Beginning pre-med student

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kpearce

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Hello! I'm brand new here- I searched for threads before posting this one and found a couple similar ones, but to the extent of my knowledge there isn't an identical thread on here to read through. (If there is, please direct me to it and I apologize.)

I'll be beginning my undergrad career in a few short weeks at the University of Florida, and my dream is to attend one of the top three medical schools in the country (Harvard, Hopkins, or Penn- with my absolute #1 choice being Harvard; I fell in love with the campus and the prestige as well as the Boston area in general). Although I realize reality may one day drastically differ from my current aspirations, as of right now I want to become a neurosurgeon. I am pretty certain about remaining pre-med, and I know all of the basic application areas: GPA (core as well as science), MCAT scores, research experience, community service, shadowing, essays/personal statements, letters of evaluation/recommendation, etc.
I plan on double majoring in Biochemistry and Neurobiology (an interdisciplinary Neuroscience program at my university). As of now, my rough plan for freshman year includes maintaining a GPA upwards of 3.85 (the goal is 3.9-4.0), while beginning my volunteering at Shands hospital as well as either a local hospice or a free clinic. I also plan on beginning my research in the field of neuroscience with the College of Medicine as soon as possible.

My more specific question would be: what else should I do in order to give myself the best possible chance at the 3 schools I mentioned- specifically, Harvard Med? I believe myself to be in the best possible position to be thinking about these things in terms of time- I have not yet started college and therefore have the entire world of opportunity open to me. This is proving to be both a blessing and a curse, because although I realize how many pre-med students would kill to be in the same position I am right now, I am beginning to feel a bit overwhelmed with the sheer blankness of my slate. Should I go in and right away attempt to secure a leadership position in a relevant organization? Should I begin volunteering at 3 organizations (the hospital, a hospice, and a free clinic), or narrow it down to 2 in order to show deeper involvement in my commitments? Should I attempt to find connections with Harvard graduates, professors, doctors, surgeons, etc. through mentors at Shands? Would that help me at all in the long run? Is there any aspect of my application that I'm completely missing? When would be the best time to start studying for the MCAT? Should I keep it a secret from every new person I meet that I'm pre-med? Also, will my undergrad institution hurt me when I eventually apply to medical school, since it is not an Ivy League? I have heard lots of rumors that top medical schools weigh the prestige of undergrad institutions very heavily, and I hope I'm not out of the game before I've even started. On top of all of these questions, is there any general advice anyone wishes to offer me? Like, things you wish you would have known when you were just starting out?
I sincerely hope I haven't come across as neurotic and obnoxious. Seriously, if you've managed to get through all of this and write a response, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for your time. 🙂
 
Neuroticism and enthusiasm for planning your future have nothing to do with ability. You cannot plan your way to a high MCAT and GPA, nor can you plan to attend a top medical school. Everybody's "goal" is a 4.0, HMS, and neurosurgery. People don't fail to achieve these goals because of a lack of idealism or enthusiasm.

It's very simple:
1) Get an A in every class your first semester.
2) After completing step (1) add research, volunteering, or other EC's the next semester. Get an A in every class your second semester.

And go from there.
 
haha, after your response I realize how similar I am to everyone else first starting out. Thank you for the solid advice.
 
Neuroticism and enthusiasm for planning your future have nothing to do with ability. You cannot plan your way to a high MCAT and GPA, nor can you plan to attend a top medical school. Everybody's "goal" is a 4.0, HMS, and neurosurgery. People don't fail to achieve these goals because of a lack of idealism or enthusiasm.

It's very simple:
1) Get an A in every class your first semester.
2) After completing step (1) add research, volunteering, or other EC's the next semester. Get an A in every class your second semester.

And go from there.

This. You need to settle down in the college setting and get your feet beneath you before picking up numerous EC's. If half-way through your first semester you are excelling and finding that you feel you could add an EC, pick one up. But my suggestion would be to get a feel for college before loading yourself down. One semester of no EC's isn't going to send you to the Caribbean, and for gosh sakes enjoy yourself a little! You're going to college!
 
yes, that makes a lot of sense. 🙂 But I'm wondering, would just one EC maybe be okay to start out with? Like, one volunteering position at the hospital (3 hours per week commitment), or cleaning glassware for a medical professor for a few hours a week? It just seems like I would go crazy staying away from EVERYTHING besides academics my first semester, although I definitely do realize the importance of establishing a very solid GPA right away.
 
yes, that makes a lot of sense. 🙂 But I'm wondering, would just one EC maybe be okay to start out with? Like, one volunteering position at the hospital (3 hours per week commitment), or cleaning glassware for a medical professor for a few hours a week? It just seems like I would go crazy staying away from EVERYTHING besides academics my first semester, although I definitely do realize the importance of establishing a very solid GPA right away.

