Behavioral Finance?

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Do you think someone should start a Behavioral Finance & Economics fellowship for psychiatrists? I've noticed a lot of psychiatrists acting as full time investment bankers or consultants because insight into the human mind, loss aversion, self-control, and crowd behavior is very important.

Seems like this field is gaining a lot of traction in Economics and Finance, so I was curious if anyone has suggested it yet as a viable psychiatric fellowship and thought about starting it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics
 
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This helps our patients how?
 
This helps our patients how?

Dude, I hope you are joking. If not, then you have your work cut out for you, because you could just as easily add your lame response to 8/10 of the topics in this forum, and 95/100 of the topics on SDN.

allenthecowboy, please don't be discouraged by notdeadyet's response.

As usual, I have nothing to add to this discussion, but am quite interested in what you've brought up. I'm actually quite excited to see the conversation get going.

Interesting topic.
 
I think it's called "the MBA program at the University of Chicago."

Quite a few of Obama's advisers get slaps from the right because they are behavioral economists. So before the businessy folks on the board get excited, my understanding of behavioral econonomics is essentially neoliberalism without the necessary focus on globalization.

Which I think is awesome. But the ones of you on this board who would probably get most excited about this will probably hate it once you learn what it is, based on our previous political knock down drag outs.
 
Do you think someone should start a Behavioral Finance & Economics fellowship for psychiatrists? I've noticed a lot of psychiatrists acting as full time investment bankers or consultants because insight into the human mind, loss aversion, self-control, and crowd behavior is very important.

Seems like this field is gaining a lot of traction in Economics and Finance, so I was curious if anyone has suggested it yet as a viable psychiatric fellowship and thought about starting it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics


Med school would be overkill for such an interest. Probably a masters in psychology or economics (with concentration in beh. finance) would be sufficient. The big investment banks don't look for MDs/PhDs in Psychiatry/Psychology, but instead look for "Quants" - people with Ph.D's in math-intensive fields (e.g., physics).

Besides, having insight into the human mind doesn't mean much when the N is greater than 1. It's about producing and consuming research.
 
Dude, I hope you are joking. If not, then you have your work cut out for you, because you could just as easily add your lame response to 8/10 of the topics in this forum, and 95/100 of the topics on SDN.
No, no, I'm not saying the subject isn't interesting. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question.
Dude, I hope you are joking.
Not at all. The OP wanted to know if Behavioral Economics would be offered as a fellowship.

Is Behavioral Economics clinically focused? Is it something that doctors use to treat patients? If not, it's never going to be focused as a fellowship. Take a look on Freida at the list of fellowships there and you'll find they're all patient-care centric. That's what residencies and fellowships are for.

By my read, something like Behavioral Economics would be studied in a Master's or MBA program. Fellowships are clinical.
 
It turns out that behavioral economics, along with the neuroeconomics (the study of the neural basis of decision-making involving risk and reward), are quite relevant for understanding the etiologhy of disorders of choice and impulse control, including addiction, schizophrenia, OCD and others. I agree that to use such knowledge primarily as a means to help others make more money does not deserve to be a clinical specialty.
 
No, no, I'm not saying the subject isn't interesting. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question.

Not at all. The OP wanted to know if Behavioral Economics would be offered as a fellowship.

Is Behavioral Economics clinically focused? Is it something that doctors use to treat patients? If not, it's never going to be focused as a fellowship. Take a look on Freida at the list of fellowships there and you'll find they're all patient-care centric. That's what residencies and fellowships are for.

By my read, something like Behavioral Economics would be studied in a Master's or MBA program. Fellowships are clinical.

Ah, ok. That actually makes a lot of sense. I jumped the gun on you. Hard to pick up on intentions from text sometimes.
 
No, no, I'm not saying the subject isn't interesting. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question.

Not at all. The OP wanted to know if Behavioral Economics would be offered as a fellowship.

Is Behavioral Economics clinically focused? Is it something that doctors use to treat patients? If not, it's never going to be focused as a fellowship. Take a look on Freida at the list of fellowships there and you'll find they're all patient-care centric. That's what residencies and fellowships are for.

By my read, something like Behavioral Economics would be studied in a Master's or MBA program. Fellowships are clinical.

What about forensic psychiatry?
 
It turns out that behavioral economics, along with the neuroeconomics (the study of the neural basis of decision-making involving risk and reward), are quite relevant for understanding the etiologhy of disorders of choice and impulse control, including addiction, schizophrenia, OCD and others. I agree that to use such knowledge primarily as a means to help others make more money does not deserve to be a clinical specialty.

My intention wasn't to suggest that it should be a fellowship, despite the fact that it can be used to help people make money.

It just appears to be a burgeoning academic field, and one that I would think attract a lot of curious people and spills over into psychiatry.
 
I agree with the above that psychology may be a better approach vs psychiatry in this matter.

Psychiatry focuses on treating mental illness through a medical model. Psychology focuses more on the human mind as a whole, and has more educational aspects within in devoted to attaching values to the reward & aversion aspects someone may face.

Is it something that doctors use to treat patients? If not, it's never going to be focused as a fellowship.

