Benefits of a physics degree in med school

[deleted407021]

I have extremely varying interests and love to learn about all sorts of things but I think that people are a little confused as to why you are arguing against studying physics in more detail when there is an option. For med school prerequisites, you're still going to take a year of psychics, so why not take the series that is clearly more beneficial? If you cannot be bothered with the extra effort personally, that is understandable but I cannot understand arguing it as the better option.

I chose to take trig based physics, under the impression that it would be easier than calculus based. Boy was I wrong. Memorizing equations sucks. Why do that when I can integrate a function in like 2 seconds and generate a solution? I made that decision. However, thanks to my professor, I am gaining a very detailed, sometimes annoyingly so, conceptual education in physics. I am actually quite decent at it. However, your post, and those of others suggests that someone who has not had calculus and calc based physics is somehow loosing out, terribly, and is less qualified for medical school and even life, than someone who took the sequence in question. That's off-putting.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[fuzzytoad]

There is this lingering criticism of physicians that they are merely "highly-trained technicians".

This is precisely why.

 

[jvquarterback]

What do you like as an alternative?

A free market in medical education.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

You can start up a Big Bang Theory within your med school

 

[deleted407021]

There is this lingering criticism of physicians that they are merely "highly-trained technicians".

This is precisely why.

I'm not sure it is.

 

[Patassa]

I chose to take trig based physics, under the impression that it would be easier than calculus based. Boy was I wrong. Memorizing equations sucks. Why do that when I can integrate a function in like 2 seconds and generate a solution?

I think you have the wrong idea of calculus based physics.

 

[487806]

I chose to take trig based physics, under the impression that it would be easier than calculus based. Boy was I wrong. Memorizing equations sucks. Why do that when I can integrate a function in like 2 seconds and generate a solution? I made that decision. However, thanks to my professor, I am gaining a very detailed, sometimes annoyingly so, conceptual education in physics. I am actually quite decent at it. However, your post, and those of others suggests that someone who has not had calculus and calc based physics is somehow loosing out, terribly, and is less qualified for medical school and even life, than someone who took the sequence in question. That's off-putting.

How so? Again, you won't understand E&M using algebra-based physics no matter how awesome your professor is.

 

[deleted407021]

I think you have the wrong idea of calculus based physics.

I know that only a bit of calculus is actually used and that many of the same equations are used in both trig and calc based.

 

[Patassa]

A free market in medical education.

What does that look like?

 

[Patassa]

I know that only a bit of calculus is actually used and that many of the same equations are used in both trig and calc based.

Exactly, so you won't be escaping gobs of equations in either class. Though I'm very surprised to hear that you are being asked to memorize formulas in intro physics class.

 

[Long Way to Go]

I did well in and really enjoyed calc-based physics.

Even as someone who has not yet gone through medical training, I still feel fairly confident in saying that my introductory community health course will prove to be far more useful in allowing me to be a better physician than mechanics or electromagnetism will. Way too many doctors seemingly don't have an iota of understanding of how medical events and their treatment affect patients in ways aside from their physical health. For all the complaining that I have heard about how psychology and sociology are going to be added to the premed curriculum...well, I'll just say that I won't be surprised if sociology turns out to have the most impact of any of the other prereqs.

 

[deleted407021]

How so? Again, you won't understand E&M using algebra-based physics no matter how awesome your professor is.

Is that not an entirely separate course that only engineering and physics students take? Certainly a useful subject for the development of each high tech tool we make use of on a daily basis, but not something that would absolutely fly over someone's head if they didn't sit down and work out an equation.

 

[deleted407021]

Exactly, so you won't be escaping gobs of equations in either class. Though I'm very surprised to hear that you are being asked to memorize formulas in intro physics class.

There are quite a few, yes. -___- The are obviously interrelated though.

 

[487806]

Is that not an entirely separate course that only engineering and physics students take? Certainly a useful subject for the development of each high tech tool we make use of on a daily basis, but not something that would absolutely fly over someone's head if they didn't sit down and work out an equation.

E&M is a required physics prereq and is tested on the MCAT.

 

[deleted407021]

E&M is a required physics prereq and is tested on the MCAT.

Well, then. I suppose no one who has taken trig based has ever passed that bit of the MCAT.

 

[487806]

Well, then. I suppose no one who has taken trig based has ever passed that bit of the MCAT.

I didn't say they didn't. All I said is you won't learn anything from E&M by using the algebra-based physics. Memorizing some equations and doing continuous practice doesn't equate to learning.

