Being a Dr Sucks

Started by Surfer
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The way to attack these problems are PREVENTIVE medicine, not PUNITIVE medicine.

As commented on before - this is extremely naive thinking.

No matter what you "prevent," people still have to die from something. Other than the substance-abuse-related illnesses, few people (in this country) die from truly preventable disease. CAD, CVA's, HTN, these are NOT preventable diseases in the polio-or-measles sense of the word.

Ultimately, old (and young) people will still end up in ICUs being flogged because their families expect miracles and do not know what healthcare costs.

I don't know the validity of this statistic but I've often been told "one third of healthcare costs are incurred in the last year of life."

Not to mention that individual "consumers" of healthcare expect top-dollar medications, tests, and procedures because they are marketed to them and because they do not know what they actually cost.

And how much of healthcare costs are HMO bureaucratic overhead? Quarter? Half? Don't talk to us about CEO and physician salaries.
 
CBC, Chem-10, ABG...each of these is around $200.

Actually, not quite that much... around $60-70 a piece.

Think about that the next time one of these is ordered "just to see."

This sentiment still stands. And, not to mention the excessive phlebotomy we are making the patient, often very ill (why they're in the hospital), endure. Sometimes I think we've gone back to the 17th century and bloodletting (in the form of labs) is a resurrected treatment modality.

🙁

-copro
 
Actually, not quite that much... around $60-70 a piece.



This sentiment still stands. And, not to mention the excessive phlebotomy we are making the patient, often very ill (why they're in the hospital), endure. Sometimes I think we've gone back to the 17th century and bloodletting (in the form of labs) is a resurrected treatment modality.

🙁

-copro

I always think... They probably killed a lot lof people blood letting, but could imagine the look on their face when it worked for dudes with hemochromatosis? :laugh:
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I couldn't agree more with this thread. Its disturbing sometimes to think of the people we must "save." I cannot save anyone from themselves, they will eventually win even if I try my hardest to give them one more opportunity to get it together. The irony is that Its really not the patients that bother me the most about medicine; they aren't the ones that make me question my decision at times. Its the politics of medicine. I had no clue how political the world is. The Egos, narcissism, insecurty and condesending nature of medical education are disturbing. I love how attendings bash other fields as if the other doctors are complete *****s and totally incompetent. I'm so sick of hearing how psychiatrists aren't real doctors and F.P.s don't know squat about what they're doing. Oh and don't get me started on the hillarious turf wars in the hospital- the radiologists hate the cardiologists who steal their nuclear medicine procedures and read their own films etc. etc. etc. All the while, don't forget medical students- you are s***. Nothing better than scum scraped off the bottom of the toilet. I'm becoming numb to the system. Sometimes I just want to be as far removed from this world as possible. I find it sad that the example the doctors themselves are setting is the reason I sometimes question medicine.


very good post and true.. the medical environment is a very toxic one. the politics is harsh. its office politics on steroids.
 
i know it must suck when you feel like you not helping "good people"....but damn some people get caught up in circumstance due to environment, the life they were BORN into..and sometimes tradegy along with their lives being save by trusted doctors as yourself give people a wake up call to change their lives as they should be grateful to be alive still and make more contribution to society and better their lives.

if you say they are hopless people then they will be hopeless people. but they need people like you, the doctors, the mentors, the teachers etc to show them there is hardly mercy but there is hope when they have already deemed this world to be hopeless and therefore engage in acts of violence. people who dont wana help them would be perpetuating the cycle too!!!
 
i know it must suck when you feel like you not helping "good people"....but damn some people get caught up in circumstance due to environment, the life they were BORN into..and sometimes tradegy along with their lives being save by trusted doctors as yourself give people a wake up call to change their lives as they should be grateful to be alive still and make more contribution to society and better their lives.

if you say they are hopless people then they will be hopeless people. but they need people like you, the doctors, the mentors, the teachers etc to show them there is hardly mercy but there is hope when they have already deemed this world to be hopeless and therefore engage in acts of violence. people who dont wana help them would be perpetuating the cycle too!!!
Sorry. Their life isn't copro's fault, or mine, or yours. It's theirs.
 
Sorry. Their life isn't copro's fault, or mine, or yours. It's theirs.

Excuse You. But I did not say that it was anyone else's fault. But your a damn doctor. Stfu and stop complaining. You're suppose to do your best to save peoples lives. Your job isn't to judge people on their lives and deem they are unworthy of healthcare because you deem them "bad people". Everyone is worthy of getting care when needed. In turn, it just so happen that the experience that get from a tragedy or the way a doctor/nurse provided for them can change their outlook.

i hope you people don't act on your thoughts. i hope you guys act more professional to these people you deem "bad". have some damn decency. else you just perpetuating a cycle that makes them think you dont give a phuck about them and the world doesnt give a phuck about them therefore why should they give a phuck about anyone else and might as well gang bang.



edit: also, for people born into these situations...its not always their fault that there aren't always the influences, experiences, resources or opportunities to get out of their circumstance. if only life were THAT simple. environment plays a role in peoples life.
 
Stfu and stop complaining. You're suppose to do your best to save peoples lives. Your job isn't to judge people on their lives and deem they are unworthy of healthcare because you deem them "bad people".

You (and others) keep harping on this "judging" stuff, yet you quickly judge us. I'm not morally judging anyone.

Again, FOTB, I will re-state it so it's clear: people out there, bad people, repeatedly game the system. They see you as a sucker, believe it or not, not as a savior. I'm not talking about someone who can turn their life around given the chance, I'm talking about dirt-bags (whomever's fault it was they got that way) that continuously take advantage of the system. Talk to some of these people sometime. They see you as a "have" and themselves as a "have not", and therefore they feel entitled to take from you however they can.

This bleeding-heart mentality has actually created a subset of our population that is quite capable of being productive members of society into those who have been reinforced into believing that society owes them something. We have enabled and empowered this. We pay people to have multiple children. We put people on permanent diasbility who are very capable of doing something meaningful to contribute to society.