I have seen psychologists use it. Where I worked last year (and this year but as a fellow), specific patients who were not following the rules were sometimes given a behavioral management plan. In that plan, a psychologist wrote down a series of rewards someone could experience if they followed the rules, and this was based on the specific person's needs.

This of course brings in other problems. E.g. if you give a behaviorally problematic patient internet access as a reward for following the rules, what about those patients who followed the rules since the beginning? Do they also get internet access (no they don't.)

Punishing patients is considered illegal in Ohio-which IMHO actually was not a good thing. When I say "punishment" I only mean methods which schools provide such as detention, a "time out" where a patient would be restricted to their room a few hours a day, etc. Several patients I felt could've benefited from a "time out" were they could sit in their room for a few hours for bad behavior. In fact that is more humane IMHO than forced medication, especially when several of the patients who acted out did not so because they were manic, or psychotic, but because they were just being immature. Nope--you could only give rewards, which were not given to patients who followed the rules from the beginning. For that reason, the patients in this facility who will be here for years, some of then intentionally do bad things so they can get the rewards. I know of one patient who every few months intentionally stirs things up so a psychologist will make a plan that gives him rewards. He gets the rewards for a few months, then when he's about to lose them because he's considered a behavioral management success--he stirs things up again.

I have never seen anyone attach specific units of currency to specific people.

A psychiatrist can do the above, just that all the psychiatrists I work with would rather have the psychologist do it. I have also unfortunately seen plenty of psychiatrists who pretty much forget everything outside of psychopharmacology. Such a psychiatrist would not be well equiped to make a behavioral management plan. (Point of info: I am not advocating that psychiatrists limit themselves in this manner, just that this is what several on their own choose to do). When one runs a psychiatrist institution with several psychologists & psychiatrists, its easier from a management perspective to only make the psychologists do this type of work.
 
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I agree with the above that psychology may be a better approach vs psychiatry in this matter.

Psychiatry focuses on treating mental illness through a medical model. Psychology focuses more on the human mind as a whole, and has more educational aspects within in devoted to attaching values to the reward & aversion aspects someone may face.



I have seen psychologists use it. Where I worked last year (and this year but as a fellow), specific patients who were not following the rules were sometimes given a behavioral management plan. In that plan, a psychologist wrote down a series of rewards someone could experience if they followed the rules, and this was based on the specific person's needs.

This of course brings in other problems. E.g. if you give a behaviorally problematic patient internet access as a reward for following the rules, what about those patients followed the rules since the beginning? Do they also get internet access (no they don't.)

Punishing patients is considered illegal in Ohio-which IMHO actually was not a good thing. Several patients I felt could've benefited from a "time out" were they could sit in their room for a few hours for bad behavior. Nope--you could only give rewards, which were not given to patients who followed the rules from the beginning. For that reason, the patients in this facility who will be here for years, some of then intentionally do bad things so they can get the rewards.

I have never seen anyone attach specific units of currency to specific people.

good answer
 
I edited my post before you posted your own. That's why there's some difference.

Some places do use a token based economy--where people are given tokens, and can cash them in for prizes. Sylvan Learning Center does that (or at least used to do it). There are studies showing such an approach can work.

As for the mind, several have proposed there are specific currencies in the mind flowing around, and if it is disrupted, it can cause effects. I have however never seen anyone attach units to it. Such a thing of course would be difficult since for every specific person, several aspects would have values that are relative depending on the moment and the person.

I think if you truly understand someone, you will understand how the economics of the mind works on one person. For those patients who do out of the ordinary acts, even when stabilized on medications (for those disorders where meds work, not the disorders where meds have little effect such as Borderline PD), that type of understanding can take weeks if not months to years of dedicated observation & interviews. Being schooled in the behavioral sciences will only allow us to understand people faster than the layman, but we will still need a long time to get to a point where we can do that.

That's a reason why I sometimes get bugged at mental health providers who sometimes take judgmental stances or assumptions on their patients without getting to know them well, and its a sin IMHO if they do something confrontational without understanding what's going on. E.g. a person is getting bad grades, and the mental health provider comes up with an "oh yeah, I know why you aren't doing well in school, its because you're lazy" and tells that to the patient without properly ruling out ADHD, and environmental causes such the child being sexually abused, the parents, etc.

Imagine the damage a mental health therapist would do to a kid by telling the kid he was lazy, when in fact his poor grades are because he's very upset and confused over his uncle raping him on a weekly basis. If you use confrontation, you better damn well know what's going on.

And I've experienced (and several of my friends) a lot of the above--not from mental health providers but from pre-med counselors. A buddy of mine did terrible in one semester in school, and his counselor came up with the "lazy" comment. His mother died a slow & painful death that term from cancer. Or another student who had a 3.4 (not a 3.9) GPA and is being told "you might as well just give up, you don't have what it takes". That was a big red flag that just made me think a lot of the pressure against pre-meds and medstudents is just total hypocrisy given what we are supposed to do in our field. Take that a step further, and factor in a mental health professional doing this against a patient. I've rarely seen mental health professionals do something this over the line, but I have seen it.
 
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Ah, ok. That actually makes a lot of sense. I jumped the gun on you. Hard to pick up on intentions from text sometimes.
No worries. I'm criminal for that...
 
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