Believe the hype?

[yoshka]

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I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

 

[relentless11]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

Nah its just overly hyped based on what i've been told by our director of admissions, and by fellow SDN'ers in the same situation. For the most part, you may hear advisors discourage undergrads (usually with less than stellar GPA's) to NOT do grad school. This because grad courses will not count on their undergrad GPA. Based on your GPAs, I don't think the undergrad GPA is much of an issue.

From the horses mouth, UCLA tends to encourage students with grad degrees to apply. Their website specifically encourages reapplicants to go to grad school so they can improve their application, while those holding grad degrees may be able to waive some med school courses on a case-by-case basis. At UCSF, the age range is 21-38. If this year's class is anything like previous years, there are PhD's in that class too. One may not see too many PhD's getting in, but thats not because its harder to get in when you already have a PhD, but its because not many people are motivated (or crazy) enough to sign up for another 4 years of doctorate level excitement 😉 .

For me, I am a 1st year PhD student, and will try to 1) "transfer" into our MSTP, or 2) apply just before finishing my thesis. I have been told by many that the transfer thing is pretty difficult from the CA perspective, but it is not impossible. While the second option, I just have to have proof (letter from the chair) that I will have my PhD before starting med school. Since my undergrad GPA was not stellar, I am taking upper division undergrad courses as "electives". Our director of admissions specifically told me that they should add into my post-bacc GPA, which is good. Hopefully, with a post-bacc of about 3.4, and a grad GPA of 4.0 consisting of our med school courses, my own school will take me in . We'll see though. I've stopped worrying about the future, and more concerned about the upcoming qualifying exam 😉

If you have any questions, I'm sure there are a few other SDN'ers who have PhD's and are applying right now...so hoping they have some success stories for us to hear. There is also a thread somewhere with lists of names of SDNers who are willing to answer any other questions you might have. Hope that helps.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
It is not generally a good idea to do a Ph.D for undergraduate GPA "damage control". Your graduate grades are not going to be weighted as heavily as your undergraduate grades in terms of admission to medical school. That is not to say that you cannot get in, that is to say that if your undergraduate grades are very, very poor, a Ph.D is not going to be that helpful.

I had a 3.8 undergraduate GPA (was never actually pre-med) and a 4.0 graduate GPA. I was able to get all six of the schools that I applied to and ended up attending medical school on a full-ride tuition scholarship. If I had been pre-med instead of pre-graduate school (I ended up teaching for five years), I was probably a fairly competitive medical school applicant with my undergraduate grades alone. In the end, I do not think that my Ph.D (had not been awarded at the time of my medical school matriculation), was much of a factor in my admissions.

njbmd 🙂

 

[relentless11]

Hi there,
It is not generally a good idea to do a Ph.D for undergraduate GPA "damage control". Your graduate grades are not going to be weighted as heavily as your undergraduate grades in terms of admission to medical school. That is not to say that you cannot get in, that is to say that if your undergraduate grades are very, very poor, a Ph.D is not going to be that helpful.
njbmd 🙂

Yes I have to second that. I remember approaching our director of admissions about this "damage control" concept. He said it was not a good idea, but when I told him that my program allowed me to take undergrad courses, he said that was perfectly fine. Phew! Haha. But yea, I think I just lucked out in that respect.

Glad to hear that your PhD component played a big role though. Can't wait to apply....in 2008

 

[Law2Doc]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

I wouldn't buy into the hype, but also wouldn't presume a high MCAT grade until you take it. Lots of very smart people struggle with that test more than you would think.

 

[pseudoknot]

I'm finishing up a PhD and applying to med school. My GPA wasn't great, but my MCAT was good; I do think the PhD helped me get interviews (I had 10 interviews, out of 29 completed secondaries). However, so far that has only translated to waitlists.

I've never heard of a PhD as being anything other than a positive attribute for med school, but as njbmd notes it may not be a significant factor. I'm sure that depends on the school. I do think it's very important, as with any career switcher, to be able to show that you're strongly motivated to go into medicine and have sound reasons for doing so.

 

[humuhumu]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

Rock the MCAT, get some solid clinical and volunteering experiences, interview well, and you'll be a shoo-in.

