because we need more residencies...

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Follow the money.
Yeah, Sheridan is opening new programs as well: Radiology Residency Program Director Job Opening in Kissimmee, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center

At this point, I think the for-profits have decided that with the improving job market, the only way to pay bottom dollar for radiologists (or other physicians) is just to proliferate residency programs like mad (and with the huge expansion in medical and DO schools, there will always be people to take these spots).
 
When does this just become too absurd? Will all hospitals open residencies to get free night coverage followed by cheap wages for attendings due to huge ocersaturation? HCA should not be running residency programs, it's obviously a huge conflict of interest.
 
When does this just become too absurd? Will all hospitals open residencies to get free night coverage followed by cheap wages for attendings due to huge ocersaturation? HCA should not be running residency programs, it's obviously a huge conflict of interest.

HCA is partnering with ucf medical school in Florida, start even further downstream...
 
Yeah, Sheridan is opening new programs as well: Radiology Residency Program Director Job Opening in Kissimmee, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center

At this point, I think the for-profits have decided that with the improving job market, the only way to pay bottom dollar for radiologists (or other physicians) is just to proliferate residency programs like mad (and with the huge expansion in medical and DO schools, there will always be people to take these spots).

this is exactly what happened in pathology.
first they take the oral component out of your exam so that FMGs can pass it.
then they proliferate your residency programs.
then they make you commodities.
 
There's someone always lining their pockets when new medical schools or residencies open up. Same goes for increasing enrollment at universities.
 
this is exactly what happened in pathology.
first they take the oral component out of your exam so that FMGs can pass it.
then they proliferate your residency programs.
then they make you commodities.
Is there no oral component to radiology boards?
 
They are instituting oral component for IR again, i am the first class to take it.
 
I haven't yet even started radiology residency but once I'm in a position of any power in my future practice, I'm going to do all I can to convince my partners/seniors to nix anyone who trained at one of these newer programs. Fellowship directors with the specialty's welfare in mind should do the same. Shut. Them. Down.
 
I haven't yet even started radiology residency but once I'm in a position of any power in my future practice, I'm going to do all I can to convince my partners/seniors to nix anyone who trained at one of these newer programs. Fellowship directors with the specialty's welfare in mind should do the same. Shut. Them. Down.
Harsh.
 

We can either complain on the sidelines or take action. Since "leadership" fails to exert controls and checkpoints to bring the number of trainees to appropriate levels, it'll be up to the PPs to step in.
 
We can either complain on the sidelines or take action. Since "leadership" fails to exert controls and checkpoints to bring the number of trainees to appropriate levels, it'll be up to the PPs to step in.

Pp actually want more trainee for slave labor. Look at florida hospital / sheridan.

Or hospital coporation of america's GME department. Ridiculous.

The IR/DR split was a good start. Just like a surgical residency, it's hard to open a truly bad IR residency as case numbers are needed.
 
We can either complain on the sidelines or take action. Since "leadership" fails to exert controls and checkpoints to bring the number of trainees to appropriate levels, it'll be up to the PPs to step in.
I'd say it's misdirected against the trainees (at least some of them) because it's not necessarily their fault they trained at these newer programs. It doesn't seem fair to target these trainees en masse ("to nix anyone who trained at one of these newer programs").
 
I'd say it's misdirected against the trainees (at least some of them) because it's not necessarily their fault they trained at these newer programs. It doesn't seem fair to target these trainees en masse ("to nix anyone who trained at one of these newer programs").
Doesn't matter, HCA and Sheridan will hire them for pennies, the fewer options grads of these programs have, the better for HCA and Sheridan so interestingly, the worse the residency reputation, the better for them.
 
I'd say it's misdirected against the trainees (at least some of them) because it's not necessarily their fault they trained at these newer programs. It doesn't seem fair to target these trainees en masse ("to nix anyone who trained at one of these newer programs").

Misdirected my foot. There's no apparent way for those out of training to target the programs directly, so the best that can be done is to shut down their grads' options so that applicants see the grim future in store for them should they choose to match there. In addition, it is, in fact, one's fault if one trains at a sub-par program that happens to be an active participant in the field's commoditization. Program caliber aside, I'd say that virtually every applicant to radiology nowadays at least has a nodding acquaintance with long-term concerns in the field; and if an applicant doesn't, that reflects irresponsibility. Applicants should know what these pop-up programs are going to do to the field, and they should be made to know what firm steps radiologists will take to protect it.
 
