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Rcorn~Looks like I'll be interviewing on the 8th as well. You mentioned your brother also went to MSIH if you don't mind me asking, how did applying to residencies work out for him?
Rcorn~Looks like I'll be interviewing on the 8th as well. You mentioned your brother also went to MSIH if you don't mind me asking, how did applying to residencies work out for him?
Oh cool. What time will you be interviewing at? Best of luck to you. My brother had trouble in the beginning. He did a prelim year at U. of Michigan in general surgery. He then transferred and continued his surgical residency at the Cleveland Clinic, which is one of the top hospitals in the US. So even though he came out of a foreign medical school, he is doing very well at this point.
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That's encouraging to hear that things worked out for him. I had to reschedule my interview for April 4th so I guess I won't be seeing you. Perhaps in Beer Sheva =]. Good luck to you as well
Thanks! I agree; my experience with Alice has always been very positive and she's very quick to respond to any of my inquiries.
I was taking a look at the updated list of matches here...http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/bgcu-md/cs/documents/MSIHResidencyPlacements2011-2002.pdf
Do you feel that BGU MSIH has been majorly affected by sort of the shift of residencies trying to get away from FMGs? I saw a statistic the other day showing how overall IMG matches have gone down from 49% to 39% from 2006 to 2010...I believe it's somewhere on the NRMP website.
I know BGU MSIH has been doing way better than that statistic but is that shift affecting students here? Also I saw that 4 students are doing a Israeli Rotating Internship? Do you know the reason behind that?
Hey robertch8,
All the students that I know who are doing the Israeli internship are students that have made Aliyah and want to practice in Israel.
There were also about 5 or 6 students that were in the 4th year class that took the year off. Some did research, some did MPH's, some worked on international health projects, etc. They will match next year when they enter the match.
I'm not sure how the tightening of residency spots will affect matching in the future. I don't think students have had problems yet though.
All the students that I know who are doing the Israeli internship are students that have made Aliyah and want to practice in Israel.
There were also about 5 or 6 students that were in the 4th year class that took the year off. Some did research, some did MPH's, some worked on international health projects, etc. They will match next year when they enter the match.
I'm not sure how the tightening of residency spots will affect matching in the future. I don't think students have had problems yet though.
I'm really not sure. Of those that matched there, I don't know them too well. I've never heard of any student having a problem in matching into a particular state except for California. I know that matching into California has extra hurdles and several of the 4th years mentioned that it's difficult to match into California. We still had some matches in California though.
thanks for the answer. also, as for the people who matched into the U of Toronto, were those Canadian citizens? Is it possible for US students to match into Canadian residencies?
Those were only Canadian students. To match into Canada, one must be a Canadian citizen or permanent resident. There are quite a few Canadians in each year at MSIH. I've heard that it's quite difficult to get a residency back in Canada as the residency spots are tight. However, MSIH grads have matched really well in Canada.
There is quite a strong Canadian presence at MSIH. Our BGU-MSIH Co-director Dr.Mark Clarfield is Canadian and so is the BGU-CU Co-director Dr.Richard Deckelbaum.
I believe on their website it says that they are still accepting applications. Better get cracking! Their essays are unlike any I've written before.
I sent in my application a few weeks ago and I haven't heard from them besides an acknowledgement that they received my application. Do they typically send rejection e-mails out pre-interview, or do they leave you hanging?
I sent in my application a few weeks ago and I haven't heard from them besides an acknowledgement that they received my application. Do they typically send rejection e-mails out pre-interview, or do they leave you hanging?
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I also submitted my application a couple weeks ago and received a message that MSIH had gotten my application. Let me know if you hear anything!
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Hello, I thought I would share some of my experiences and opinions of our program as I am about to graduate. I think that like all business operations, the truth of our school is not easily accessible and falls pray to a publicity campaign. I wish I would have had a better picture of the school beforehand.
Why would you chose BGU?
Pros:
1) Wealth of travel opportunities. I have been to 20+ countries since I started in 2006.