 

[yoshka]

How exactly do you presume I did graduate work for undergrad damage control. I said that I want to do research and stay in academic medicine. I did the PhD because I wanted and valued the training that I received. I could not have gotten such in depth training as a medical student. Really good MD scientists are a rarity these days. I have seen people doing "damage control" through a PhD... and those people can be spotted a mile away because they don't reallly care about the science and they are just biding their time to get into medical school. On the other hand, people who do science because they love it stand out too... you can't do a stellar PhD by just floating by and bolstering your med school app.

Hi there,
It is not generally a good idea to do a Ph.D for undergraduate GPA "damage control". Your graduate grades are not going to be weighted as heavily as your undergraduate grades in terms of admission to medical school. That is not to say that you cannot get in, that is to say that if your undergraduate grades are very, very poor, a Ph.D is not going to be that helpful.

I had a 3.8 undergraduate GPA (was never actually pre-med) and a 4.0 graduate GPA. I was able to get all six of the schools that I applied to and ended up attending medical school on a full-ride tuition scholarship. If I had been pre-med instead of pre-graduate school (I ended up teaching for five years), I was probably a fairly competitive medical school applicant with my undergraduate grades alone. In the end, I do not think that my Ph.D (had not been awarded at the time of my medical school matriculation), was much of a factor in my admissions.

njbmd 🙂

 

[yoshka]

How exactly do you presume I did graduate work for undergrad damage control. I said that I want to do research and stay in academic medicine. I did the PhD because I wanted and valued the training that I received. I could not have gotten such in depth training as a medical student. Really good MD scientists are a rarity these days. I have seen people doing "damage control" through a PhD... and those people can be spotted a mile away because they don't reallly care about the science and they are just biding their time to get into medical school. On the other hand, people who do science because they love it stand out too... you can't do a stellar PhD by just floating by and bolstering your med school app.

Hi there,
It is not generally a good idea to do a Ph.D for undergraduate GPA "damage control". Your graduate grades are not going to be weighted as heavily as your undergraduate grades in terms of admission to medical school. That is not to say that you cannot get in, that is to say that if your undergraduate grades are very, very poor, a Ph.D is not going to be that helpful.

I had a 3.8 undergraduate GPA (was never actually pre-med) and a 4.0 graduate GPA. I was able to get all six of the schools that I applied to and ended up attending medical school on a full-ride tuition scholarship. If I had been pre-med instead of pre-graduate school (I ended up teaching for five years), I was probably a fairly competitive medical school applicant with my undergraduate grades alone. In the end, I do not think that my Ph.D (had not been awarded at the time of my medical school matriculation), was much of a factor in my admissions.

njbmd 🙂

 

[cfdavid]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

Just say it like you just did. It's totally complimentary given that you want to do research. "Spin" it like the asset that it is for you.

Also, don't worry about the undergrad gpa so much given that you've established a recent grad school track record. Your stats look really good. Go for it.

 

[MeowMix]

Really, there are so few people who go to med school post-PhD that the stats aren't very reliable, so I wouldn't believe the hype.

However, there are at least a half-dozen of us here on SDN with PhDs in various fields (before med school) who are now in med school or are doctors. It is certainly not a golden ticket in the front door, as njbmd notes. Instead, your application will be scrutinized the same way as everyone else's: GPA, MCAT, clinical experience, etc.. You will be expected to have a particularly clear justification of why you want to get yet another degree and spend even more years in school. Your undergrad GPA is generally looked at more carefully than your grad GPA, since most people get a pretty high grad GPA and it is not factored into your overall application GPA. You will absolutely need to nail the MCAT; if you're like the average human being, it will take some work to get 30+.

Doing a PhD in a medically related field is very helpful, since people who read your app are more likely to understand what you did (as opposed to a geology thesis where it will be meaningless to them).

good luck

 

[Maurizio]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

From what I have heard a PhD can be a big advantage at some schools. Schools that are research driven (which are most of the top schools) would definitly consider your advanced degree a plus, and if you have "a landmark first author paper" then even better. After all, top schools are considered so because of research. At the University of Toronto they even have a seperate application/process for people with graduate degrees. Your GPA(s) are good to stellar and assuming you do well on the MCATs you should have no problem. One piece of advice, don't presume you'll get over 30 on the MCAT, that type of arrognace (or at least the apperance of arrogance) tends to rub people the wrong way.