You still have this lofty notion that, because you are a doctor (or soon to be one), that somehow you have the moral responsibility to provide care to those less fortunate than yourself. While this is partly honorable and noble on the face of it, it is also quite paternalistic and doesn't really account for the fact that you are actually hurting that person in the long run by teaching them that they don't really have to do anything for themselves; that they have no real responsibility in their own condition.

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." We give out fish everyday. And, we don't expect anything in return. We have social workers in the hospital who put in applications for public assistance. We excuse large bills (by not expecting payment) every year, as factored into the hospital's budget. Guess what? That money has to come from somewhere.

Until you make someone responsible for themselves, and part of that is by making them pay (just like you and I have to do), you are continuing to perpetuate a system that empowers and enables poverty. The fact that you see that as "harsh" means that you don't understand human nature, and the fact that repeat offenders will continue to abuse the over-generous system that's been created for them until someone finally says "enough's enough."

If you haven't witnessed this yet, I suspect that you either haven't yet spent enough time in the Emergency Department or the Chronic Pain clinic.

Please read and understand this so you fully "get" my position: I could care less if people want to smoke weed, do cocaine, do heroin, whatever. Just don't expect me or the rest of society to pay for their care - repeatedly - especially when we've gone out of our way to provide them that support system the first time they showed up to help them get their life back on track (social worker support, travel and food vouchers, counseling, referral to programs, rehabilitation, etc.). At some point, people have to be responsible for their own decisions. And, if you've repeatedly led a horse to water and they won't drink, then it's time to stop taking responsibility for them. They know what they're doing is wrong. But, they also know that you'll be there to catch them when they fall - without any personal responsibility to do better. So, there's no incentive to change.

Recognize that your attitude is a big part of their problem.

Respectfully,

-copro
 
Excuse You. But I did not say that it was anyone else's fault. But your a damn doctor. Stfu and stop complaining.. You're suppose to do your best to save peoples lives. Your job isn't to judge people on their lives and deem they are unworthy of healthcare because you deem them "bad people". Everyone is worthy of getting care when needed. In turn, it just so happen that the experience that get from a tragedy or the way a doctor/nurse provided for them can change their outlook.

i hope you people don't act on your thoughts. i hope you guys act more professional to these people you deem "bad". have some damn decency. else you just perpetuating a cycle that makes them think you dont give a phuck about them and the world doesnt give a phuck about them therefore why should they give a phuck about anyone else and might as well gang bang.



edit: also, for people born into these situations...its not always their fault that there aren't always the influences, experiences, resources or opportunities to get out of their circumstance. if only life were THAT simple. environment plays a role in peoples life.

I agree with most of what copro says. You are a newbie so you have no idea that many of these people that you are getting so teary eyed about hate you and will see you as a greedy bastard. Your flower power, buy the world a puppy thoughts will change or you will have a very short and bitter career. Especially if you meet my crackhead heroin addict patient with resistant HIV in for repeated I&Ds who thashes about when you try to put in an IV while spitting at you, stating that he is trying to get you to stick yourself.

Life in the USA is about making decisions and living with the consequences. You have life, liberty, and the pursuit. That's it, healthcare is not included, sorry thanks for playing. The rest is up to you. If you don't agree with that, move to China where it's legal for the government to burn your house down with you and your family in it because it's in the way of their new freeway; at least you'll have free healthcare.

Why do I have to cry about you not having health insurance when it only costs $25/month and you spent 4X that on cigarettes? Why do I have to cry about you having 5 kids and working two jobs when you should have been paying attention in math class and not screwing your boyfriend in the bathroom at age 16?

Screw you and screw anybody (Obama) who says doctors should get taxed more just so Mr Mullethead can afford to buy Camels instead of Dorals and put a down payment down on an ATV. I spent a decade and a half busting my tail, sacrificing, paying taxes and health insurance, and investing in my future so I've already earned all that's coming to me. That is the American dream.

It is not the government's job or the doctors' job to bail you out of a sh** life because you made, and/or continue to make bad decisions. It is your own. If you can't cope, do the world a favor: find a heavy rock, find some rope, and find a tall bridge. I'll be happy to take time out of my busy day to show you how to tie the perfect knot. On the way down, pray that you get reincarnated as a kimodo dragon.

Peace and love...word to ya motha. Bougie out.
 
Last edited:
Excuse You. But I did not say that it was anyone else's fault. But your a damn doctor. Stfu and stop complaining. You're suppose to do your best to save peoples lives. Your job isn't to judge people on their lives and deem they are unworthy of healthcare because you deem them "bad people". Everyone is worthy of getting care when needed. In turn, it just so happen that the experience that get from a tragedy or the way a doctor/nurse provided for them can change their outlook.

i hope you people don't act on your thoughts. i hope you guys act more professional to these people you deem "bad". have some damn decency. else you just perpetuating a cycle that makes them think you dont give a phuck about them and the world doesnt give a phuck about them therefore why should they give a phuck about anyone else and might as well gang bang.



edit: also, for people born into these situations...its not always their fault that there aren't always the influences, experiences, resources or opportunities to get out of their circumstance. if only life were THAT simple. environment plays a role in peoples life.

walk in our blood stained shoes carrying three pagers for a day before spouting off such verbal diarrhea
 
I agree with most of what copro says. You are a newbie so you have no idea that many of these people that you are getting so teary eyed about hate you and will see you as a greedy bastard. Your flower power, buy the world a puppy thoughts will change or you will have a very short and bitter career. Especially if you meet my crackhead heroin addict patient with resistant HIV in for repeated I&Ds who thashes about when you try to put in an IV while spitting at you, stating that he is trying to get you to stick yourself.

****. Seriously?
 
I agree with most of what copro says. You are a newbie so you have no idea that many of these people that you are getting so teary eyed about hate you and will see you as a greedy bastard. Your flower power, buy the world a puppy thoughts will change or you will have a very short and bitter career. Especially if you meet my crackhead heroin addict patient with resistant HIV in for repeated I&Ds who thashes about when you try to put in an IV while spitting at you, stating that he is trying to get you to stick yourself.