2) You develop patience and do get to work with patients from many cultures
3) You could learn another language
4) Develop self-reliance
5) Some really excellent educators
6) Some fun outside rotations
7) Some nice staff members
8) Cheap cost of living
9) Students from diverse backgrounds
Cons:
1) You are will be studying in a middle-income nation where:
-the university is not up to American standards. Things like new text books in the library, gyms, computers, and perhaps even research cannot compare to America.
2) Culture of excellence lacking. You aren't going to find innovators or dynamos but rather a culture of getting by and accepting half done jobs. Example, disliked professors are not replaced. Cavaders old. Technologies not utilized.
3) No transparency. Nobody knows where there money goes. You can't see the budget. Your tuition gets increased without notice or student impute.
4) No support for research for students.
5) Beer sheva is a dump.
6) If you don't learn Hebrew you will struggle
7) Not easy to get electives in the states as a foreign graduate
8) You probably wouldn't get your first choice for residency. Very difficult to match into a speciality.
9) International opportunites were cancelled from 2009-today. 2 sites will be open for next year. But that would mean squeezing 25 students into theses places. May or may not work.
In sum, to come here you have to be a flexible person. You have to have a lot of self-initative to learn and understand that Israel is NOT America. If you come thinking that everything will have standards as high as an American University you will be disappointed. Overall, I would give it a B-. There is room for growth. I've gained a lot from being here.
Why would you chose BGU?
Pros:
1) Wealth of travel opportunities. I have been to 20+ countries since I started in 2006.
2) You develop patience and do get to work with patients from many cultures
3) You could learn another language
4) Develop self-reliance
5) Some really excellent educators
6) Some fun outside rotations
7) Some nice staff members
8) Cheap cost of living
9) Students from diverse backgrounds
Cons:
1) You are will be studying in a middle-income nation where:
-the university is not up to American standards. Things like new text books in the library, gyms, computers, and perhaps even research cannot compare to America.
2) Culture of excellence lacking. You aren't going to find innovators or dynamos but rather a culture of getting by and accepting half done jobs. Example, disliked professors are not replaced. Cavaders old. Technologies not utilized.
3) No transparency. Nobody knows where there money goes. You can't see the budget. Your tuition gets increased without notice or student impute.
4) No support for research for students.
5) Beer sheva is a dump.
6) If you don't learn Hebrew you will struggle
7) Not easy to get electives in the states as a foreign graduate
8) You probably wouldn't get your first choice for residency. Very difficult to match into a speciality.
9) International opportunites were cancelled from 2009-today. 2 sites will be open for next year. But that would mean squeezing 25 students into theses places. May or may not work.
In sum, to come here you have to be a flexible person. You have to have a lot of self-initative to learn and understand that Israel is NOT America. If you come thinking that everything will have standards as high as an American University you will be disappointed. Overall, I would give it a B-. There is room for growth. I've gained a lot from being here.
I haven't graduated yet. I'm still an M2. I'd like to just further comment on scottaroner's 'con' comments:
1) The university itself is definitely up to American standards. Just look at some of the famous faculty and publications that come out of BGU. The Faculty of Health Sciences at BGU is well known in Israel as being possibly the best. Hebrew U is also up there. It really depends on who you talk to. BUT, the MSIH program is a bit of a separate entity at the university. So, some of the challenges that MSIH faces are very different from the other programs.
2) Some of the disliked professors do stay for too long and are not replaced quick enough. There are some that are replaced, but this often takes far too long. The cadavers for our class have been great! This may not have been the case for the graduating class now. I'm not sure what the case was for them. For us, our student:cadaver ratio is better than even for the Israeli medical students. The cadavers are in good condition. There was a bad cadaver for one of the groups at the start of the year but we were easily able to get a new one soon. The bad cadaver hadn't been preserved properly and the TA's knew that it was not a proper learning tool. So, the group got a new one!
3) The tuition does go up a bit each year. This is what happens at EVERY medical school. There is no huge increase in tuition from one year to the next. It's very gradual just like any medical school.
4) There is A LOT of opportunity for research here. There are a lot of great researchers. Simply youtube 'Ben-Gurion University' and you'll see what I mean. I'm not sure what scottaroner means by his statement. I may be misunderstanding. Is it that the admin doesn't support the students doing research? If that's what he means, that's simply not the case. We have several students in our class doing research. Some students can handle doing research during studies, some can't. It really depends on the students abilities.