 

[yoshka]

I am not presuming that I will get over a 30 on the MCAT just because I think I am so smart and am arrogant. I think I will because I have been studying consisently, audited physics and o-chem classes for the past year to refresh my memory and consistently score 35+ on practice tests.

From what I have heard a PhD can be a big advantage at some schools. Schools that are research driven (which are most of the top schools) would definitly consider your advanced degree a plus, and if you have "a landmark first author paper" then even better. After all, top schools are considered so because of research. At the University of Toronto they even have a seperate application/process for people with graduate degrees. Your GPA(s) are good to stellar and assuming you do well on the MCATs you should have no problem. One piece of advice, don't presume you'll get over 30 on the MCAT, that type of arrognace (or at least the apperance of arrogance) tends to rub people the wrong way.

 

[Maurizio]

I am not presuming that I will get over a 30 on the MCAT just because I think I am so smart and am arrogant. I think I will because I have been studying consisently, audited physics and o-chem classes for the past year to refresh my memory and consistently score 35+ on practice tests.

Don't get so defensive . I'm not saying your arrogant, but that was an arrogant comment to post. What I'm saying is that these threads are filled with smart people who study HARD for the MCAT, and still struggle to get 30+. Maybe you will get over 30, I hope you do, but when you post comments like that it comes across as arrogant and rubs people the wrong way. Didn't mean to offend you, just a piece of advice, we're all just trying to help eachother out here.

 

[QofQuimica]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

I am graduating with my PhD this May, and I've been accepted to multiple schools with a few full scholarships. There isn't too much more I can add to what some of the above posters have said, but I can emphasize again how important it is for you to have a "total package." In other words, you are not exempt from having good grades, MCAT score, ECs, LORs, etc. just because you have a PhD. On the other hand, if you DO have those things, I think having your PhD on top of all of that CAN be an asset. Your undergrad GPA is probably not going to be a big source of grief, especially if you do well on the MCAT, but if you're concerned, you can call a few admissions offices and ask them for some advice. I visited three schools and met with their admissions directors before applying, and received invaluable advice. Best of to you.

 

[medworm]

yoshka, UCSD loves applicants with PhDs and research experience.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I have heard a lot of hype that it is harder to get into med school after completing a PhD. I finished a PhD in neuroscience/genetics at a top 5 school on the East Coast in 4 and a half years. I want to go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and have a research program studying the molecular genetics of psychiatric disorders. I really want to do both... stay in academic medicine doing clinical and running a research program. My udergrad grades are not that great overall (3.4), but i have a 3.85 science GPA and a 3.9 GPA in grad school. In addition, I published a landmark first author paper in Nature two years ago. I have one additional first author papers and 8 co-authored papers during grad school. I haven't yet taken the MCATs, but presume I can get above the 30 cut off without too much of a problem. So... believe the hype or will I have a shot at getting in?

Based on your GPA and, more importantly, your publication record, a >27 MCAT will get you interviews if you have excellent extracurricular, volunteer, and health-related exposure, as well as a compelling AMCAS essay. Your major hurdle will be convincing the adcom that you are not 'jumping ship' and that this is a logical extension of your research training. Don't be surprised if your application is treated more seriously by bigger, more research-focused schools and slightly underappreciated by state schools that don't do much research. It's not personal; it just reflects what their main mission is - to create clinicians that the state will benefit from or to create clinician scientists. This was my experience and seemed to be a commonality among friends who were also PhD-to-MD applicants. At some schools (like the University of Toronto--arguably the best medical school in Canada--) have a separate admissions panel for folks with graduate degrees and they actually want them to send publications and a CV directly to them. MY MCAT was below the U of T average, yet I still secured an interview (which I declined because I got into my first-choice school). Why? They treat research, very, very seriously and realize that sustained effort and drive (good attributes for a clinician) might offset one blemish on your application, like a sub-par MCAT or GPA.

I agree with your point that people who do science because they love it will stand out in the medical school admissions process and, personally, I think your Ph.D. is a massive advantage. Both people whom I know that started the Ph.D. en route to medical school (damage control - by their own admission) hated the classes and hated the research. They ultimately dropped out and ended up in allied health careers. Good luck!