Life in the USA is about making decisions and living with the consequences. You have life, liberty, and the pursuit. That's it, healthcare is not included, sorry thanks for playing. The rest is up to you. If you don't agree with that, move to China where it's legal for the government to burn your house down with you and your family in it because it's in the way of their new freeway; at least you'll have free healthcare.

Why do I have to cry about you not having health insurance when it only costs $25/month and you spent 4X that on cigarettes? Why do I have to cry about you having 5 kids and working two jobs when you should have been paying attention in math class and not screwing your boyfriend in the bathroom at age 16?

Screw you and screw anybody (Obama) who says doctors should get taxed more just so Mr Mullethead can afford to buy Camels instead of Dorals and put a down payment down on an ATV. I spent a decade and a half busting my tail, sacrificing, paying taxes and health insurance, and investing in my future so I've already earned all that's coming to me. That is the American dream.

It is not the government's job or the doctors' job to bail you out of a sh** life because you made, and/or continue to make bad decisions. It is your own. If you can't cope, do the world a favor: find a heavy rock, find some rope, and find a tall bridge. I'll be happy to take time out of my busy day to show you how to tie the perfect knot. On the way down, pray that you get reincarnated as a kimodo dragon.

Peace and love...word to ya motha. Bougie out.

Hahahahah!!! Who are you pissed at my friend Bougie? I believe your wonderful "no tax for the rich" government is giving a 1 trillion dollar bail out to all those croonies on wall street as we speak! Paid for by you my friend whos been paying all those taxes all these years, yeah thats where its going. And don't think those jerks are struggling to pay their mortgage!! I think thats a pretty big bail out all thanks to the tax payers. Also think hard about a government who believes doctors should be the most highly regulated profession in the country ( thats a fact) and you have these criminals on wall street who are NOT BEING REGULATED and getting serious tax breaks!! OR sister Mary who runs your local catholic hospital that is not paying a damn dime in taxes but is charging 90$ for a band aid. Somehow they find millions for bonuses to shell out to the hospital CEOs. You pay health insurance directly or indirectly and your paying for these 90$ band aids which is a tax buddy! A tax passed on to you by those greedy [explicit here] in business. You don't think 90$ for a band aid or 4-5$ for gas is another form of a tax? hahah!!!! Less tax my a**!!!! hahaha! I'm no bleeding heart but give me a freakin break the only bailing out thats going on right now is our government bailing out all these criminals on wall street. You should take time out of your day to show them how to tie the perfect knot. They should loose their license to practice...oh wait..they're not regulated!!! hahaha
 
Providing health care for the "unfit" is unfortantly a byproduct of our own inability to deliver it specifically to those who deserve it. Can you tell exactly who deserves or doesn't deserve healthcare accurately 100% of the time? If so, how quickly can you figure it out? How do we judge who gets heathcare and who doesn't? Who judges? No one can really answer these questions w/any sort of answers that can be used in the real world. Unfortunatly, since we don't have the luxury of perfect knowlege, in order to ensure that we provide healthcare to everyone that deserves it we must also provide it to those who don't.
 
]I agree with most of what copro says. You are a newbie so you have no idea that many of these people that you are getting so teary eyed about hate you and will see you as a greedy bastard. Your flower power, buy the world a puppy thoughts will change or you will have a very short and bitter career. Especially if you meet my crackhead heroin addict patient with resistant HIV in for repeated I&Ds who thashes about when you try to put in an IV while spitting at you, stating that he is trying to get you to stick yourself.

Life in the USA is about making decisions and living with the consequences. You have life, liberty, and the pursuit. That's it, healthcare is not included, sorry thanks for playing. The rest is up to you. If you don't agree with that, move to China where it's legal for the government to burn your house down with you and your family in it because it's in the way of their new freeway; at least you'll have free healthcare.

Why do I have to cry about you not having health insurance when it only costs $25/month and you spent 4X that on cigarettes? Why do I have to cry about you having 5 kids and working two jobs when you should have been paying attention in math class and not screwing your boyfriend in the bathroom at age 16?

Screw you and screw anybody (Obama) who says doctors should get taxed more just so Mr Mullethead can afford to buy Camels instead of Dorals and put a down payment down on an ATV. I spent a decade and a half busting my tail, sacrificing, paying taxes and health insurance, and investing in my future so I've already earned all that's coming to me. That is the American dream.

It is not the government's job or the doctors' job to bail you out of a sh** life because you made, and/or continue to make bad decisions. It is your own. If you can't cope, do the world a favor: find a heavy rock, find some rope, and find a tall bridge. I'll be happy to take time out of my busy day to show you how to tie the perfect knot. On the way down, pray that you get reincarnated as a kimodo dragon.

Peace and love...word to ya motha. Bougie out
[/B].

UHHHHHHHH.....

I'M A MODERATOR, HUH?

I THINK I SHOULD MAKE THIS A STICKY.

😆

:bow::bow:

BECAUSE OF THE TRUTH OF IT'S CONTENT.

Hard to maintain a philanthropic attitude in medicine after you are exposed to society's REAL TRUTHS.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Why do I have to cry about you not having health insurance when it only costs $25/month and you spent 4X that on cigarettes? Why do I have to cry about you having 5 kids and working two jobs when you should have been paying attention in math class and not screwing your boyfriend in the bathroom at age 16?

Screw you and screw anybody (Obama) who says doctors should get taxed more just so Mr Mullethead can afford to buy Camels instead of Dorals and put a down payment down on an ATV. I spent a decade and a half busting my tail, sacrificing, paying taxes and health insurance, and investing in my future so I've already earned all that's coming to me. That is the American dream.
.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HOLY S HIT, PHILANTHROPIC, NAIVE (naive not meant as an insult....naive meaning you havent seen this yet) MED STUDENT COLLEAGUES, if you could only realize how TRUE this is.....
 