5) Yes, Be'er sheva is a dump. For some, this is a problem. For many, we love that aspect of it! Be'er sheva looks ugly and it sometimes feels like we're in a developing country, but that's what it's all about!!
6) Getting a good grasp of medical Hebrew is essential. Everyday conversation is not essential. This is what the 3rd year students doing rotations at Soroka tell me.
7) We have 2nd choice after Columbia P&S students for electives at Columbia. So, we can do a TON of electives at Columbia. As for at other places, most students do electives at places where they think they'll want to match to. I don't think it's been a problem for most students.
8) Matching as an IMG is always harder. BUT, there are some programs that have routinely taken our grads and for those programs, it's probably not much of a problem matching there. Competitive specialties are simply that...competitive! If you have research, good Step 1 scores, there will be options.
9) We have two locations in India open now. There are often quite a few people that do their IHM clerkship in Israel (family reasons, etc.). All Americans not taking loans (there are ~7 in my class) and non-Americans (Canadians, Europeans) can visit any of the IHM sites. So, if there are 40 in a class, there may be 5 that stay in Israel, 7 that go to any random IHM site, the 4-5 non-Americans go to any random site, which leaves ~23 that go to the 2 sites in India. That splits into ~12 at each site. I don't think this will be a problem (these are all approximate numbers). The admin is still working on opening new sites as we speak.
Overall, scottaroner has made some excellent points. It's important to be flexible as Israel is not America...(but that's the whole point!). It just wouldn't be the same if everything was like America. I think every year has some improvements. Overall, for those in the incoming class, get ready for an adventure!! It really is an amazing learning experience.
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I don't think this represents the majority of student's feelings. Most students are dissatified or feel at least that there are area that require significant improvement. We all want the school to improve but we need willing, adequately paid administrators. Success is not just measured in terms of residency placement. The medical education you receive along the way is also important.
After corresponding via e-mail with 2 BGU grads and reading posts on the boards from 1 graduate, the consensus (from that small sampling) seems to be that the 3rd year clerkships were inadequate, and did not put them on the same footing as M3/M4 from North American schools. This has left me second guessing my initial decision to attend....
First and second years speak very highly of the school, but it's rare to hear from M3, M4, and graduates. It would be great if some more M4s and alumni who are still active on the boards could give us an idea of how they feel about their training now that they've graduated, or done their electives.
I have also discussed this with some BGU grads, and I guess what I heard is a variation of what you are saying: for your 3rd year clerkships, your knowledge of Hebrew is essential to your experience, and that if your Hebrew is good, then you will do well (and learn a lot during arguably the most important year of your training). Conversely, if your Hebrew is not so good, then you will struggle.
So in other words, regarding BGU students' success in their 3rd year, I didn't hear so much that it was due to lacking in the administration per se, rather, it is due to each individual's Hebrew language ability, their resourcefulness, etc. I didn't hear any complaints about 4th year though, although I didn't really ask.
I'm not sure if students face similar challenges at Sackler - with the Hebrew language during their clinical clerkships - but perhaps it might not present as such a problem at Sackler because many more of their students start with a background in Hebrew language.
Did you hear something on top of the Hebrew language barrier?
Bingo. However, I have heard good things about Sackler's clinical years.
I think the biggest disadvantage besides Hebrew is that hospitals/health care in Israel are run differently. For example, the SOAP style of writing notes is not employed. But according to one Sackler grad, you pick this up easily back in the states.
The plus side to all of this, however, is that in Israel you won't be working 6 days / 120 hours per week like you do in the states. Keep in mind too that while the preclinical years are pretty much standardized, the clinical rotations in the US vary widely. Many US grads complain of not getting hands on experience, doing pointless b*tch work, etc. It really depends on what school you go to.
So, I think it's what you make of it.
M2 here. The general consensus is that every year is better than the previous one.
1st year: is a bit disorganized but I found it to be good overall
2nd year: is a lot better than 1st year. Things just seems to flow much better. Plus, the material is so much more interesting.