 

[relentless11]

yoshka, UCSD loves applicants with PhDs and research experience.

Thats cool, where did you hear that? (I haven't heard but would be great if it is true). I know UCSF and UCLA look kindly on PhD's too. UCD is kinda an oddball, even though I go here...haha. But I do know UCD likes non-trads.

 

[njbmd]

How exactly do you presume I did graduate work for undergrad damage control. I said that I want to do research and stay in academic medicine. I did the PhD because I wanted and valued the training that I received. I could not have gotten such in depth training as a medical student. Really good MD scientists are a rarity these days. I have seen people doing "damage control" through a PhD... and those people can be spotted a mile away because they don't reallly care about the science and they are just biding their time to get into medical school. On the other hand, people who do science because they love it stand out too... you can't do a stellar PhD by just floating by and bolstering your med school app.

Hi there,
Many people DO head into graduate school to bolster an undergraduate GPA that is below the standard for most medical school matriculates. (I do not recall saying that this applied to you. I DO recall answering your question.) Getting a masters (or Ph.D) used to be a common way buffing a less than 3.5 GPA for many medical school applicants who did not make it into medical school. Most graduate programs only require a 3.0 for departmental funding and many people are not funded at all i.e. are paying for graduate school out of their pockets or borrowing. To this end, it is somewhat more difficult for a person with a Ph.D to get into medical school.

In graduate school, you are expected to maintain a higher GPA than undergraduate school. After all, you are concentrating your learning in a field that one would hope you had some interest and one would only hope that you would do better. Most medical school admissions committees do not and will not give the same weight to your graduate grades as to your undergraduate grades. To that end, your undergraduate work, even with 4.0 graduate GPA is going to be weighted more than your graduate work.

Very few people are going to get high undergraduate or graduate grades by just "floating by". Newsflash: "Floating by" isn't going to even come close in medical school either.

Happy studying and bravo for being a great scientist!
njbmd 🙂

 

[Spooner]

Shouldn't you have to have a good GPA to proceed to a graduate program?

To be accepted to M.S. program, a student needs to have at least 3.5/4.0 GPA in undergraduate. To be accepted to Ph.D. program, a student needs to have at least 3.7/4.0 GPA in a related Master program. To be accepted to Ph.D program straight from an undegraduated (fast track), a student needs to have at least 3.8 GPA with minimum 1400 GRE (not count the verbal section).

Therefore, a Ph.D is a proof that you can handle the Med school program. Also, I don't know about other program, but in engineering it takes really hard works and extensive thinking to publish one paper in a peer reivew conference/journal. Publishing few papers is a requirement. It's a training mark that you must reach or master before you are awared the degree.

So, the only question for a Ph.D guy is not about grade nor ability. It's all about purpose. Why Medicine, why Now.

 

[tigress]

Shouldn't you have to have a good GPA to proceed to a graduate program?

To be accepted to M.S. program, a student needs to have at least 3.5/4.0 GPA in undergraduate. To be accepted to Ph.D. program, a student needs to have at least 3.7/4.0 GPA in a related Master program. To be accepted to Ph.D program straight from an undegraduated (fast track), a student needs to have at least 3.8 GPA with minimum 1400 GRE (not count the verbal section).

Therefore, a Ph.D is a proof that you can handle the Med school program. Also, I don't know about other program, but in engineering it takes really hard works and extensive thinking to publish one paper in a peer reivew conference/journal. Publishing few papers is a requirement. It's a training mark that you must reach or master before you are awared the degree.

So, the only question for a Ph.D guy is not about grade nor ability. It's all about purpose. Why Medicine, why Now.

Um, I don't know where you're getting those numbers from. I was in a PhD program at a top school and I didn't have a 3.8 undergrad GPA. Actually, at least half of my classmates in the program did not have a 3.8 undergrad GPA, and I know at least one of them had more like a 3.2. Also, while my GRE score was very good, most of the people in my program did not score as high as what you say is necessary. Most of the top biomedical programs only accept directly into the PhD program, and don't even offer Masters except as terminal defaults if you can't get through the PhD.