Anyways, since you haven't even taken calc-based physics, there's no point arguing about it. If however, someone who did take calc-based physics and have a different perspective, I'll take that into account. Not that your arguments were bad, but... it's not reliable in this context. Sorry.

 

[Patassa]

How so? Again, you won't understand E&M using algebra-based physics no matter how awesome your professor is.

To be fair "understand" is relative. To the EE guys, you aren't really understanding E&M in calc based Physics class anyways. You're getting a 10,000 feet look at it. Those guys go back and take entire semesters on one or two of those chapters in the Physics book.

 

[deleted407021]

I didn't say they didn't. All I said is you won't learn anything from E&M by using the algebra-based physics. Memorizing some equations and doing continuous practice doesn't equate to learning.

Anyways, since you haven't even taken calc-based physics, there's no point arguing about it. If however, someone who did take calc-based physics and have a different perspective, I'll take that into account. Not that your arguments were bad, but... it's not reliable in this context. Sorry.

But reading about it in depth and relating it to things around you does. Be creative with your learning. I'm not saying you don't, BTW.

 

[fuzzytoad]

I didn't say they didn't. All I said is you won't learn anything from E&M by using the algebra-based physics. Memorizing some equations and doing continuous practice doesn't equate to learning.

Precisely, and I would extend this argument to Newton's laws as well. There are relatively few equations to memorize in physics except when the fundamental principles by which they were derived (calculus) are ignored.

 

[487806]

To be fair "understand" is relative. To the EE guys, you aren't really understanding E&M in calc based Physics class anyways. You're getting a 10,000 feet look at it. Those guys go back and take entire semesters on one or two of those chapters in the Physics book.

Yeah that's entirely a separate issue.

 

[WierdScience]

I chose to take trig based physics, under the impression that it would be easier than calculus based. Boy was I wrong. Memorizing equations sucks. Why do that when I can integrate a function in like 2 seconds and generate a solution? I made that decision. However, thanks to my professor, I am gaining a very detailed, sometimes annoyingly so, conceptual education in physics. I am actually quite decent at it. However, your post, and those of others suggests that someone who has not had calculus and calc based physics is somehow loosing out, terribly, and is less qualified for medical school and even life, than someone who took the sequence in question. That's off-putting.

For some reason you seem to think that you trig based physics somehow means that you are learning and using more trig than the calc based physics, which is not at all true. Physics with calc or for S&E is more in depth on every level. And I did not in any sort of fashion indicate that someone who does not take physics w/calc is less qualified for medicine or life. I have very very simply stated that if you are going to spend the same amount of time studying one series or another, you should take the more in-depth one. A person who is focused on learning for the sake of learning as you claim to be would easily agree with this. Instead you try to defend taking an easier physics course, with a laundry list of fallible reasons. Taking the lesser physics will leave you less prepared 'physics-wise' for the MCAT but I have not said that it will make someone a lesser person or physician. But someone who cares about learning and is motivated will take the harder course because they will learn more and won't sit back and defend taking an easier class because they want someone else to agree with them to make them feel better about their decision. I actually think "trig-based physics," as you call it, is a lot of 'fun' to work with but it doesn't prepare you better in a single aspect of physics.

 

[fuzzytoad]

It seems clear to me that understanding of physics is not critical to being a successful physician - what people here need to understand is that this is not what we are arguing. Very little of the knowledge base learned in physics is required to effectively learn medicine.

However, there is a reason that physics is learned at all, and if your argument is to water it down by ignoring one of the fundamental concepts by which this knowledge was discovered and codified, then why learn it at all? Alg based physics is exactly as you describe @J Senpai : memorizing equations. You've taken a course so gutted that the only thing remaining is a bunch of letters and numbers separated by an equal sign, and exams that test whether or not you can plug and chug an equation. THAT is what's completely useless in med school.

Physics itself is the study of using rigorous mechanics (namely math and computation) to understand systems in nature. The value of physics isn't that you learn about EM or Newton's laws or even quantum. It's being able to create and manipulate abstractions that model problems. All problem solving is abstraction. Do you need physics to be a good problem solver? No. But are physicists good problem solvers in general. Yes.

Also just wanted to add: there is a huge difference between the statements "a physics degree is useful in medicine" and "calc-based physics should be a requirement for med-school".

