Best in TX

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mhaddi

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Hey,
I was wondering which schools in Texas had the best preclinical teaching. Thanx. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by mhaddi:
•Hey,
I was wondering which schools in Texas had the best preclinical teaching. Thanx. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> •••••That is an extremely subjective question. Obviously it would largely depend on how you prefer to learn - block style, PBL, traditional.

I would say this however - during the pre-clinical years you will be self reliant to a large extent. At the end of the day it is up to you to absorb that mound of material. Personally, I found that I could learn it faster than most professors could lecture it so I rarely went.

I'm sure you'll do fine at any of the Tx schools.
 
Most people would cite Southwestern or Baylor as being the best schools in Texas. If you're just talking about pre-clinical years...Southwestern has 4 nobel laureates, 3 of whom will actually lecture.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:
•Southwestern has 4 nobel laureates, 3 of whom will actually lecture.•••••Not to be a complete ass, but what does that have to do with teaching ability? I think those who have seen A Beautiful Mind can attest to the fact that being a Nobel laureate does not make one a great educator.

That being said, I think any Texas school will give you a great foundation in pre-clinical education. As was said before, each school has its own teaching format, so go with what you think will suit you best.
 
I personally love my school and would detest Southwestern's style. We have a mixture of lecture and PBL here, and most days have class 8-12 1st year and 1-5 2nd year. The rest of the time is self-directed. Granted, you do have to be disciplined and you kind of have to "guess" how much the test will cover, but that's still lightyears better than Southwestern's 8-5 lecture curriculum, IMO. Its also VERY clinically-oriented, and we learn history and physical in the first 8 weeks. We start site visits and patient workups and presentation skills in mid-October of 1st year. I like it that way, everything seems relevant instead of seeming like a bunch of stupid random facts that have to be memorized.

Star
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SocialistMD:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:
•Southwestern has 4 nobel laureates, 3 of whom will actually lecture.•••••Not to be a complete ass, but what does that have to do with teaching ability? I think those who have seen A Beautiful Mind can attest to the fact that being a Nobel laureate does not make one a great educator.

That being said, I think any Texas school will give you a great foundation in pre-clinical education. As was said before, each school has its own teaching format, so go with what you think will suit you best.•••••Oh dear. One of the big worries among many MS1's-to-be (AKA MS0's) at UT-Southwestern is precisely what SocialistMD alluded to here. Yes, UTSW has 4 Nobel Laureates sitting on its faculty. But when you're actually sweating bullets taking an exam, trying to recall a minute biochem rule, do you really care about the prof's resume? I sure don't. Many people that will be starting this coming year are very worried that while the credentials of the profs may be excellent, their ability to convey the material may not be up to par. After all, in order to be a good teacher, one must remember what it felt like to be a student and confused as hell. Considering how far advanced some of these profs are in their field, this may be difficult for them to do.

In essence, the credentials of the profs make no difference; their ability to convey the material in an easy and managable way makes all the difference to the students' comprehension of the material.

That said, I'm sure UT-Southwestern has excellent pre-clinical teaching, by virtue of their professors' abilities, not research accomplishments. It is also interesting to note that the incoming class at UTSW is predicted to kick so much ass that the Nobel Laureates will soon be recruiting them. :wink:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SocialistMD:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:
•Southwestern has 4 nobel laureates, 3 of whom will actually lecture.•••••Not to be a complete ass, but what does that have to do with teaching ability? I think those who have seen A Beautiful Mind can attest to the fact that being a Nobel laureate does not make one a great educator.

That being said, I think any Texas school will give you a great foundation in pre-clinical education. As was said before, each school has its own teaching format, so go with what you think will suit you best.•••••I agree with you when you say that any Texas school will give you a great education. But I think your allusion to a (very bad) movie like a Beautiful Mind is kind of silly. Certainly a nobel prize is no guarantee of teaching ability BUT neither is it a sign that someone lacks teaching ability.

My point was simply that Southwestern has one of the best faculties in Texas, or the world for that matter. And it is not just that they have more nobels than any other med school in the world - they also have a dozen national academy of science members.

Many people would see that as a plus.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:

My point was simply that Southwestern has one of the best faculties in Texas, or the world for that matter. And it is not just that they have more nobels than any other med school in the world - they also have a dozen national academy of science members.

Many people would see that as a plus.•••••Only if you are trying to impress people at a cocktail party.

I have had some very intelligent people lecture my courses throughout my education; some were terrible and some were wonderful. It still remains to be seen how much a Nobel Prize correlates to teaching ability (I find out next block), but I do not think it is an indicator of how well a person can convey a message.