So maybe your numbers are for engineering, but definitely not biological sciences. It's easier to get into a PhD program at a top school than it is to get into most of the MD schools in this country, and I'm saying that from experience. There are plenty of smart people in PhD programs, don't get me wrong, but I know that many of my former classmates wouldn't be good candidates for med school.

I don't have much to add in response to the OP. I dropped out of my grad program to apply to med school and I've been successful, even though people told me it would seriously hurt me. I think my undergrad GPA hurt me more, actually, though leaving the PhD program probably lost me an interview or two. I'm extremely happy with my decision. I think in the end you can't listen to any of the hype about what having a PhD, or even dropping out of a program, will do to your application. Good luck

 

[QofQuimica]

I was accepted into my graduate program with no undergrad GPA at all....the GPA and GRE requirements are definitely much lower than what Spooner said in my experience too. As tigress pointed out, getting INTO grad school isn't very hard. They'll give just about anyone a chance if you're motivated enough to fill out the application and you have a pulse. It's getting OUT (with a PhD) that is the hard part. 😉

 

[tigress]

lol, yeah...actually having the PhD proves you have serious dedication and stamina

 

[relentless11]

It's getting OUT (with a PhD) that is the hard part. 😉

I have to second that...lol. I got into my PhD program a University of California, with a crappy GPA. Like i said in previous threads, I had a undergrad GPA of <3.0. I doubt anyone would dispute how competitive it is to get in at any UC. But all things considered, the reason why I got in was due to my post-bacc GPA (3.4), my 36 on the MCAT (substituted by special exception for the GRE), and a professor willing to sponsor me in. In the end, I was very LUCKY.

Getting in was indeed easier than med school, but the classes aren't much easier, and the workload just as challenging if you find the right program (or wrong one..lol), and PI. I have found PhD students to be just as intelligent and hardworking as med students, since we take classes with the med students. The defining difference between some PhD and MD students would be their desire to be in a hospital or laboratory all their lives. I'm the only PhD student for my entering class to be doing clinical research, everyone else is doing bench research. The vast majority of the students in the program are heading off to post-doc, while a few are planning to do some professional school (MD or DVM).

The hard part as QinQuimica stated is getting out. There's this wonderful event after you finish your classes....the qualifying exam. I think our program requires it to be AT LEAST 3 hours long, and have 5 professors bombarding you with questions to test your fundamental knowledge of the subject (plus asking about your research). You fail, then you can take it only one more time. You fail again, then they give you a masters and thank you for giving them all that $$. If you pass then if everything goes well, you submit a thesis, the profs on your thesis committee approve then its smooth sailing from there. But I think inventing something new is waayy harder than applying something that has already been invented.

All the MD/PhD's out there seem to agree that their hardest moments in school was during their PhD phase. So that should tell adcoms something 😉

On a side note....QinQuimica, did you ever think that the qualifying exam was good preparation for a med school interview? Hahaha. Well they prolly ask more personal questions though so I guess not 😉

 

[QofQuimica]

On a side note....QinQuimica, did you ever think that the qualifying exam was good preparation for a med school interview? Hahaha. Well they prolly ask more personal questions though so I guess not 😉

No....not only are interviews more personal, they are much less technical. The good thing for me as a pharmaceutical chemist is that the closest research area PhDs they could get to interview me were biochemists. So the interviewers couldn't grill me on why I used reagent A instead of reagent B, or why didn't I try the XYZ reaction, or ask me have I read the new paper in this area by Dr. Jones, or what do I think are the implications of Smith's work in this field. 😀 Actually, I enjoy explaining my research to biochemists. They have enough background in organic to understand what I'm talking about without me having to explain every little thing, but not enough background to (as the med students say) pimp me. I have one biochemist on my committee....too bad all five of them can't be biochemists.

relentless, you said you're in your first year, right? So you haven't had your quals yet....but you've obviously heard plenty about them. 😛 That really *is* the worst part. Almost everyone who gets into candidacy makes it to the end, at least in my dept. I haven't ever heard of anyone flunking their defense; unless your PI is a total jerk, s/he won't let you defend if you aren't going to pass. You'll be told that you "need" one more semester....or two. I'm defending five weeks from now....that doesn't freak me out nearly as much as the fact that I have to turn in the draft to the committee in two weeks.