 

[deleted407021]

This has become ridiculous. We are different individuals with varying values, perspectives and interests. What we find important in a course is going to be something else for another person. Criticizing one's motivation and fervor for learning based upon a single course they choose to take is absurd. What people actually mean in their writing is clear to anyone who is moderately well read, while others struggle to read between the lines. I agree with each of your above statements, @fuzzytoad . Let's get back to the discussion the OP intended, assuming anyone is still interested. I'm not so inclined.

 

[WierdScience]

It seems clear to me that understanding of physics is not critical to being a successful physician - what people here need to understand is that this is not what we are arguing. Very little of the knowledge base learned in physics is required to effectively learn medicine.

However, there is a reason that physics is learned at all, and if your argument is to water it down by ignoring one of the fundamental concepts by which this knowledge was discovered and codified, then why learn it at all? Alg based physics is exactly as you describe @J Senpai : memorizing equations. You've taken a course so gutted that the only thing remaining is a bunch of letters and numbers separated by an equal sign, and exams that test whether or not you can plug and chug an equation. THAT is what's completely useless in med school.

Also just wanted to add: there is a huge difference between the statements "a physics degree is useful in medicine" and "calc-based physics should be a requirement for med-school".

Very well stated. Maybe a simple understanding of even the simplest things, like the arguments in this thread require calculus-based physics

 

[Lucca]

Alternatively, if someone has a pathological aversion to mathematics (I hate the stigma math gets in our culture but that's the world we live in) I recommend philosophy (provided the phil. dept. at your school is "analytical"), formal logic, discrete mathematics, CS/EE intro courses, and linear algebra courses. Basically, anything that requires logical proofs. It teaches the same skills that physics would and you don't have to absolutely commit the entirety of your weekends to problem sets - well, that depends on your school but there yah go. @gyngyn is right, you can learn to think in any major. If you go to a decent university there is probably some sort of logic and reasoning requirement for every degree anyway.

EDIT: before anyone yells at me, linear algebra and discrete mathematics might be appealing to the math averse since you don't really do much calculating and that is what seems to scare people.

 

[487806]

This has become ridiculous. We are different individuals with varying values, perspectives and interests. What we find important in a course is going to be something else for another person. Criticizing one's motivation and fervor for learning based upon a single course they choose to take is absurd. What people actually mean in their writing is clear to anyone who is moderately well read, while others struggle to read between the lines. I agree with each of your above statements, @fuzzytoad . Let's get back to the discussion the OP intended, assuming anyone is still interested. I'm not so inclined.

All I said was get rid of algebra-based physics and replace it with calculus-based physics. I think that's a fair assessment to make.

 

[deleted407021]

All I said was get rid of algebra-based physics and replace it with calculus-based physics. I think that's a fair assessment to make.

Might as well. When one is better than the other, why not just be rid of the lesser one? That leaves the problem of some majors who have to have trig based physics for their degree. Construction management, sports management and physical fitness education are some at my school.

 

[Goro]

Jeeze, don't take it personally.

And nope...just physics. I'd replace it with molecular AND cellular biology, and genetics as well. Maybe biochem too.

@Goro @J Senpai By your line of reasoning, we should do away with the requirement to have a bachelors degree at all, afterall the vast majority of a majors curriculum is useless to med students, why not just have everyone do a post-bac?

I'm going to get a lot of flak for this but @J Senpai is free to enjoy as much history and english as he/she wants in the 15th century, if you want to live in the modern world you should learn a little about all the things that went into making it.

Furthermore what people need to understand is that what we learn in undergraduate, med school, residency forms the basis of a career that will span decades, and medicine is increasingly relies on advanced technology. An understading of how the technology works and being intellectually equipped to keep up with rapid changes will define weather we remain doctors or become glorified clerks that push buttons. Your knowledge of history or english will be irrelevant to being a apex level care provider in a rapidly evolving field. However, your knowledge and depth of understanding in physics, computer science and electronics will serve both you and your patients much better.

 

[487806]

Jeeze, don't take it personally.

And nope...just physics. I'd replace it with molecular AND cellular biology, and genetics as well. Maybe biochem too.

Talk about biasedness. I guess to each their own.

Might as well. When one is better than the other, why not just be rid of the lesser one? That leaves the problem of some majors who have to have trig based physics for their degree. Construction management, sports management and physical fitness education are some at my school.

Yeah I don't understand the UG's reasoning behind that. I think in those cases, they can have administrative override of algebra-based physics with calc-based physics.

 

[knv2u]

Might as well. When one is better than the other, why not just be rid of the lesser one? That leaves the problem of some majors who have to have trig based physics for their degree. Construction management, sports management and physical fitness education are some at my school.