I guess it varies from person to person, but if you feel that its not going to be a problem then go for it. Just don't overfill your plate by picking up several activities all at once.
 
Don't bank on getting acceptance from one school. As far as I know Harvard had accepted people from
My university in the past and it is just a big state school so I think u still have good chance. I am also applying there soon this cycle and I would be ecstatic just to get an interview. I had know many people with 4.0 and 35+mcat who didn't get an invites. Try to make ur undergrad a pleasant experience, that will be worth more than a paper with Harvard on it. As long as you get into a med school, a md is a md.
 
yes, that makes a lot of sense. 🙂 But I'm wondering, would just one EC maybe be okay to start out with? Like, one volunteering position at the hospital (3 hours per week commitment), or cleaning glassware for a medical professor for a few hours a week? It just seems like I would go crazy staying away from EVERYTHING besides academics my first semester, although I definitely do realize the importance of establishing a very solid GPA right away.

I would do the volunteering. 3-4 hours a week is pretty much nothing. Don't do the lab job though, they might want you to do some other stuff and the number of hours can quickly build up to the double digits. I can't see a professor letting a freshman into his lab anyway.
 
Hello! I'm brand new here- I searched for threads before posting this one and found a couple similar ones, but to the extent of my knowledge there isn't an identical thread on here to read through. (If there is, please direct me to it and I apologize.)

I'll be beginning my undergrad career in a few short weeks at the University of Florida, and my dream is to attend one of the top three medical schools in the country (Harvard, Hopkins, or Penn- with my absolute #1 choice being Harvard; I fell in love with the campus and the prestige as well as the Boston area in general). Although I realize reality may one day drastically differ from my current aspirations, as of right now I want to become a neurosurgeon. I am pretty certain about remaining pre-med, and I know all of the basic application areas: GPA (core as well as science), MCAT scores, research experience, community service, shadowing, essays/personal statements, letters of evaluation/recommendation, etc.
I plan on double majoring in Biochemistry and Neurobiology (an interdisciplinary Neuroscience program at my university). As of now, my rough plan for freshman year includes maintaining a GPA upwards of 3.85 (the goal is 3.9-4.0), while beginning my volunteering at Shands hospital as well as either a local hospice or a free clinic. I also plan on beginning my research in the field of neuroscience with the College of Medicine as soon as possible.

My more specific question would be: what else should I do in order to give myself the best possible chance at the 3 schools I mentioned- specifically, Harvard Med? I believe myself to be in the best possible position to be thinking about these things in terms of time- I have not yet started college and therefore have the entire world of opportunity open to me. This is proving to be both a blessing and a curse, because although I realize how many pre-med students would kill to be in the same position I am right now, I am beginning to feel a bit overwhelmed with the sheer blankness of my slate. Should I go in and right away attempt to secure a leadership position in a relevant organization? Should I begin volunteering at 3 organizations (the hospital, a hospice, and a free clinic), or narrow it down to 2 in order to show deeper involvement in my commitments? Should I attempt to find connections with Harvard graduates, professors, doctors, surgeons, etc. through mentors at Shands? Would that help me at all in the long run? Is there any aspect of my application that I'm completely missing? When would be the best time to start studying for the MCAT? Should I keep it a secret from every new person I meet that I'm pre-med? Also, will my undergrad institution hurt me when I eventually apply to medical school, since it is not an Ivy League? I have heard lots of rumors that top medical schools weigh the prestige of undergrad institutions very heavily, and I hope I'm not out of the game before I've even started. On top of all of these questions, is there any general advice anyone wishes to offer me? Like, things you wish you would have known when you were just starting out?
I sincerely hope I haven't come across as neurotic and obnoxious. Seriously, if you've managed to get through all of this and write a response, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for your time. 🙂

you're going to get flamed really hard for this thread. i'm going to give you serious responses to all your questions because i think its great that you have goals and you sound like you're willing to work hard to achieve them. sure, you'll learn some hard truths along the way and you will most likely "settle" for a school that's not "top 3" and you'll realize that neurosurgery is insane and you'd rather have a life or that you're actually not interested in it....but at this point i'm not going to fault you for having the goals you stated.