 

[relentless11]

I have one biochemist on my committee....too bad all five of them can't be biochemists.

Hahaha, yea I'm trying to set up my committee right now. So I know what you mean. The scary part is, for my qual exam, I may have to defend in statistics 😡...i'd take biochem over stats any day..haha.

relentless, you said you're in your first year, right? So you haven't had your quals yet....but you've obviously heard plenty about them. 😛 That really *is* the worst part. Almost everyone who gets into candidacy makes it to the end, at least in my dept. I haven't ever heard of anyone flunking their defense; unless your PI is a total jerk, s/he won't let you defend if you aren't going to pass. You'll be told that you "need" one more semester....or two. I'm defending five weeks from now....that doesn't freak me out nearly as much as the fact that I have to turn in the draft to the committee in two weeks.

Yea, I haven't heard of anyone failing their quals either. At least not within the group of people that I know...haha. My PI is awesome, but he is like soo tough. I think i'm more scared of him testing me during lab meetings than the qualifying exam itself..lol But yea, I'm actually going to put everything together so I can do the exam this fall. I'm kinda excited, but I'm sure when i'm 3 months away, the fear will kick in. Sure makes the MCAT look a WHOLE LOTTA FUN now😉.

Anyway, good luck with that defense in the coming weeks. I know you'll do fine though. Glad to hear you got into some med schools too!! 🙂

 

[Spooner]

The qualifying exam tests the knowledge in breadth of many subjects. Passing it is hard. I consider it harder than having a 30+ MCAT.

You only have 2 chances to pass one of multiple subjects in qualifying exam. Failing one of them would kick you out of the program while you have many chances to do the MCAT and no one kick you out of the application if you have a low score twice.

Indeed, many could come in for a challenge but few could go out with a Ph.D. If you could manage to pass all qualifying exam subjects, chance that you have a highscore in MCAT is very realistic.

 

[QofQuimica]

If you could manage to pass all qualifying exam subjects, chance that you have a highscore in MCAT is very realistic.

I would actually argue that grad students who score high (>30) on the MCAT are the exception that prove your rule. Most grad students do not take the MCAT at all, but of the handful of people at my school who have, no one scored above a 30 except for me. This is not because they aren't very bright people; they definitely are. (They were able to earn PhDs, and I thoroughly agree with you and everyone else who pointed out that earning a PhD requires a great deal of intelligence and hard work.) But there is a totally different body of knowledge needed for each type of test, and grad school does not put the kind of emphasis on standardized testing acumen that the MCAT and medical school do.

My experience is that qualifying exams are MUCH narrower in their scope than the MCAT. As an organic chemist, I was not tested on physics, physiology, or philosophy on my qualifier like I was on the MCAT. I was largely tested on organic name reactions and mechanisms, expected to come up with synthesis procedures to make various compounds, asked to research and write a mock NIH grant proposal, and required to deliver two departmental seminars, one on my own work, another on a topic of my choice not related to my work. It was very hard and took a lot of time, but none of it relates very much to what I had to do to prepare for the MCAT. Preparing for the MCAT is also very hard and takes a lot of time, but it's a whole different class of pain than preparing for a qualifier.

Finally, I believe that many grad students are a victim of their own training when they go to take the MCAT. They run into trouble because they know too much about their area of expertise, and they read too much into MCAT questions that are written for an undergrad level. I had to remind myself when I took the MCAT that I was supposed to have the organic chemistry level of knowledge of a college sophomore, not a grad student. A lot of organic concepts are way over-simplified in sophomore organic, and I'm sure it's the same way for biology and physics. But on the MCAT, you have to go with the sophomore organic answer, not the grad school answer. This is difficult for a lot of grad students to do because they know that the "correct" MCAT answer is not totally accurate. 😛

 

[1Path]

Finally, I believe that many grad students are a victim of their own training when they go to take the MCAT. They run into trouble because they know too much about their area of expertise, and they read too much into MCAT questions that are written for an undergrad level.