They wouldn't allow those individuals to substitute calculus based physics at all? That is pretty surprising.

 

[Physics92]

Why is learning physics/math useful? So we don't go around publishing stuff like this:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/17/2/152.abstract

 

[WierdScience]

At my school, they were able to substitute. But maybe that's not the case everywhere?

 

[gyngyn]

Well of course. But I think we can agree that the content of what you are thinking about has something to do with it.

In decades of evaluating applicants, medical students, residents and practicing physicians I have found that those who have distinguished themselves in their chosen field (whatever it may have been) are a delight to teach and a pleasure to learn from. No field of study has a monopoly on the truth and the ways in which truth is approached are as variable as the individuals that seek it.

 

[deleted407021]

In decades of evaluating applicants, medical students, residents and practicing physicians I have found that those who have distinguished themselves in their chosen field (whatever it may have been) are a delight to teach and a pleasure to learn from. No field of study has a monopoly on the truth and the ways in which truth is approached is as variable as the individuals that seek it.

Well said. Someone who is truly motivated to learn won't be defined by what classes they choose to take, but what they do with their chosen area of study. Anyone can major in something and not truly participate. Someone with drive can do something unique which will lend value to their major and let them grow as a person.

 

[Goro]

The term is "bias". And it's not bias, it';s based upon experience since I know what my students have to learn.

Talk about biasedness. I guess to each their own.

 

[487806]

The term is "bias". And it's not bias, it';s based upon experience since I know what my students have to learn.

Talk about biasedness. I guess to each their own.

Sure. I guess it varies based on personal taste (or experience). But making more bio courses required just shows favor towards actual bio majors compared to those majoring in other subjects and exploring their world in UG. I'd prefer to simplify the requirements and make only the most essential courses required (just bio and biochem is fine). Leave all the rest to med school

 

[fuzzytoad]

Yes yes, someone who is awesome is awesome anywhere. But it is one thing to say that some one should study whatever they want, and another to ignore that different topics exercise different cognitive functions more than others, and thus confer a different way of thinking to its students.

I am advocating that the mindset developed by those with rigorous study in mathematics and physics is relevant to medicine. Not that people who don't study physics are dumb.

 

[487806]

Before the thread continues to digress I'll just make few important remarks:

1. A physics degree is like any other degree: how you view it to be useful for medicine is entirely personal choice, since you'll study all the material you need to know in medical school.
2. Calculus-based physics should be the physics prereqs in most (if not all) medical schools for reasons mentioned before.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Sure. I guess it varies based on personal taste (or experience). But making more bio courses required just shows favor towards actual bio majors compared to those majoring in other subjects and exploring their world in UG. I'd prefer to simplify the requirements and make only the most essential courses required (just bio and biochem is fine). Leave all the rest to med school

What a tremendous time suck that would be. If we had to quickly teach people about the chemistry and physics they needed to know to understand pharmacology and physiology, those courses would be even more challenging than they are now. I don't think those concepts lend themselves well to the lecture format of med school. We'd need an army of TAs with generous office hours and all kind of remedial support. There simply isn't time for that. Already you can tell that the people with extremely limited bio experience have a harder time getting some of the bio concepts (really a small minority in my experience, even people who weren't bio majors have usually taken a couple in depth, well taught bio courses).

 

[487806]

What a tremendous time suck that would be. If we had to quickly teach people about the chemistry and physics they needed to know to understand pharmacology and physiology, those courses would be even more challenging than they are now. I don't think those concepts lend themselves well to the lecture format of med school. We'd need an army of TAs with generous office hours and all kind of remedial support. There simply isn't time for that. Already you can tell that the people with extremely limited bio experience have a harder time getting some of the bio concepts (really a small minority in my experience, even people who weren't bio majors have usually taken a couple in depth, well taught bio courses).

Wait I'm confused. All I was saying is keep the bio reqs as it is (like the intro bio and biochem). But doesn't the MCAT validate bio performance? I don't understand what would be the problem, so sorry for my naivete

 

[gyngyn]

I am advocating that the mindset developed by those with rigorous study in mathematics and physics is relevant to medicine. Not that people who don't study physics are dumb.

Rigor is rigor, without regard to the subject.

 

[jvquarterback]

What does that look like?