here is some advice and answers to some of of your questions:
- don't overdo it freshman year. definitely do not get involved with 3 volunteering gigs as well as research. you have no idea what college is going to be like and how much effort you'll need to put in to maintain a good GPA. I would suggest you start off by volunteering at one place first semester, then once you get your feet wet and you're comfortable with the rigor/pace (either after midterms if you do well or by the end of the first semester) you should seek out research opportunities. You can do this the other way around if you'd like but definitely don't get involved with more than one volunteer activity and research from day 1.
- leadership is important but if, as a freshman, you walk into an organization and declare yourself a leader you'll be laughed at. leadership is earned so choose an organization that does something you're interested in and get heavily involved. stay away from BS premed organizations ...they mean nothing. your much better off showing adcoms down the road that you have interests outside of being a premed.
- specifically seeking out people affiliated with harvard is silly. you will meet people along the way and making a strong connection with someone is way more valuable than making a superficial connection with a harvard grad.
- start studying for the mcat at most ~6 months before you take it
- you shouldn't actively try to keep it a secret but you also shouldn't think you are busier/smarter/more important than everyone else because you're premed. this is what irritates everyone about premeds. premed just means you're going to take a certain set of intro courses. it doesn't make you special and it is certainly not the most challenging thing in college. don't go around telling everyone you're "premed" or that your going to be a neurosurgeon...then you're just alienating yourself and sounding like a douche. identify yourself with your major and if someone asks you what you want to do in the future tell them you hope to be a doctor one day. that's it. but don't mention premed when someone asks for your major, never mention "neurosurgeon", and never complain about how hard you're working because you're premed
- undergrad institution matters in med school admissions. more prestigious/rigorous institutions are looked upon more favorably and can give you a leg up. that's nothing to worry about now because it's not something you can change. just do the best at the school you'll be at and everything will work out.
- general advice: have fun! don't waste your college career with your face buried in books the whole time. go out, have fun, drink (or don't if you don't want to), experience new things, make friends, get laid. 10 years down the road from where you are right now the only thing i regret is not having more fun in college (and mind you i didn't even study that much or do that well in college). i'm not saying party and get a 3.2 ...but i would choose a 3.8 + fun over a 3.95 any day. also being personable is extraordinarily important in med school! once you get to the wards you're using your social interaction skills for 12 hours straight every day, cultivate them and don't let them get rusty!
- general advice: don't use this website, and if you do then do so sparingly. this website is great once you start applying...the interview feedback and other things are invaluable. but it's completely useless as a premed. you already know what you have to do: high gpa, good mcat, research, volunteer, shadow.

feel free to ask questions in this thread or by PM.

good luck!
 
Hustle hard lil brah.

Wasnt there a thread on sdn where some high school kid said he was going to Harvard medical school and 4 years later he came back and was actually matriculating there?
 
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yes, that makes a lot of sense. 🙂 But I'm wondering, would just one EC maybe be okay to start out with? Like, one volunteering position at the hospital (3 hours per week commitment), or cleaning glassware for a medical professor for a few hours a week? It just seems like I would go crazy staying away from EVERYTHING besides academics my first semester, although I definitely do realize the importance of establishing a very solid GPA right away.

1). Don't dual major in biochemical and Neurobiology. Top schools want you to have a high GPA and, for whatever reason, they want you to be interesting. Both of those goals are served by doing an easy, fun major with lots of activities you get very involved in. Nether is served by a dual major, which will detract from your ability to di anything else or even maintain a high GPA. Now I guess you could argue that the neuroscience major could make sense down the line as a base of knowledge for going into neurosurgery, but there isn't a single field of medicine that would take anything from a biochemical major.

2). Start easy and titrate up. Adapting to college should be viewed as a 5 credit class. To maintain you GPA take no more than 12 credits your first semester.

