot ask about race so you may just get away with it.
Click to expand...

Ultimately, I do not think it would work very well, although it might work at some schools. Medical schools you send your primary application to can choose to download the picture that was taken of you on your MCAT test date, in order that when you show up in person for your interview, they can make sure you are the same person as the person who earned the MCAT score with which you've been credited.

But congrats on trolling the UMich twitter account :laugh::thumbup:
 
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