I agree with most of what copro says. You are a newbie so you have no idea that many of these people that you are getting so teary eyed about hate you and will see you as a greedy bastard. Your flower power, buy the world a puppy thoughts will change or you will have a very short and bitter career. Especially if you meet my crackhead heroin addict patient with resistant HIV in for repeated I&Ds who thashes about when you try to put in an IV while spitting at you, stating that he is trying to get you to stick yourself.

Life in the USA is about making decisions and living with the consequences. You have life, liberty, and the pursuit. That's it, healthcare is not included, sorry thanks for playing. The rest is up to you. If you don't agree with that, move to China where it's legal for the government to burn your house down with you and your family in it because it's in the way of their new freeway; at least you'll have free healthcare.

Why do I have to cry about you not having health insurance when it only costs $25/month and you spent 4X that on cigarettes? Why do I have to cry about you having 5 kids and working two jobs when you should have been paying attention in math class and not screwing your boyfriend in the bathroom at age 16?

Screw you and screw anybody (Obama) who says doctors should get taxed more just so Mr Mullethead can afford to buy Camels instead of Dorals and put a down payment down on an ATV. I spent a decade and a half busting my tail, sacrificing, paying taxes and health insurance, and investing in my future so I've already earned all that's coming to me. That is the American dream.

It is not the government's job or the doctors' job to bail you out of a sh** life because you made, and/or continue to make bad decisions. It is your own. If you can't cope, do the world a favor: find a heavy rock, find some rope, and find a tall bridge. I'll be happy to take time out of my busy day to show you how to tie the perfect knot. On the way down, pray that you get reincarnated as a kimodo dragon.

Peace and love...word to ya motha. Bougie out.

I don't want to be gay or anything...but that was fuhking beautiful man.

Agree 100%.
 
I'll add my personal experience to Bougie's theme:

WHADD'YA THINK ABOUT A LADY WHO IS ON MEDICAID....PRESENTING TO THE L&D UNIT IN LABOR....YOU COME TO PUT HER LABOR EPIDURAL IN....

AND THE VIDEO CAMERA SPORTED BY HER AND HER....UHHHHHH.....BOYFRIEND-OR-WHATEVER DESIGNATION...

IS A NICER VIDEO CAMERA THAN YOU OWN?😆😆

All kidding aside,

I've seen this more times than I can count.

Couples on medicaid....who "cant afford medical insurance"...

and yet present themselves with tangible items more expensive than the ones I own.😱
 
Excuse You. But I did not say that it was anyone else's fault. But your a damn doctor. Stfu and stop complaining. You're suppose to do your best to save peoples lives. Your job isn't to judge people on their lives and deem they are unworthy of healthcare because you deem them "bad people". Everyone is worthy of getting care when needed. In turn, it just so happen that the experience that get from a tragedy or the way a doctor/nurse provided for them can change their outlook.

i hope you people don't act on your thoughts. i hope you guys act more professional to these people you deem "bad". have some damn decency. else you just perpetuating a cycle that makes them think you dont give a phuck about them and the world doesnt give a phuck about them therefore why should they give a phuck about anyone else and might as well gang bang.



edit: also, for people born into these situations...its not always their fault that there aren't always the influences, experiences, resources or opportunities to get out of their circumstance. if only life were THAT simple. environment plays a role in peoples life.


UHHH, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, SLIM,

YOU'RE REENACTING WHAT YOU ARE POSTING AGAINST.

You are being a JUDGE.

WHO ARE YOU TO SAY its not OK for a medical professional to experience feelings of being S HIT ON by society's "undesireables"?

SO ITS OK FOR THE CRACK ADDICT TO JUDGE THE SYSTEM, AND SPIT ON THE DOCTOR WITH HIV INFECTED SPIT, BUT ITS NOT OK FOR THE DOCTOR TO JUDGE THE SPITTOR?

This is a FORUM, Slim.

Where people feel free to vent their feelings.

YOU JUDGED the person you found guilty.

UHHHHHH, WHO ARE YOU, AGAIN?

If you are not a judge, or Jesus Christ, then, uhhhhh, Slim,

you are a HIPPOCRITE.
 
Last edited:
I love this thread...esp. for the libertarian undertones in many of your posts. i say copro for pres with bougie as veep.
if you disagree with these guys i invite you to come take care of one of my patients who is a total POS. he hits on me daily and complains that he can't go out with his ladies. he is an amputee because he got drunk and shot his foot off. his neighbors are scared of him because he has been a drunk for years and comes out in the front yard with his shotgun anytime he thinks someone has gotten too close to his fence. he has no teeth, poor hygiene and doesn't think its a problem. he was admitted because one of his dogs bit his common law wife because he feeds them gunpowder to make them more aggressive. he has no kids of his own -- the kids of his common law wife won't help him because he has beaten their mother and them for years. there are also allegations of sexual abuse towards some of the children. he hasn't worked a day in his adult life because he has disability because of shooting his foot off. he is admitted for placement for inability to perform adls. your tax dollars and mine go to pay for this and will pay for him to live the rest of his life out with someone taking care of him. this makes me so angry every day i have to see him, or one of the other hundred patients i have had to take care of like this (and i have barely begun!) i will argue that this is not a human being and has not behaved as one. i hate that i have to take care of him. he calls me ignorant when i tell him that he shouldn't feed the dogs gunpowder. the real tragedy in the situation is that the dog will die. take care of a few of these kinds of patients and it will beat the compassion right out of you. if you disagree with copro and bougie once you have walked a mile in their shoes i will be amazed. your naivete is showing.

btw, those ambulance rides cost $12,000 because they only get paid for some of them -- your ambulance ride pays for the others they have to eat. its a messed system.
 
i say copro for pres with bougie as veep.

The first thing I would do is completely phase out Medicare/Medicaid. Over the next 40 years (yes, forty). It's taken a long time to get us to where we are, and it's going to take a long time to extricate ourselves. They way it would work is that we'd stop having new college graduates pay into the system, and they would not be eligible to receive benefits when they retire.