3rd year: I haven't entered 3rd year yet but we've had class talks with the 3rd years about what to expect. The consensus was that they REALLY enjoyed 3rd year. There's a lot of hands-on experience. All the 3rd years at our talk had difficulty with their Hebrew but they still found 3rd year to be great. However, the consensus seems to be that the more Hebrew you know, the better. Having talked to 4th years, they all say that the hands-on experience in Israel is more than in the US. However, in Israel the manner in which patients are presented is very different and SOAP notes are not used so much.
I've heard that knowing Hebrew at Sackler is not nearly as important as it is at MSIH. Tel-Aviv has a much larger English-speaking population. Most of the patients at Soroka don't speak English.
1st year: is a bit disorganized but I found it to be good overall
2nd year: is a lot better than 1st year. Things just seems to flow much better. Plus, the material is so much more interesting.
3rd year: I haven't entered 3rd year yet but we've had class talks with the 3rd years about what to expect. The consensus was that they REALLY enjoyed 3rd year. There's a lot of hands-on experience. All the 3rd years at our talk had difficulty with their Hebrew but they still found 3rd year to be great. However, the consensus seems to be that the more Hebrew you know, the better. Having talked to 4th years, they all say that the hands-on experience in Israel is more than in the US. However, in Israel the manner in which patients are presented is very different and SOAP notes are not used so much.
I've heard that knowing Hebrew at Sackler is not nearly as important as it is at MSIH. Tel-Aviv has a much larger English-speaking population. Most of the patients at Soroka don't speak English.
It depends. In Beer-Sheva there is more Bedouin, Ethiopian, and Russian sectors. So I would add Arabic, Amharic and Russian to the very useful language list.
I'm getting a little more concerned about this language barrier the more and more i consider it.
Am I correct in assuming that during 3rd year, all the doctors speak english?
Its one thing to have patients who don't speak english, but i imagine it would be very challenging to learn if you had to be interacting in hebrew (if it isn't a language you're fluent in) with doctors during your clerkship year. I want to have the opportunity to learn, but I also want to have the ability to show that I understand medicine to those who will be evaluating me.
Also, all clinical notes that we have to write, I assume those are in Hebrew?
I'm a little mad at myself for not considering this language barrier enough. I hope its not something too prohibitive. I know Caribbean med schools have a huge stigma in the US, but there is something to be said for doing your 3rd year in English. Its just hard to go to one of those schools over a BGU, which seems like a great program otherwise, and even the so called "problem" that I am referring to is what makes the program unique/great in my mind, which is the location and demographic that it serves.
That's a really good point regarding the lack of English spoken in Be'er Sheva. When I visited Israel a couple weeks ago, I don't know how it to phrase it but Be'er Sheva felt more genuinely cultural and local while Tel Aviv felt like the modern big city.
I do think though that at MSIH they do push their students harder to learn Hebrew so that's a positive but in my opinion, I think it's going to be really hard to learn a new language when your main focus is making sure you're doing well in the classes that really matter and preparing for Step 1. I worry about that with both here and Sackler although at Sackler it's not as big of deal I think as it will be at MSIH.
Do you have another school jonnboy in the US?
I do think though that at MSIH they do push their students harder to learn Hebrew so that's a positive but in my opinion, I think it's going to be really hard to learn a new language when your main focus is making sure you're doing well in the classes that really matter and preparing for Step 1. I worry about that with both here and Sackler although at Sackler it's not as big of deal I think as it will be at MSIH.
Do you have another school jonnboy in the US?
Hey Robert,
MSIH is my only school at this point. Are you leaning toward Sackler or the DO school? Sounds like you have some good options.
and yes regarding your point about learning a new language, like you said i imagine it will be hard given that the main priority in the first two years is basic science and prep for step 1. and thats also not taking into account doing anything else outside of class like volunteer work or research. this is actually what some alums from the school said to me also.
Hey Guys,
I just wanted to clarify a few things for you. I was worried about some of the same things you are currently worried about. ALL the doctors speak English!! If they are working in an academic setting such as BGU, they HAVE to speak it. All research articles, etc are written in English so it's absolutely necessary for them to speak English.