Misdirected my foot. There's no apparent way for those out of training to target the programs directly, so the best that can be done is to shut down their grads' options so that applicants see the grim future in store for them should they choose to match there. In addition, it is, in fact, one's fault if one trains at a sub-par program that happens to be an active participant in the field's commoditization. Program caliber aside, I'd say that virtually every applicant to radiology nowadays at least has a nodding acquaintance with long-term concerns in the field; and if an applicant doesn't, that reflects irresponsibility. Applicants should know what these pop-up programs are going to do to the field, and they should be made to know what firm steps radiologists will take to protect it.
1) Targeting the residents at these newer programs is at best more like treating the symptoms than the disease. I think you need to target higher up the chain. And I don't see why it's not possible to target leadership.

2) Many people get to choose where they attend residency, but that's not true for everyone. It's these people I'm predominantly talking about. They might be in the minority, but the minority matters too.
 
Radiology is a field I really want to go into but this and oversaturation of the job market is worrying me a lot. Does anyone think this field will end up like pathology?
 
Misdirected my foot. There's no apparent way for those out of training to target the programs directly, so the best that can be done is to shut down their grads' options so that applicants see the grim future in store for them should they choose to match there. In addition, it is, in fact, one's fault if one trains at a sub-par program that happens to be an active participant in the field's commoditization. Program caliber aside, I'd say that virtually every applicant to radiology nowadays at least has a nodding acquaintance with long-term concerns in the field; and if an applicant doesn't, that reflects irresponsibility. Applicants should know what these pop-up programs are going to do to the field, and they should be made to know what firm steps radiologists will take to protect it.

Except those people will be hired pennies on the dollar by HCA and drive down overall salary. Private practice can then exploit them due to low salary.
 
Yes. Esp with the coming of AI. Job market woes are happening in path, rads and rad onc
Do you PMin me a field of medicine you would go into besides radiology or any surgical residencies? Thanks friend
 
Yes. Esp with the coming of AI. Job market woes are happening in path, rads and rad onc
Why is the rad onc market going south? It doesn't seem like you guys have expanded training spots too much in the past 5 years or so. Was it mostly a miscalculation of workforce? Changes in the indications for radiation?
 
Why is the rad onc market going south? It doesn't seem like you guys have expanded training spots too much in the past 5 years or so. Was it mostly a miscalculation of workforce? Changes in the indications for radiation?
50% increase in residency spots in the last decade combined with decreased utilization of radiation (some women can skip it in breast cancer, more hypofractionation/fewer treatments etc) in certain sites.

Check out the rad onc forums for more details, plenty of threads on it
 
Do you PMin me a field of medicine you would go into besides radiology or any surgical residencies? Thanks friend
Rad onc is still good so long as you are flexible on geography, rads probably is the same way, although I think the clinical aspect of rad onc makes it more secure as specialty, long term. Path prob in the worst situation of the three
 
There aren't any job market woes in radiology at the moment besides maybe in SF, LA, NYC and Boston. Sorry to burst any bubbles.
 
There aren't any job market woes in radiology at the moment besides maybe in SF, LA, NYC and Boston. Sorry to burst any bubbles.

Do you think there will ever be a problem finding a job in the next 20 years?
 
When I was applying, the smart money for trainees was on ophtho, rads, cardiology, anesthesia. Not ED. Not derm. I think a quarter of my class went into anesthesia. It wasn't from a lack of foresight. Things change. Different regions and systems put the hurt on you in ways you won't even be able to predict.

It's been said so many times, but again: the old ROAD radiology fantasy is gone. Actually three of the ROAD have issues to work out and there's nothing about the fourth that makes it immune forever. Radiology is still a good field if you go into it without some fantasy blinders on. In radiology you will be intellectually challenged, you will help people, and you will more than likely make a competitive salary for your region and work load level. You will not work 9-5, take hour long coffee breaks, and will not make half a million because you deserve it for your good step 1 score. Frankly, good riddance to those with that vision, because they were the worst.

AI is another bogeyman like outsourcing, or whatever. If there were no bogeyman we would have to invent one for sdn. AI will most likely have a mixed picture on work/life balance and employment.

Another point. PP radiology benefits as much from overtraining as academics. The idea of a PP not hiring the cheaper workers mentioned above is laughable. Academics is happy to expand and PP is just as happy to exploit with sometimes shameful offers and contracts. There are no heros here. They have both convinced themselves with their data that they are doing the right thing... and that sad thing is that there is some half-truth to their position. If the amount of work goes up and the reimbursement goes down, the right way to handle that is not a certainty. The trainee wisdom that you can just hole up in your castle, have fewer docs available to increase demand for your services is only partly corrrect... if you're too expensive in terms of whatever metric they're using, whenever the payer finds a cheaper workaround, they will take it, and bypass your castle. Politically, if necessary. If a PA for derm is found to be non inferior for 85% of cases, poof, the castle will start crumbling. If you are numerous and cheap then politically you're a tougher target. And a lot more of this goes back to politics than most trainees understand. An unfavorable political move hurts much more than trainee slots... and that's much harder to predict.