The second thing I would do is create a two-tiered system of full government write-off with incentive (meaning 125% tax break) for those paying into a health savings account. You would actually get more credit for paying into such a system (>$1 for each dollar contributed) on your annual taxes. This would be capped at a certain amount per year, but the result would be that you get a significant tax break for what you choose to contribute.

The next thing I would do is punish, with additional tax burden, those who choose not to pay into such a system. Hey, if all you offer is a carrot and no stick, then some people won't opt to go for the carrot without the threat of being hit. This would be in the form of an additional tax paid into a catastrophic healthcare fund that can't be touched by any government bureaucrat for other uses. Hospitals that have a large burden of unpaid bills every year could apply to have reimbursement of their unpaid expenses through this fund (not all of it) through whatever was in this account.

After that, I would create a system where you could get an additional tax break for having an annual check-up with a primary healthcare provider.

Next, I would create a system where insurance companies could not collectively bargain, and hide their individual rates they charge, with employers and hospitals anymore. This also would be two-tiered. The first tier would require that individuals would be mandated to hold their own policy and, much like car insurance, pay a premium directly to the insurance company. Again, the person owning the policy would be able to write-off 125% of this cost on their annual taxes. The second tier would require open publication by the companies providing that insurance what their rates paid to physicians and healthcare organizations are. For example, if they reimburse St. Elsewhere Outpatient and Dr. Haywood Jablome $400 for a colonoscopy, and they reimburse Podunk Community and Dr. Hal Duzmiazmel down the street $500 for the same procedure, everyone would know it - including the doctors providing the services.

Lastly, you would get an estimate up front about how much your hospitalization will cost, after you get your preliminary diagnosis. (Don't think that's feasible? Well, then you don't know about the DRG... which is already how Medicare operates.) If you come into the hospital for an emergency, you will be required to put a deposit down (say, $100) and after the doctor sees you, stabilizes you, and tells you what he/she thinks the problem is, you get an estimate for how much it's going to cost to fix it. If that estimate strays more than 20% above the actual cost, that hospital eats it. Mechanics can do this when they fix your car. Trust me when I tell you that hospitals have a pretty damn good idea what your final bill will be when you enter the door. Why don't they provide this information to you when you arrive? Dentists already do this too. This would make care better all the way around. It would force doctors not to keep patients in the hospital unnecessarily (to churn billing). It would reduce unnecessary testing. And, the "stick" in this is that you still would get sued if you get inadequate care. Patients have a right to know what their presumptive diagnosis is and how much that hospitalization will cost, with a high degree of certainty, when they walk in the door. If you run into a complication, they also have a right to know why and how much additional cost it will be before you provide them additional treatment.

We don't have these conversations with patients when they come in the door because we have this lofty notion that we are there to make them better, no matter what. We also don't have these conversations because we have no earthly idea how expensive (i.e. what we bill) our treatments and tests we offer are.

At the end of the year, you can see who's racking up huge charges compared to the patient's outcome. You'd probably wouldn't be surprised that some of the crappiest doctors result in some of the biggest charges for a variety of reasons. And, they often have worse outcomes. You identify these individuals and subject them to either additional training (in the form of CME, etc.), or dismissal from the hospital. We're talking about averages here, and we have the ability to identify trouble makers, from patients to care givers, but why we don't routinely do it - or, for those healthcare systems that do, why they don't use that information to effect change - is a mystery to me.

This is ultimately a business, folks. And, the goal of that business is to provide the best care to the most people in the most cost-effective way. We need to divorce ourselves from this lofty and paternalistic notion that those two things are separate. We could learn a huge lesson from how dentists operate in that regard.

-copro
 
Let me give you an example of how the 125% write-off would work...

You have a minimun wage worker ($7.25/hr), working 40 hours/week, who has a severe kidney condition. There annual salary would be $14,500. The actuary at various insurance companies figures that their annual health insurance cost, to cover that illness, will be about $56,000. They know that their estimate is pretty accurate based upon what other patients with similar conditions bill annually, and they have a "herd" approach so they can defray some of that cost to other policy holders. So, after getting multiple quotes, the "low bidder" decides to sell that patient an individual policy at $1,600/month. 😱

"Now, wait a minute? How the hell is this person going to pay $1,600/month when they are only bringing in $1,208/month. This won't work, copro."

We have enough computer power, trust me, to do appropriate accounting. And, we require the patient to go with the lowest bidder in order to get the tax write-off (if they want to be subsidized). The patient/person would be able to file with the government what their actual cost out-of-pocket would be to pay their insurance premium. They would get an estimate of their annual healthcare cost, and the government would reimburse that patient for each payment at $2000.

Do you see what you've just done? You've created a system that, provided the person is contributing to society and filing a tax return, is actually getting a bonus from the government each year and increasing their annual in-pocket amount of money by 25%. This doesn't punish the individual who is sick. In some small way, it might even be considered as rewarding them. But, they are covered and the plan is administered by a private company who will do a better job of insuring that the patient's needs are met better than any government agency can.

Also, by requiring bidding for lowest premium, you've created a competitive system for the individual and the insurance company to provide the lowest cost to cover the services. It also requires hospitals, who can see the published data on what other healthcare organizations are charging for those service, to be competitive to keep their costs down.

People can still pay extra money, or negotiate directly with the insurance company, by opting out of the 125% tax write-off rule (and the details of that can be worked out by, say, letting people write-off only 80% if they don't want to choose the lowest bidder) if they want more premium care or a greater ability to choose.

Either way, you have more people covered and youv'e created a carrot/stick approach that incentivizes people to get coverage. You've also made an end-road into the poverty cycle of illness.

Discuss. 🙂

-copro
 
I love this thread...esp. for the libertarian undertones in many of your posts. i say copro for pres with bougie as veep.
if you disagree with these guys i invite you to come take care of one of my patients who is a total POS.....