3). Don't wash glass wear. There is nothing as unrewarding as half assed research. Wait until your second semester and then commit for real. Half assed volunteering is more standard, though I would still avoid it.

4). A top medical school is a silly goal. I've said this many timed before: in medicine a degree from a really top university just doesn't buy you much. The extra debt you pile on limits you if you decide to go into a low paying field down the road, and the emphasis on class rank in top rsidencies means you're probably better served by being the biggest fish in a small pond. If you can go to Harvard, you should go to your state school.

5). Have a backup plan. You might not like medicine, and you might nit get in if you do. The risk free way to expand your horizons, have a backup, and build your resume for Med school is to work. Intern or co-op in a field unrelated to medicine for at least two semesters. See have you like the working world and get some pocket change. Job hunts are long, start right now for the summer after freshman year.
 
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skinMD, i totally understand everything you said. I'm quickly realizing that about neurosurgery- that it most likely will not be where I actually end up, which is my I originally addressed that reality may drastically differ from my current aspirations. And if I don't end up at a "top 3" 4 years from now, that's definitely not the end of the world either. But I am a strong believer that it's better to go in with high hopes and dreams in the case that if you don't achieve them fully, you'll still be pretty well-off. Thank you for answering all of my questions with serious, thoughtful responses. I'm going to definitely follow your advice for my first semester. I'll probably stick with just the hospital volunteer job for now, and add things on later if I feel I can handle it. I totally get your response to my "leadership" and "Harvard grad" questions, haha. In my defense, I wasn't asking those questions completely seriously, even though I now realize it made me sound silly. Sorry about that. I think your pre-med status advice is very sound, and I'm definitely interested in separating myself from the stigma attached to pre-med students. At orientation there was a pre-health assembly and one of the slides included average GPA as well as general admittance rate for pre-health schools including dent, vet, as well as allopathic and osteopathic- and no one seemed to know what allopathic even meant, although just a few minutes prior the majority of the room had raised their hands expressing interest in one day becoming a doctor! i was shocked, and it was my first taste of the pre-med group in general.
And I hope I don't get flamed too badly for this- the forum in general strikes me as a generally mature group of professionals. This thread showcases a bit of my naivete, but I definitely need people to tell me how it is so I don't go in seeing everything through unrealistically rose-colored glasses. I am very open to the responses I'm receiving, and they all seem friendly so far. Thank you for your response and have a nice day! 🙂
 
perrotfish, my main reasons for my major choices are a strong interest in neuroscience (as you mentioned) as well as chemistry. I've also read and asked around and a general consensus seems to be that a biochem major will help me for the MCAT as well as the first year of med school, if not for much else. But, again, I'm only a freshman and I know that most freshman end up changing their majors. So anything could happen from this point on.
 
4). A top medical school is a silly goal. I've said this many timed before: in medicine a degree from a really top university just doesn't buy you much. The extra debt you pile on limits you if you decide to go into a low paying field down the road, and the emphasis on class rank in top rsidencies means you're probably better served by being the biggest fish in a small pond. If you can go to Harvard, you should go to your state school.

Many state schools are not that much cheaper than private institutions. Even the UC's have pretty significant "fees" making cost of attendance still somewhere between 50-60k a year vs 60-80k a year at private institutions. You should also take into account that the 'better' schools typical have a larger endowment, allowing for more merit or need-based financial aid to be dished out to students. It's very likely that you can get a cheaper education at Harvard than at your state school.
 
Many state schools are not that much cheaper than private institutions. Even the UC's have pretty significant "fees" making cost of attendance still somewhere between 50-60k a year vs 60-80k a year at private institutions. You should also take into account that the 'better' schools typical have a larger endowment, allowing for more merit or need-based financial aid to be dished out to students. It's very likely that you can get a cheaper education at Harvard than at your state school.

True enough. My point was, within reason, the cheaper school is generally a better value than the better reputation
 
Hustle hard lil brah.

Wasnt there a thread on sdn where some high school kid said he was going to Harvard medical school and 4 years later he came back and was actually matriculating there?

there are probably hundreds of threads like that but only one where op wasn't a ... err... i mean where op delivered.
 
perrotfish, my main reasons for my major choices are a strong interest in neuroscience (as you mentioned) as well as chemistry. I've also read and asked around and a general consensus seems to be that a biochem major will help me for the MCAT as well as the first year of med school, if not for much else. But, again, I'm only a freshman and I know that most freshman end up changing their majors. So anything could happen from this point on.