I support not expanding residencies, and especially poor quality community residencies. You can definitely hurt your specialty by expanding too quickly. But the work for radiology is there... like too much of it. There's just less per unit work. Imaging is not in secular decline, just paying for it is in decline compared with 15 years ago. For rads, trainee slots are a somewhat downstream problem, the problem is more macro for all of medicine and surgery. If you don't control the wallet you will get squeezed, it doesn't matter if you're a brand new FMG pathologist or a surgeon with decades of training.
 
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When I was applying, the smart money for trainees was on ophtho, rads, cardiology, anesthesia. Not ED. Not derm. I think a quarter of my class went into anesthesia. It wasn't from a lack of foresight. Things change. Different regions and systems put the hurt on you in ways you won't even be able to predict.

It's been said so many times, but again: the old ROAD radiology fantasy is gone. Actually three of the ROAD have issues to work out and there's nothing about the fourth that makes it immune forever. Radiology is still a good field if you go into it without some fantasy blinders on. In radiology you will be intellectually challenged, you will help people, and you will more than likely make a competitive salary for your region and work load level. You will not work 9-5, take hour long coffee breaks, and will not make half a million because you deserve it for your good step 1 score. Frankly, good riddance to those with that vision, because they were the worst.

AI is another bogeyman like outsourcing, or whatever. If there were no bogeyman we would have to invent one for sdn. AI will most likely have a mixed picture on work/life balance and employment.


Another point. PP radiology benefits as much from overtraining as academics. The idea of a PP not hiring the cheaper workers mentioned above is laughable. Academics is happy to expand and PP is just as happy to exploit with sometimes shameful offers and contracts. There are no heros here. They have both convinced themselves with their data that they are doing the right thing... and that sad thing is that there is some half-truth to their position. If the amount of work goes up and the reimbursement goes down, the right way to handle that is not a certainty. The trainee wisdom that you can just hole up in your castle, have fewer docs available to increase demand for your services is only partly corrrect... if you're too expensive in terms of whatever metric they're using, whenever the payer finds a cheaper workaround, they will take it, and bypass your castle. Politically, if necessary. If a PA for derm is found to be non inferior for 85% of cases, poof, the castle will start crumbling. If you are numerous and cheap then politically you're a tougher target. And a lot more of this goes back to politics than most trainees understand. An unfavorable political move hurts much more than trainee slots... and that's much harder to predict.

I support not expanding residencies, and especially poor quality community residencies. You can definitely hurt your specialty by expanding too quickly. But the work for radiology is there... like too much of it. There's just less per unit work. Imaging is not in secular decline, just paying for it is in decline compared with 15 years ago. For rads, trainee slots are a somewhat downstream problem, the problem is more macro for all of medicine and surgery. If you don't control the wallet you will get squeezed, it doesn't matter if you're a brand new FMG pathologist or a surgeon with decades of training.

Agreed,

#1 ) Chances are by far that when AI actually gets past all the political and medical red tape and is instituted anywhere, we will have to work with it..this won't mean we get replaced, but we'll likely read even more volume than we already do.

#2) The job market is about to be pretty dang good for the next 10 years. huge numbers of retiring rads all over the country and volume is higher than it's ever been. After 10 years, it's difficult to predict..but so is every other field.

#3) The 9-5 jobs are there. The jobs in great locales are there. The 500k+ per year jobs are there. But, you can't have all 3...This isn't the early 2000's.

Radiology is a great field. We need to be involved with leadership and cut residency spots in the future to keep it competitive. Over expansion of residency spots isn't just a problem in rads..it's a huge problem in anesthesia as well. Rad onc to a lesser extent.
 
Agreed,

#1 ) Chances are by far that when AI actually gets past all the political and medical red tape and is instituted anywhere, we will have to work with it..this won't mean we get replaced, but we'll likely read even more volume than we already do.

#2) The job market is about to be pretty dang good for the next 10 years. huge numbers of retiring rads all over the country and volume is higher than it's ever been. After 10 years, it's difficult to predict..but so is every other field.

#3) The 9-5 jobs are there. The jobs in great locales are there. The 500k+ per year jobs are there. But, you can't have all 3...This isn't the early 2000's.