Why find out the social history of such patients? Maybe this stuff just came up, but from my experience it's really only the nurses who try their hardest to dig for this info. Look, I've read the thread and agree 100% with copro as I'm a Libertarian myself. But during a month in the SICU where a good amount of the patients were there by their own personal decisions, one of the trauma surgeons gave me some great advice. He tries as hard as he can to NOT know the social history of his patients. He found out early on that such knowledge affected his mindset which surely at some point can affect treatment decisions.
 
Why find out the social history of such patients? Maybe this stuff just came up, but from my experience it's really only the nurses who try their hardest to dig for this info. Look, I've read the thread and agree 100% with copro as I'm a Libertarian myself. But during a month in the SICU where a good amount of the patients were there by their own personal decisions, one of the trauma surgeons gave me some great advice. He tries as hard as he can to NOT know the social history of his patients. He found out early on that such knowledge affected his mindset which surely at some point can affect treatment decisions.

didn't try to find this stuff out but the guy was a poor historian. he was brought in by the SW acute intervention team who related the details of his home situation to me for his h and p. she also told me the stuff about his family as it was relevant to his placement issues as we were going to have to start the procedure for guardianship. i agree in the future i don't need to know this stuff...but unfortunately as a 'tern on medicine, social history et al. is relevant esp for someone admitted for placement. yet another reason why i am happy to leave medicine behind and inch my way closer to anes...
 
Surfer,
medicine doesn't always suck.
It sucks now b/c you are house staff and you are probably on a hard rotation. Life gets better. You don't say what specialty you are in, but difficult patients (i.e. aggressive ones, substance addicts, those with difficult families, etc.) and difficult situations (i.e. long, long hours and "dirty" jobs that you have to do, and difficult nurses) tend to localize somewhat to certain areas of the hospital. The ER, the trauma center, the resident primary care clinic, etc. will have higher %ages of patients who don't want to follow your advice and may be ignorant of what your job entails and not appreciate what you are trying to do for them. You just have to suck it up, do your job but not get sucked in to any type of conflict (with patients, their families, nurses, etc.). Of course that is easier said than done oftentimes, and I can't do anything about your long hours or lowish pay as a resident, but neither can you. Stewing about the situation won't make it better. Use it as a learning experience to help decide what you want for your career (i.e. if the coolness of operating and doing complex surgeries doesn't make up for dealing with social deviant patients, don't specialize in trauma surgery or ENT surgery on head and neck CA patients).

To the med students on this thread: some of the Libertarian types on this thread are overstating their case, but don't be so quick to just interns and residents who are fed up with patients who are taking a "free ride" on society. I agree that ideally in providing medical care we should try to divorce our personal feelings about patients from our treatment decisions and work hard for every patient, but when you are house staff you will see first hand some of the stuff these folks are talking about. How will you feel when a clinic patient you have never met before greets you by cussing and yelling at you and accusing you of being a lousy doctor, despite never having met you before? How will you feel when a patient's wife repeatedly threatens to sue you and your hospital for being "incompetent" despite the fact her husband was saved from certain death on repeated occasions by teams of docs, nurses and others who acted quickly and skillfull to save his life, and the hospital has spent millions (and I do mean MILLIONS) keeping him breathing in the ICU for months? Don't be too quick to judge before walking in the interns' moccasins.
 
The bad-actor patients are by far outnumbered by the normal folks, though. It's just that the baddies tend to stick in our minds. Why is that? I guess we'd have to ask our psych colleagues the reason.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The bad-actor patients are by far outnumbered by the normal folks, though. It's just that the baddies tend to stick in our minds. Why is that? I guess we'd have to ask our psych colleagues the reason.

Are you familiar with the Pareto principle?

-copro
 
Providing health care for the "unfit" is unfortantly a byproduct of our own inability to deliver it specifically to those who deserve it. Can you tell exactly who deserves or doesn't deserve healthcare accurately 100% of the time? If so, how quickly can you figure it out? How do we judge who gets heathcare and who doesn't? Who judges? No one can really answer these questions w/any sort of answers that can be used in the real world. Unfortunatly, since we don't have the luxury of perfect knowlege, in order to ensure that we provide healthcare to everyone that deserves it we must also provide it to those who don't.

B.S.
That logic states that you drop an atom bomb on a city to take out one purse-snatcher. Sure millions may die, but at least you took out the bastard.
 
Let me give you an example of how the 125% write-off would work...

You have a minimun wage worker ($7.25/hr), working 40 hours/week, who has a severe kidney condition. There annual salary would be $14,500. The actuary at various insurance companies figures that their annual health insurance cost, to cover that illness, will be about $56,000. They know that their estimate is pretty accurate based upon what other patients with similar conditions bill annually, and they have a "herd" approach so they can defray some of that cost to other policy holders. So, after getting multiple quotes, the "low bidder" decides to sell that patient an individual policy at $1,600/month. 😱

"Now, wait a minute? How the hell is this person going to pay $1,600/month when they are only bringing in $1,208/month. This won't work, copro."

We have enough computer power, trust me, to do appropriate accounting. And, we require the patient to go with the lowest bidder in order to get the tax write-off (if they want to be subsidized). The patient/person would be able to file with the government what their actual cost out-of-pocket would be to pay their insurance premium. They would get an estimate of their annual healthcare cost, and the government would reimburse that patient for each payment at $2000.

Do you see what you've just done? You've created a system that, provided the person is contributing to society and filing a tax return, is actually getting a bonus from the government each year and increasing their annual in-pocket amount of money by 25%. This doesn't punish the individual who is sick. In some small way, it might even be considered as rewarding them. But, they are covered and the plan is administered by a private company who will do a better job of insuring that the patient's needs are met better than any government agency can.

Also, by requiring bidding for lowest premium, you've created a competitive system for the individual and the insurance company to provide the lowest cost to cover the services. It also requires hospitals, who can see the published data on what other healthcare organizations are charging for those service, to be competitive to keep their costs down.

People can still pay extra money, or negotiate directly with the insurance company, by opting out of the 125% tax write-off rule (and the details of that can be worked out by, say, letting people write-off only 80% if they don't want to choose the lowest bidder) if they want more premium care or a greater ability to choose.