As far as "best faculties" goes, I again think it comes down not to what a person has done in his/her career, but how well he/she can convey a message. Anyone who has a basic knowledge of a field can read a paper and present it to other people (it's called "journal club meetings"). The true indicator of a great educator is how well one can convey that message to his/her audience. Intelligence and accomplishments are independent of this; in fact, in many cases (but not all) they are inversely related. To say UTHSCD has one of the most prestigious and accomplished faculties in Texas would be accurate; to say they have one of the best is overstepping the bounds of your supporting evidence.
 
I guess I should throw in my $0.05 (inflation rules) for Baylor...

We basically have what most medical schools in TX have as far as curriculum -- 8-12 Classes + IPS (or PBL) and a PPS (Patient-Physician & Society - where we work at a preceptor's office). As far as teaching goes, here is my synopsis of each class and how it went w/ our new curriculum (it's all organ-based now):

Core Concepts -&gt; This was our first block that basically integrated a lot of fundamental material. I enjoyed this block the most -- probably because it was a review from college... We had A LOT of clincal correlations every week. Basically, as the week progressed we'd move up the hierarchy, from molecules to medicine... it was a real nice intro.

Cardio/Respiratory/Renal -&gt; Bitch of a 4 week block... renal in 4 days? Feh. They are bumping this block up to 5 weeks next year and cutting back on core concepts. Our exam was very unforgiving too...

GIMNER (GI, Metabolism, Nutrition, Endocrine, and Reproductive) --&gt; 6 week block... I think Baylor was taking it reallllllly easy on us this block mainly due to the fiasco involving their grading system (You must score &gt;= 80 to pass the semester). However, that's not to say that we weren't grilled hard (we still had to keep our head above water with the damn 80)...

Immunology/Pathology/Anatomy -&gt; No complaints, etc.

Neurology -&gt; By far the best class we've had so far. The labs really reinforce the material (it's kind of sad, but I've never had a lab this good before) we're learning in class. We have had quite a bit of clincal applications so far (3 weeks into the block), so no complaints yet...

Infectious Disease -&gt; It's dense... what can be said?

Ethics/Behavioural Sciences -&gt; Blah.

I'm pretty sure that our experience with IPS is consistent with that of other schools in TX. I am not sure about PPS, however. We've been seeing patients since the first week of class, basically. I am not really sure about other schools...

So far I've enjoyed myself at BCM, but that's not to say that I wouldn't have enjoyed myself at any other school. I don't think you're going to find a bad medical school in TX. 🙂 They are all pretty good in my opinion.

As far as programs and such, Baylor is pushing other avenues that some schools may not be pushing. For instance, we have a few joint degrees, MD/PhD (one of two NIH supported schools in TX); MD/MBA; MSRT (Medical Student Research Track) -- that seems to be a new program that any MS1 can join (I'm in it); MD/MPH... etc. I suppose the only program that stands out right now is the MSRT since it's fairly new.
 
I forgot to mention... Hands down, BCM has the best damn Cell Bio professor at any of the TX schools. I've never seen so much raw energy in a prof before, esp. one that knows his ****.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by cmz:
•I forgot to mention... Hands down, BCM has the best damn Cell Bio professor at any of the TX schools. I've never seen so much raw energy in a prof before, esp. one that knows his ****.•••••One of the best damn cell bio professors in the country if you ask me. However, he said he isn't going to teach next year. 🙁 But, he said that last year too, so maybe there is hope.
 
I'm not sure why this seems to bother you so much, SocMD? And I think you are being just a bit cavalier when you say that all of this, "only matters at cocktail parties."

Not very realistic, IMHO.

It is a well known fact that a good letter from, or research published with, a well known faculty member is a valuable asset when it comes to residencies, etc. That is simply a fact - and something well worth considering when a student evaluates a school.

That being the case, clearly a student would have better opportunities, generally speaking, at a school with a better regarded faculty.

As for Southwestern, in a USNEWS survey of medical school deans and senior faculty asked to rank medical schools by academic reputation, UTSW was ranked tied for 12th with UCLA and Univ of Chicago.

That placed them just behind Columbia and Yale, while placing Southwestern just ahead of Cornell and Baylor.

So, if we re-consider what you said:

"To say UTHSCD has one of the most prestigious and accomplished faculties in Texas would be accurate; to say they have one of the best is overstepping the bounds of your supporting evidence."

According to my evidence above, Southwestern scores the highest in Texas (albeit only marginally ahead of Baylor) on a reputational survey of academics. At #12 overall out of the 100+ American medical schools, it clearly has one of the best regarded faculties.
 