I had a chemistry degree and took multiple biochem courses. I found it useless for the MCAT and almost useless in terms of 1st year biochem, which in turn was a pass fail class that was basically useless for all future medical endeavors. It barely even showed up on step 1.

For premeds who insist on using undergrad to study for a medical career, I generally think you should learn skills that physicians need and Med school doesn't teach. Fluency in Spanish, small business skills (accounting), nutrition, and a strong understanding of how to use biostat software would all be high on my list. I'm sure there's more.
 
I might be shooting a nail gun at a brick wall, I might as well try...

I interviewed at HMS and Hopkins for medical school (didn't apply to Penn). I can assure you that they are not looking for someone who plans out their life based on the hoops that are our medical school admissions process. This has been made abundantly clear to me going through that process and through conversations with a former HMS admissions committee member later on in med school.

Just to get this out of the way: Do the best that you possibly can in your classes and MCAT. There is no replacement for good grades/numbers. But realize that the difference between a 3.85 and 3.9 or 36 and a 37 is minimal. If you have the opportunity to have experiences and function at 95%, that is better than living in the library and functioning at 100%. You have to be smart and driven, but that is a given. There are enough people with top grades/mcat scores to fill up US medical schools twice over and then some. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that top marks + a large quantity of ECs is the best way of getting into a top school. You can fake an application, but it is harder and certainly less rewarding than spending your time focusing less on the application and more and learning, growing, experiencing.

Good grades/scores are enough to get you into a decent medical school as long as you put together an otherwise reasonable application even if you don't really have something to show for your time in undergrad. But if you truly want to go to a top level school you have to actually produce something or go through experiences that make you a unique individual that medical schools feel like they NEED to take.

As you have acknowledged, your plans might change. More likely than not, this is true. I can tell you this, most people who enter medical school have no clue what it means to be a physician, much less be in a specific specialty.

You will find it eventually, but if you keep on the NSGY kick you can check out http://uncleharvey.com/

ps. Washing glassware is no more valuable than washing dishes in a restaurant. You are still being used as cheap labor and you will learn nothing.
 
A top medical school is a silly goal. I've said this many timed before: in medicine a degree from a really top university just doesn't buy you much. The extra debt you pile on limits you if you decide to go into a low paying field down the road, and the emphasis on class rank in top rsidencies means you're probably better served by being the biggest fish in a small pond. If you can go to Harvard, you should go to your state school.

I won't debate the debt numbers because I really know how schools stack up against each other, but it makes a difference what school you go to. Class rank? Really? Step 1 score > Clerkship grades >> LOR >>>>> Everything else > Pre-clinical grades. The cream will always rise to the top. Top residency spots get filled by people not from the top medical schools, but all evidence I have seen point toward this being an uphill battle.

Since this is a semi-NSGY thread...
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2012_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

There is a healthy smattering of medical schools there, but I think you would agree just eyeballing the lists of where people came from coming from a top school helps.
 
And I hope I don't get flamed too badly for this- the forum in general strikes me as a generally mature group of professionals. This thread showcases a bit of my naivete, but I definitely need people to tell me how it is so I don't go in seeing everything through unrealistically rose-colored glasses. I am very open to the responses I'm receiving, and they all seem friendly so far. Thank you for your response and have a nice day! 🙂

you must be new. also, avoid the lounge (wolf's den) that shows up after you have posted enough times.

my advice to you. Pick a major that will play into your passion. You will do better, and you will like it, and yourself, a lot more. If you think you like neurosurgery now, then neuroscience may be a good major. If the building blocks that make up our bodies intrigue you, and you want to take apart the body one molecule at a time, then it may be biochemistry. If money matters to you, then business or finance (may be a better fit for someone that wants to own their own practice).

Also, do as best you can in EVERY class you take. This means don't overextend yourself too early. Don't flake off. Study hard (and study SMART) for each test. find one or two people that you get along well enough that are taking some of the same classes and help each other. You are stronger as a team, and sometimes explaining something to someone else will help you remember it better.