Either way, you have more people covered and youv'e created a carrot/stick approach that incentivizes people to get coverage. You've also made an end-road into the poverty cycle of illness.

Discuss. 🙂

-copro


I second that vote for president! Very interesting policy. I don't like politics b/c common sense things like this never get accomplished amongst all of the dumb bickering between parties about stupid issues.. ahhh, oh well. 👍
 
I say screw the people with expensive medical problems....they die off...and our gene pool gets deeper.


Or...we can go ahead and treat those people with "kidney" diseases...keep them alive so that they can breed and turn our gene pool into a dirty puddle.
 
I say screw the people with expensive medical problems....they die off...and our gene pool gets deeper.


Or...we can go ahead and treat those people with "kidney" diseases...keep them alive so that they can breed and turn our gene pool into a dirty puddle.

😱
 
I say screw the people with expensive medical problems....they die off...and our gene pool gets deeper.


Or...we can go ahead and treat those people with "kidney" diseases...keep them alive so that they can breed and turn our gene pool into a dirty puddle.

I've been saying this for a long time.
 
I say screw the people with expensive medical problems....they die off...and our gene pool gets deeper.


Or...we can go ahead and treat those people with "kidney" diseases...keep them alive so that they can breed and turn our gene pool into a dirty puddle.

dudes, i am with you in spirit but lets remember what a slippery slope eugenics was in the not-too distant past.
i think the main problem with our society is the too many of the consequences of peoples actions have been removed.... there are quite a few safety nets for people who continue to make bad choices...
 
dudes, i am with you in spirit but lets remember what a slippery slope eugenics was in the not-too distant past.
i think the main problem with our society is the too many of the consequences of peoples actions have been removed.... there are quite a few safety nets for people who continue to make bad choices...

The problem with this society is not too many safety nets, it is the lack of education and the wide spread ignorance.
Scandinavian countries and many European countries offer their citizens way more "safety nets" than the average American would ever dream of, but they don't have the wide spread abuse and complete lack of regard for others we have, why do you think that is the case?
 
A major reason why half of u are saying the dumb s hit thats coming out of your mouths is because you have the luxury to.

and thats good. good for phuking you. no really. its good.

people love to rant. they love to feel angry. its very self-empowering isnt it? you know what the problem is, and anyone else who disagrees doesnt know what the phuk they're talking about. right? a bit overly self-righteous.

the person who mentioned the problem with determining who gets healthcare vs who doesnt and who deserves it versus who doesnt is one of the few ppl that makes sense.

its that information gap thats the problem. everyones right to some degree. scumbags dont deserve healthcare. when you're wearing 120 dollar nikes with a throwback jersey and ur selling crack to "get by" phuck you. but some people actually work hard and still dont get shiit. if we could discern btw the two, we'd be good to go. since we can't, what do we do? Err on the side of caution muhfukas
 
A major reason why half of u are saying the dumb s hit thats coming out of your mouths is because you have the luxury to.

and thats good. good for phuking you. no really. its good.

people love to rant. they love to feel angry. its very self-empowering isnt it? you know what the problem is, and anyone else who disagrees doesnt know what the phuk they're talking about. right? a bit overly self-righteous.

the person who mentioned the problem with determining who gets healthcare vs who doesnt and who deserves it versus who doesnt is one of the few ppl that makes sense.

its that information gap thats the problem. everyones right to some degree. scumbags dont deserve healthcare. when you're wearing 120 dollar nikes with a throwback jersey and ur selling crack to "get by" phuck you. but some people actually work hard and still dont get shiit. if we could discern btw the two, we'd be good to go. since we can't, what do we do? Err on the side of caution muhfukas

My IQ just went down 20 points reading this post...

And, please show me where I - or anyone else for that matter - ever stated the sentiment contained in the bolded portion of your post. Perhaps you think everything should be free in society? If that's the case, I've got the perfect place for you to move to: North Korea.

I think you have a serious reading comprehension problem. And, apparently you felt the need to create a new account and log in as a different user because you didn't want to be identified as the person you normally post as. How brave of you. 🙄

-copro
 
no need to cry there buddy. no need to cry. grab a tissue.

this is the only account i have. i think that mighta been my first post ever. i usually sit back and observe the stupidity but this time i decided to join it. so in terms of creating a new account just for this...nope. you're wrong. i love saying that. you're wrong. cuz u sound like one of those guys that hates hearing that. u know. the crazy i think im cool type.

in regards to your comments, have u been reading the same posts that i have? im guessing you just read and respond to whats convenient for your own argument and disregard all else. get ur game up
 
no need to cry there buddy. no need to cry. grab a tissue.

this is the only account i have. i think that mighta been my first post ever. i usually sit back and observe the stupidity but this time i decided to join it. so in terms of creating a new account just for this...nope. you're wrong. i love saying that. you're wrong. cuz u sound like one of those guys that hates hearing that. u know. the crazy i think im cool type.

in regards to your comments, have u been reading the same posts that i have? im guessing you just read and respond to whats convenient for your own argument and disregard all else. get ur game up

How about this: I think you are a liar.

And, I'll make another prognostication: it won't be long before you are banned.

Have a nice day.

-copro
 
And, while you're at it, why don't you respond to this challenge (that you apparently ignored)...

scumbags dont deserve healthcare.
And, please show me where I - or anyone else for that matter - ever stated the sentiment contained in the bolded portion of your post.

You know what I'm going to do tonight? I'm going to place an order for a pizza at Pizza Hut. Then, I'm going to go down there to pick it up, but when I arrive I'm going to tell them I'm not going to pay for it. I'm hungry. I deserve to get fed without any plans to pay for the food. I'm going to do that every night for two weeks straight. Better yet, I'm going to do the same thing at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. I'm going to have a big, fat steak dinner with a ton of sides.

How far do you think I'll get? :laugh:

-copro
 
No more the days of when we as physicians can be judge, jury, and executioner.