Well there hasn't been anything close to it during the past 140 years. Physicians have historically precluded others from their turf through state boards, but I'd imagine some sort of apprenticeship starting in the early teens if you also do away with the useless secondary and undergraduate educational systems. If you continue that madness then at least a free market medical educational system would provide less expensive options and more physicians (or physician replacements). The private accrediting boards would give people who pass their exams a way to market themselves, but there would be no concocted barrier to entry for intermediate providers like PAs and NPs who are just as often better than MDs.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Wait I'm confused. All I was saying is keep the bio reqs as it is (like the intro bio and biochem). But doesn't the MCAT validate bio performance? I don't understand what would be the problem, so sorry for my naivete

I'm sorry I thought you were saying get rid of the physics/chemistry prerequisites. Guess that was others in this thread. I don't really have a problem with the bio prerequistes as is, although I am amazed by some of the topics apparently not covered by some schools' intro bio course.

 

[Patassa]

Well there hasn't been anything close to it during the past 140 years. Physicians have historically precluded others from their turf through state boards, but I'd imagine some sort of apprenticeship starting in the early teens if you also do away with the useless secondary and undergraduate educational systems. If you continue that madness then at least a free market medical educational system would provide less expensive options and more physicians (or physician replacements). The private accrediting boards would give people who pass their exams a way to market themselves, but there would be no concocted barrier to entry for intermediate providers like PAs and NPs who are just as often better than MDs.

Libertarian ideas remind me of the scrolling storyline from Star Wars, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away" these things happened.
I'm not sure that the incorporation of even a modest dose of liberal arts into general education was the worst thing. Treating every profession as if it's a trade? I'm even less sure of that.

 

[pietachok]

When you get to MSII, let us know if you change your opinion.

As an MS IV I wholeheartedly disagree with you as well. There are plenty of concepts (many of which Ismet pointed out) that are much more intuitive if you have a strong grasp of physics. We can't go back and re-experience med school with/without the physics background we had, so I'm not sure it's something one would ever "miss" if doing med school without it, but I know that I draw parallels between what I know from my background in engineering and what I learn in medicine that help me to retain information and approach it differently.

Do you *have* to have it to practice medicine? No. Do a significant number of future doctors understand concepts better because of it (some possibly without realizing it)? I'm quite certain they do.

 

[gyngyn]

As an MS IV I wholeheartedly disagree with you as well. There are plenty of concepts (many of which Ismet pointed out) that are much more intuitive if you have a strong grasp of physics. .

But can you say with confidence that a deep understanding of some other discipline would not have served you as well?

 

[pietachok]

But can you say with confidence that a deep understanding in some other discipline would not have served you as well?

My statement was in reference to Goro saying he think physics shouldn't be required, not any statement that other disciplines are not beneficial.

 

[Mad Jack]

I can think of no reason that physics would be of any use to a medical student OR clinician, unless one were to specialize in nuclear medicine.

OK, maybe some elements of physiology, relating to gas pressure and fluid dynamics.

I also see no reason for physics to be a prerequisite. It's so, well, 20th Century.

Times have changed in the 100 years since the Flexner report was released.

I really felt like physics made all of the other basic sciences tie together. I actually took physics 1 and 2 as some of my last post bacc courses, and was amazed at how much clearer physics made things like action potentials in biology and biochemistry, bond energy and bond strength in chemistry, thermodynamic principles of chemistry that help you understand enzymes, etc. It helps build a solid foundation for everything that you learn later on, without which you cannot truly understand certain biological processes at the molecular and cellular level nearly as well as someone who understands basic physics.

I'm not yet a med student, but I do work in critical care at a huge medical center as a respiratory therapist. understanding physics has helped me and the pulmonologists on staff figure out some fairly difficult problems that you only run into in odd situations, where you are wrestling with high levels of PEEP, multilobar collapse, extremely low lung compliance, and a low blood pressure all at the same time. Things like this are really just complex fluid dynamics problems, which I would not be able to properly visualize and understand without my physics coursework. Hell, just understanding why and how PEEP works without a good handle on physics can be difficult.

Physics is also a foundational component of any science education. While it may not all be applicable to medicine, physicians are a part of the scientific community. Its language, symbols, and concepts are a part of the scientific lexicon, which physicians must understand to share and integrate data with other members of the scientific community.

I hated physics by the way, but cannot state how glad I am that I was forced to suffer through it.

 

[gyngyn]

I hated physics by the way, but cannot state how glad I am that I was forced to suffer through it.

Identification with the oppressor is the first step!

 

[masaraksh]

I regret not taking more math & computer science. There are huge benefits to studying those disciplines. BUUUUUT, it completely depends on who you are and what you want to do in medicine.