Radiology is a great field. We need to be involved with leadership and cut residency spots in the future to keep it competitive. Over expansion of residency spots isn't just a problem in rads..it's a huge problem in anesthesia as well. Rad onc to a lesser extent.

Rad onc expanded more than rads percentage wise. I say we are doing ok so far.

Sounds like institutions are reasonable with IR spots too. There are currently about 240-250 IR spots a year fellowship wise. The 2017 match has 124 integrated IR spots and the last match had 14. During the transition period which begins with my year and ends with residents matching around 2018-2019 (we are talking about folks graduating from fellowship between 2019 to 2025) there is going to be a relatively small amount of IR grads entering the work force.
 
Agreed,

#1 ) Chances are by far that when AI actually gets past all the political and medical red tape and is instituted anywhere, we will have to work with it..this won't mean we get replaced, but we'll likely read even more volume than we already do.

#2) The job market is about to be pretty dang good for the next 10 years. huge numbers of retiring rads all over the country and volume is higher than it's ever been. After 10 years, it's difficult to predict..but so is every other field.

#3) The 9-5 jobs are there. The jobs in great locales are there. The 500k+ per year jobs are there. But, you can't have all 3...This isn't the early 2000's.

Radiology is a great field. We need to be involved with leadership and cut residency spots in the future to keep it competitive. Over expansion of residency spots isn't just a problem in rads..it's a huge problem in anesthesia as well. Rad onc to a lesser extent.
Can you elaborate on why so many radiologists will be retiring in the next 10 years?
 
I believe it's because many of the guys in their early late 50's and 60's that should have retired over the past 10 years didn't bc of the big real estate and stock market crash about 10 years ago. Radiology *can* be a chill job , especially if you go part time - something you can easily do into your elder years, as compared to anesthesia, surgery, medicine, etc.

There's a large number of rads that have worked into their mid to late 60's and even early 70's that are retiring...In our job market that's the number one reason we're given for why so many groups are hiring like crazy - many of the older partners and part timers retiring. The number 2 reason is increase in volume.
 
I believe it's because many of the guys in their early late 50's and 60's that should have retired over the past 10 years didn't bc of the big real estate and stock market crash about 10 years ago. Radiology *can* be a chill job , especially if you go part time - something you can easily do into your elder years, as compared to anesthesia, surgery, medicine, etc.

There's a large number of rads that have worked into their mid to late 60's and even early 70's that are retiring...In our job market that's the number one reason we're given for why so many groups are hiring like crazy - many of the older partners and part timers retiring. The number 2 reason is increase in volume.
I think you can easily work into your elder years in general medicine especially if you do mostly outpatients. You can do the same in many medical subspecialties, especially the ones that have outpatient components.

For anesthesia, I've seen lots of anesthesiologists in their 60s and even some in their 70s who are or seem to be doing fine. Most anesthesia procedures aren't particularly physically taxing. Managing a care team of CRNAs could be physically demanding or physically easy, depending on the CRNAs. If someone crashes, then it's more physically demanding (e.g., probably hard to jump on someone's chest and start doing chest compressions as a 60-70 year old), or if you do a lung transplant case or cardiac or something crazy like that, but hopefully you won't need to take those cases at that age.

Of course it's much harder to operate in surgical subspecialties in your elders years. But in some surgical subspecialties (e.g., ophtho, ENT), you could probably focus only on clinics. No or limited operating. It probably won't be as lucrative, but hopefully money won't be a big issue at that age.

I would think you can work part-time in all of these specialties, depending on the practice you're part of. If you're employed, maybe that's not as easy to do though.
 
Is it possible to work part time coming straight out of residency for radiology? Majority of my debt will be paid off with the help of my parents before I start practicing
 
Is it possible to work part time coming straight out of residency for radiology? Majority of my debt will be paid off with the help of my parents before I start practicing

I have definitely seen a lot of night jobs that are part time. 1 week on, 2 weeks off. Not a bad gig if you can handle working nights like that.
 
I have definitely seen a lot of night jobs that are part time. 1 week on, 2 weeks off. Not a bad gig if you can handle working nights like that.

Week on 2 week off night is considered a FULL time job same way ED jobs are full time 20 shifts a month
 
I have definitely seen a lot of night jobs that are part time. 1 week on, 2 weeks off. Not a bad gig if you can handle working nights like that.
I was referring part time being a schedule in which I can just work three or four days a week. I wouldn't mind working weekends as being part of those three days if that matters
 
I was referring part time being a schedule in which I can just work three or four days a week. I wouldn't mind working weekends as being part of those three days if that matters
Yes - several fellows from my program are working three days a week after graduating.
 