Don't be a d-bag. Some pre-meds act superior to others. If you don't even mention your goal of medical school to anyone until later, you will probably be perceived as a better person. Once they get to know you, you can talk with your professors about how they can help you get into med school (work in their lab, etc.) but WAIT until they get to know you first. Use office hours to "ask questions" and go to study sessions. take an interest in what the people around you are doing.

There are a lot of stories on here about freshmen that get too much into the party scene and destroy all chances of ANY med school, let alone a top three. If you do party, do it sparingly. Once or twice a month. After a big exam to celebrate. If you find yourself coming home from class and getting drunk more often than once or twice a month, then you may be falling into the party trap.

It is good to set your sights high, but be prepared for something lower. Many people aim for Harvard, but end up in their state school (or even a DO school, which is not a bad thing since I am applying to 12 of them). Don't end up in the Caribbean! It is just not an option any more.

Good luck. Now, delete your SDN account and come back when you have finished at least 2/3 of your prerequisite classes. (gen bio, gen chem, gen physics, organic chem, and some social sciences) Then you can ask advice for MCAT and all the application crap.

dsoz
 
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Just chill out a bit. Chances are you won't get into one of three, but you can try. Chances are you won't get into the residency/fellowship of your dreams. Numbers are stacked against you. Don't look forward to the neuroscience fellowship that's 12 years ahead, and chill out. You're in Florida... go out, get drunk, have fun. If you put all your effort into a 4.0 and 38 MCAT and over-the-top EC's, I'll feel bad for you. This is why people don't like pre-meds.
 
There is a healthy smattering of medical schools there, but I think you would agree just eyeballing the lists of where people came from coming from a top school helps.

I would not agree. Eyeballing that list just tells me what I already know: top schools attract top talent. If a few schools attract almost all the students with >37 MCAT scores and perfect GPAs than its logical that those schools will dominate the top residencies. To see if the school actually helps, you need to normalize for GPA and MCAT. Does the smattering of students with similar matriculant stats at mid range schools do better, the same, or worse? I don't think there's good evidence that an ivy league medicals degree actually does any thing for the geniuses it attracts. They are correlative with success rather than causative.

LORs, AOA, and class rank all factor heavily into residency applications. They are also all an intra class competition. Is it really better to be a middle of the pack student at a top school than a top student at a mid range school?
 
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Neuroticism and enthusiasm for planning your future have nothing to do with ability. You cannot plan your way to a high MCAT and GPA, nor can you plan to attend a top medical school. Everybody's "goal" is a 4.0, HMS, and neurosurgery. People don't fail to achieve these goals because of a lack of idealism or enthusiasm.

It's very simple:
1) Get an A in every class your first semester.
2) After completing step (1) add research, volunteering, or other EC's the next semester. Get an A in every class your second semester.

And go from there.
First post and hit it dead on.👍 This sums it up perfectly.
 
And I hope I don't get flamed too badly for this- the forum in general strikes me as a generally mature group of professionals. This thread showcases a bit of my naivete, but I definitely need people to tell me how it is so I don't go in seeing everything through unrealistically rose-colored glasses. I am very open to the responses I'm receiving, and they all seem friendly so far. Thank you for your response and have a nice day! 🙂

i started typing my response when there weren't any responses and i'm pleasantly surprised by the responses from others. glad to see pre-allo staying classy 🙂

perrotfish, my main reasons for my major choices are a strong interest in neuroscience (as you mentioned) as well as chemistry. I've also read and asked around and a general consensus seems to be that a biochem major will help me for the MCAT as well as the first year of med school, if not for much else. But, again, I'm only a freshman and I know that most freshman end up changing their majors. So anything could happen from this point on.

this is not a good way to choose your major. major in something you are interested in because you will be spending A LOT of time doing it. forget what will or will not help you on the MCAT or first year of med school. all of that stuff is BS. you can do well in both without being a biochem major.
 
I remember when I came out of high school and thought I was going to do a whole bunch of this BS, too. It ended up not happening, because college is a lot more than becoming some archetype pre-med drone. Realistically, having a double major is going to be a living hell for 99% of students. A lot of people think that they're that 1%, and, boy, do they find out quick that they're wrong.

Make friends, explore, take some interesting and totally off-the-wall classes. College is about broadening your horizons; you have the rest of your life to pursue neuroscience. And, who knows? You may even find something you like even more than all that neuro jazz.
 
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