ALL the clinical notes you write are in English. You don't have to write anything in Hebrew! You will learn how to read and write Hebrew in 1st year, but it's not that important. Knowing how to read Hebrew sometimes helps for every day life.
With regards to learning Hebrew, you don't have to know the ENTIRE language. Not even close!! You just need to know decent MEDICAL hebrew which you are taught during your clinical classes in 2nd year. My every day Hebrew is still horrible and 3rd year is going to be challenging. My medical Hebrew is much better. There is also a large Arabic speaking population in Be'er Sheva. I don't know a single word in Arabic. It's going to be challenging, but that's why I'm here. If you've ever worked in a developing country, the patients coming into the clinics speak in so many different dialects and languages. It's impossible to know every language. However, to have a basic understanding of the medical terms in the language can get you far. Also, there are a lot of non-verbal ways to communicate with patients and that's something we'll learn in our 3rd year. It's simply part of becoming a great global health practitioner.
There are 40-50 students in your class in the same boat as you. Trust me, most of you will be in the middle of the class in terms of Hebrew proficiency by the end of 2nd year. It takes hardly any time.
I just wanted to clarify a few things for you. I was worried about some of the same things you are currently worried about. ALL the doctors speak English!! If they are working in an academic setting such as BGU, they HAVE to speak it. All research articles, etc are written in English so it's absolutely necessary for them to speak English.
ALL the clinical notes you write are in English. You don't have to write anything in Hebrew! You will learn how to read and write Hebrew in 1st year, but it's not that important. Knowing how to read Hebrew sometimes helps for every day life.
With regards to learning Hebrew, you don't have to know the ENTIRE language. Not even close!! You just need to know decent MEDICAL hebrew which you are taught during your clinical classes in 2nd year. My every day Hebrew is still horrible and 3rd year is going to be challenging. My medical Hebrew is much better. There is also a large Arabic speaking population in Be'er Sheva. I don't know a single word in Arabic. It's going to be challenging, but that's why I'm here. If you've ever worked in a developing country, the patients coming into the clinics speak in so many different dialects and languages. It's impossible to know every language. However, to have a basic understanding of the medical terms in the language can get you far. Also, there are a lot of non-verbal ways to communicate with patients and that's something we'll learn in our 3rd year. It's simply part of becoming a great global health practitioner.
There are 40-50 students in your class in the same boat as you. Trust me, most of you will be in the middle of the class in terms of Hebrew proficiency by the end of 2nd year. It takes hardly any time.
I remember when I visited MSIH the students were stating that by end of 2nd year they'll be expected to do basic medical interviewing in Hebrew so that's not too bad if what's expected is to ask a few basic medical questions in Hebrew.
Jonnboy, to answer your question, I think I'm leaning towards a certain direction at this point. I don't want to analyze all the pros and cons in front of the entire forum so PM me if you want to share thoughts.
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I'm a new graduate and I wouldn't change my decision to attend BGU. You probably won't get as much out of the M3 clerkships as you would in the US because of the language barrier so you won't feel like you are part of the team, but I feel my education was on par with American students. Of course there will be a learning curve when you go the States and have to adjust to a new system - but most people do fine. Most of the complaints above are complaints that people also have at American unis. The problem with the international clerkships is annoying and disappointing but hopefully they will have something worked out soon. But talking to people in the US about med school experiences - I can say that going to school in Beer Sheva is definitely an adventure, and a unique experience. It's not a fancy city but no one is claiming it is.
My biggest piece of advice is to learn Hebrew. Being a Hebrew speaker helps so much! Some people really barely learned any of the language and those are the people who complained the most. If you aren't good at or don't enjoy learning languages you might want to reconsider. It's tough studying medicine and a new language but that's part of the challenge. Consider taking a class before you go or over one of your summers.
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Anyone applying in the 2011-2012 cycle? I can't find a thread. If I don't hear a response I guess I'll start one?
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Starting a new thread:
Ben Gurion University- Medical School for International Health 2011-2012 Cycle: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11678229#post11678229
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