Ding, Ding, Ding, I do believe we have THE RIGHT answere here!!! 👍

What I have FINALLY done is exactly what you suggested, take a HUGE step back and look at the questions/answers more "basically". I personally found this extremely difficult to do since it's in my nature to overanalyze EVERYTHING (Which is part of what makes me so darn good at research! 😉 ), but being able to do so seems pretty crucial to doing well in med school and as a practicing physician. Of course, there's that extra arrogance factor of saying to yourself, if I can do X, then surely I can do Y and Z as well.

 

[relentless11]

Man thats gonna be lame..haha. I think I might have to retake my MCAT if my thesis work puts me over the 3-year time frame since last taking the MCAT. Gonna have to dumb myself down..lol. Maybe the computer based MCAT will be like a video game, and I can use my video game skills to do well? 😉

 

[QofQuimica]

Maybe the computer based MCAT will be like a video game, and I can use my video game skills to do well? 😉

If you're right, probably the Gen Y test-takers are going to have the best MCAT scores in history once the MCAT goes computerized. 😉

 

[Maurizio]

I was accepted into my graduate program with no undergrad GPA at all....the GPA and GRE requirements are definitely much lower than what Spooner said in my experience too. As tigress pointed out, getting INTO grad school isn't very hard. They'll give just about anyone a chance if you're motivated enough to fill out the application and you have a pulse. It's getting OUT (with a PhD) that is the hard part. 😉

I'm working on my PhD in Engineering at the University of Toronto and I can say that it doesn't seem as easy to get into the program here. I got into the masters program with a 3.52 GPA, and I was a longshot for that. I think the only reason I got in was that I had some research experience as an undergrad, for which I got a small institutional award. To get into the PhD program I had to finish a masters, there was no way to fast track into the program unless you have an exceptionally high undergrad GPA. To graduate there is no official requirment on the number of publications needed, however, realistically your committe will probably not let you graduate without a minimum of three first author publications. I'm not sure if these requirments are common among all graduate programs, or just to engineering programs, but that's the way it's like here. Hopefully this experience will make me a good candidate for an MD program.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm working on my PhD in Engineering at the University of Toronto and I can say that it doesn't seem as easy to get into the program here. I got into the masters program with a 3.52 GPA, and I was a longshot for that. I think the only reason I got in was that I had some research experience as an undergrad, for which I got a small institutional award. To get into the PhD program I had to finish a masters, there was no way to fast track into the program unless you have an exceptionally high undergrad GPA. To graduate there is no official requirment on the number of publications needed, however, realistically your committe will probably not let you graduate without a minimum of three first author publications. I'm not sure if these requirments are common among all graduate programs, or just to engineering programs, but that's the way it's like here. Hopefully this experience will make me a good candidate for an MD program.

Could be, or it could be a national or institutional difference too. I never applied to any Canadian schools, so I don't know whether I could have been admitted to one or not.

 

[tigress]

I think there's a huge difference between engineering/physics/etc. PhD programs and biomedical PhD programs. Even a difference between chemistry and bio. Like many bio PhD programs I know don't have written qualifying exams, but rather a sort of proto-defense that lasts hours and includes grilling by professors, whereas I think most chem and engineering programs have written exams. Anyway, in terms of acceptance, it seems like the stats are lower for the biomedical programs. I'm not sure why.

Of course, like Q said, it could also be a national difference.

(Oh, and lots of biomedical programs also have requirements like multiple first-author publications and such. But I think they have fewer actual course requirements, also.)

 

[Maurizio]

I think there's a huge difference between engineering/physics/etc. PhD programs and biomedical PhD programs. Even a difference between chemistry and bio. Like many bio PhD programs I know don't have written qualifying exams, but rather a sort of proto-defense that lasts hours and includes grilling by professors, whereas I think most chem and engineering programs have written exams. Anyway, in terms of acceptance, it seems like the stats are lower for the biomedical programs. I'm not sure why.

Of course, like Q said, it could also be a national difference.

(Oh, and lots of biomedical programs also have requirements like multiple first-author publications and such. But I think they have fewer actual course requirements, also.)

Actually, our qualifying exam is not a written exam. It used to be, but it was changed a few years ago. Our qualifying exam consists of a "proto-defense" that you described. Sometimes these can be gruelling, but sometimes they can be surprisingly easy, it depends who you have on your committe. We also have a similiar exam after second year (I'm not sure why).