I think rads (DR) would be one of the easier specialties to work part time since you don't have to be directly responsible for patients, no clinics, no checking epic every day, etc. (There are drawbacks for not being in a patient facing specialty as well but that's another topic).

Some locums and telerads jobs are part time too, I believe.
 
I think you can easily work into your elder years in general medicine especially if you do mostly outpatients. You can do the same in many medical subspecialties, especially the ones that have outpatient components.

For anesthesia, I've seen lots of anesthesiologists in their 60s and even some in their 70s who are or seem to be doing fine. Most anesthesia procedures aren't particularly physically taxing. Managing a care team of CRNAs could be physically demanding or physically easy, depending on the CRNAs. If someone crashes, then it's more physically demanding (e.g., probably hard to jump on someone's chest and start doing chest compressions as a 60-70 year old), or if you do a lung transplant case or cardiac or something crazy like that, but hopefully you won't need to take those cases at that age.


Of course it's much harder to operate in surgical subspecialties in your elders years. But in some surgical subspecialties (e.g., ophtho, ENT), you could probably focus only on clinics. No or limited operating. It probably won't be as lucrative, but hopefully money won't be a big issue at that age.

I would think you can work part-time in all of these specialties, depending on the practice you're part of. If you're employed, maybe that's not as easy to do though.

No. I disagree. Going to an outpatient clinic and dealing with all the crap that goes with clinic in your 60's? I would lose my mind.

I especially disagree with your stance for anesthesia. My father is an anesthesiologist and sole owner /partner of his practice. Even in his model when people think he's just 'managing' CRNA's and other docs, He ultimately responsible for any problem at the hospital, has to wake up in the middle of the night or morning to go in for calls, etc. It may be better if your'e employed at an outpatient center - but again, who wants to deal with potentially crashing patients, long surgery cases, and sitting bored behind a curtain for hours during a surgery? less than ideal for retirement.

In radiology, you can literally work from home at your own pace. Some telerads companies will let you read whatever volume you want. My uncle is a retired radiologist , is 70, and picks up around 20 CT's and a couple plain films every day in his down time. Is it a ton of money ? No. but it pays all his bills and keeps him relatively entertained and sharp. You can't do that in many, or any other fields.
 
A fellow from our program is working 3 days a week at an outpatient center and earning around 200k . low stress, chill job, much lower income than expected for rads, but her husband is also a doc and she values her time off. Fair enough.
 
No. I disagree. Going to an outpatient clinic and dealing with all the crap that goes with clinic in your 60's? I would lose my mind.
That depends more on personal factors than the specialty itself. Some people navigate all the ins and outs of outpatient clinic quite well into their 60s. You personally might lose your mind, sure, hence probably one reason why you're in rads, but that's not necessarily true for every physician. It also depends on how the practice is set up, but I assume at that age money isn't an issue so people can just self-limit their workload if they want, see fewer patients, work part time assuming their partners are fine with it, take less or no call, etc. And as I mentioned there are likewise medical subspecialties which many people don't have a problem working into their elder years (e.g., endocrinology).
I especially disagree with your stance for anesthesia. My father is an anesthesiologist and sole owner /partner of his practice. Even in his model when people think he's just 'managing' CRNA's and other docs, He ultimately responsible for any problem at the hospital, has to wake up in the middle of the night or morning to go in for calls, etc. It may be better if your'e employed at an outpatient center - but again, who wants to deal with potentially crashing patients, long surgery cases, and sitting bored behind a curtain for hours during a surgery? less than ideal for retirement.
At the risk of stating the obvious, being the sole owner / partner of his practice and thus pretty much running his own business is a big reason he's working so hard, but not every anesthesiologist goes solo like your father. Not even most. There are other practice models out there. Mommy track jobs exist in anesthesia too. They're not perfect, but depending on the specifics they can allow someone to work into their 60s with a decent lifestyle which was the original point, I believe.

Of course none of this matters if someone doesnt like anesthesia, if they "can't stand sitting bored behind a curtain for hours," but the same could be said for any other specialty including rads, where if someone honestly can't stand certain aspects of a specialty, then nothing else will make up for it even if they're only working minimal hours and so on.
In radiology, you can literally work from home at your own pace. Some telerads companies will let you read whatever volume you want. My uncle is a retired radiologist , is 70, and picks up around 20 CT's and a couple plain films every day in his down time. Is it a ton of money ? No. but it pays all his bills and keeps him relatively entertained and sharp. You can't do that in many, or any other fields.
No quarrel here. I never disagreed with radiology having a nice lifestyle, all things considered.
 
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