Someone said that we need to treat everyone because who are we to judge. Well, I feel that after all the experiences in medicine, I can judge a person and their worthiness to live. I don't need some laws to figure out who is a POS versus not. Yet, somehow we should be bound to some twisted oath about protecting the worthless, but then don't follow the part of the oath that states we shouldn't spread medical knowledge outside of the profession, which means you don't explain to patients anything and just do it because we ARE their superiors.

Has anybody figured out that the Hippocratic oath is just pure garbage now and it just gets modified to suit the times? WTF.

People know who is lousy and who really just are unfortunate. I don't think anyone knocks a poor mother who happened to develop bad kidney disease at age of 35 and shows concern over her health and how this may affect her children versus the female who has been doing coke and other crap and now is sick. We can figure it out pretty quick. We know within days who is worth keeping in the hospital and who deserves to be thrown back on the streets and blacklisted from medicine. People fall into the gray area. Fine. But we know who definitely don't so why are we still taking care of them?

It's not about race. It's not about economic status. There are Fkers everywhere and we know who they are and what they deserve. People are not entitled to anything that they cannot appreciate. And even someone without a high school education understands that. Once again, it's not race, education, etc.

What does it matter........
 
And, while you're at it, why don't you respond to this challenge (that you apparently ignored)...



You know what I'm going to do tonight? I'm going to place an order for a pizza at Pizza Hut. Then, I'm going to go down there to pick it up, but when I arrive I'm going to tell them I'm not going to pay for it. I'm hungry. I deserve to get fed without any plans to pay for the food. I'm going to do that every night for two weeks straight. Better yet, I'm going to do the same thing at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. I'm going to have a big, fat steak dinner with a ton of sides.

How far do you think I'll get? :laugh:

-copro

you know, at first when i was in med school, i thought that everyone was entitled to health care, at least at the basic level, and that it should be covered by the government. But honestly, you're right, Food isn't free, and neither is shelter (well homeless shelters I guess, but thats a different story). The general idea i suppose is to contribute to society, and in return you will be able to pay for food, health insurance, shelter, etc etc.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
How far do you think I'll get? :laugh:

-copro

The only problem with your analogy is your scumbag patient won't get away with the free pizza either.

He gets away with it at the hospital because it's healthcare. It's more akin to police protection. The question becomes, should police protection not exist for those who do not pay taxes (or enough taxes)? As is the system now, poorer communities tend to get inferior police protection, but protection nonetheless.

To take it another level, why should the military risk their lives for people who don't help pay for the defense budget? Ultimately, all of these acts aim to preserve the society we live in, and dealing with these inefficiencies is considered part of the cost.
 
Last edited:
Well, I feel that after all the experiences in medicine, I can judge a person and their worthiness to live. I don't need some laws to figure out who is a POS versus not.

We have all had negative experiences in healthcare and god knows I have seen my share of scumbags. You are being very harsh though. I know that I will be chastised for being a bleeding heart liberal here but your statement above is very disturbing.
 
It's more akin to police protection. The question becomes, should police protection not exist for those who do not pay taxes (or enough taxes)? As is the system now, poorer communities tend to get inferior police protection, but protection nonetheless.

To take it another level, why should the military risk their lives for people who don't help pay for the defense budget? Ultimately, all of these acts aim to preserve the society we live in, and dealing with these inefficiencies is considered part of the cost.

Your analogy is a bit flawed.

Yours speaks to the "common good" that benefits all of society. Police protection in the projects is actually over-represented, because that's where most of the crime is generated. But, that police protection is not just for the people living in the slums, it's to protect society as a whole. Same for military protection.

What we're talking about is free handouts to the individual that does not serve the common good. Or, to completley shatter your analogy and show you what I'm talking about... why should I fix up a crack-addict and send them back out on the streets just so they can rob someone else and/or commit more crime?

Our actions sometimes actually subvert the common good.

And, again, this is not that they're not entitled to our care... they should just pay for it... somehow.

-copro
 
Your analogy is a bit flawed.

Yours speaks to the "common good" that benefits all of society. Police protection in the projects is actually over-represented, because that's where most of the crime is generated. But, that police protection is not just for the people living in the slums, it's to protect society as a whole. Same for military protection.

What we're talking about is free handouts to the individual that does not serve the common good. Or, to completley shatter your analogy and show you what I'm talking about... why should I fix up a crack-addict and send them back out on the streets just so they can rob someone else and/or commit more crime?

Our actions sometimes actually subvert the common good.

And, again, this is not that they're not entitled to our care... they should just pay for it... somehow.

-copro

I need to address a couple of your points and then will talk more about mine.

Projects in a city make up a portion of the larger city population. It can be considered that the larger population is who is being protected by police presence in the projects, even though the police is spending more of their effort in the projects. The bottom line: Joe MiddleClass lives in a low crime neighborhood, free to live out his life. I'm referring to poor cities versus rich cities. East Palo Alto (former murder capital of the US) hardly has the tax base for running a police force sufficient to keep crime low in their poor city. Neighboring cities actually contribute their police forces to keep crime low in EPA since they can't handle it on their own. This is to preserve the low crime environments for neighboring "rich" communities like Menlo Park, Palo Alto and the Stanford campus.

From a public policy perspective, I believe healthcare is held to similar standards. To assure minimum conditions for the low income community (i.e. keeping sufficient low income population happy so they'll actually work the jobs in your community that you don't want to do, and keep crime low) healthcare has to be made "available" and "accessible". So while you are correct that there are examples of bad apples that disrupt the system, present policies are based on the concept that this cost is worth dealing with since many more are supposedly helped. (and it's the police's role to get the addicts anyway).

I believe it's based on the adage that the masses need to be appeased for society to remain "stable". Therefore, the people who are well-off in society have a vested interest in preserving the status-quo stability, should be willing to "pay" for said stability. They benefit via the act of "doing good" as well as preserving this society for their children.

That being said, there really should be ways to filter out those bad apples. I believe certain countries (with socialized medicine no less) have policies in place to handle abusers.