Ooops, forgot to post the link. The ranking referred to above is at this address:

<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/med/gdmedt1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/med/gdmedt1.htm</a>

Just hit the tab at the top to sort by academic reputation.

Cheers,
Kurtz
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:
•It is a well known fact that a good letter from, or research published with, a well known faculty member is a valuable asset when it comes to residencies, etc. That is simply a fact - and something well worth considering when a student evaluates a school.

That being the case, clearly a student would have better opportunities, generally speaking, at a school with a better regarded faculty.

As for Southwestern, in a USNEWS survey of medical school deans and senior faculty asked to rank medical schools by academic reputation, UTSW was ranked tied for 12th with UCLA and Univ of Chicago.

That placed them just behind Columbia and Yale, while placing Southwestern just ahead of Cornell and Baylor.

So, if we re-consider what you said:

"To say UTHSCD has one of the most prestigious and accomplished faculties in Texas would be accurate; to say they have one of the best is overstepping the bounds of your supporting evidence."

According to my evidence above, Southwestern scores the highest in Texas (albeit only marginally ahead of Baylor) on a reputational survey of academics. At #12 overall out of the 100+ American medical schools, it clearly has one of the best regarded faculties.•••••More prestige/a better reputation does not equal better teaching.

We are discussing the ability of teachers to convey their message, not how reputed a school is. Preclinical teaching does not go hand in hand with prestige of a program. I put no faith in the US News's ranking system, mainly because they simply reinforce the notion of "prestige" rather than addressing where students learn the best. To be honest, it isn't even a big part of the criteria for their poll (if at all). How could the deans at other schools know the teaching skills of faculty around the country? They don't; they base their decision on, "Well, I have heard of these guys, and are the leaders of their fields, so I will rank their program higher than this school who has only a few people who I know."

Again, if this is how you choose to support your statement that the teaching at UTHSCD is better, then I would have to say you are still overstepping your bounds. You can take your "reputed" letter wherever you want, but if you were not able to learn the material because you had awful teachers, it will not carry you anywhere.

As for why I am even "bothered" by all of this is because many people, like you, tend to think the reputation of a school means it is the best place to learn. I want people, yourself included, to think past the numbers and actually analyze what the data is saying (maybe it is the scientist in me?). Some people will go into a program based solely on reputation and find they are unsuccessful there because it does not cater to their style. Having someone point this out to them may make them choose based on more important things in their selection of which school to attend and thus make them happier in med school.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by lilycat:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by cmz:
•I forgot to mention... Hands down, BCM has the best damn Cell Bio professor at any of the TX schools. I've never seen so much raw energy in a prof before, esp. one that knows his ****.•••••One of the best damn cell bio professors in the country if you ask me. However, he said he isn't going to teach next year. 🙁 But, he said that last year too, so maybe there is hope.•••••This is true to some extent... I don't think he'll be teaching the GIMNER module, but I think he'll be around for core concepts and Neuro (at least I hope next years class is afforded the chance to be taught by him)...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by D-:
•UT-Houston is the best. Everything else you hear is rhetoric.•••••Yes, you *are* entitled to your opinion. :wink:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by D-:
•UT-Houston is the best. Everything else you hear is rhetoric.•••••Yeah UT-Houston is ranked in the top 10% of the worse med schools in the nation. Hey at least it is on the top 10% of something.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by intraining:
Yeah UT-Houston is ranked in the top 10% of the worse med schools in the nation. Hey at least it is on the top 10% of something.••••Oh well, I guess it could be worse.
 
Hey what about Texas Tech. I'll be starting there in August and am slightly worried about their straight-laced curriculum. PBL and systems-based learning are the buzz phrases everywhere but Tech. Should I be worried? There is also the numerical grading system. What do you think of that?

All in all, though, I'll be happy to go to Tech.
 
Hey all,

I know this is the allopathic forum, but I wanted to leave a comment about TCOM, in Ft. Worth. I am a PA who has been in family medicine since graduating from UTMB in 98. I had the wonderful experience of doing exactly 1/3 of my clinicals at UTMB, Baylor, and UTH. From what I saw, Baylor seemed to be the most organized and student friendly school, but Ben Taub is really a nasty place to work. The UT schools also had extremely good points as well. I was accepted this year at Texas A&M and TCOM, and chose TCOM because of its mostly primary care focus. I plan to do my residency though at UTH most likely in FP, because I think their facilities across the board are the best. You get to work at Hermann and LBJ, as well as the city clinics. I hope you guys don't mind me pitching in my two cents, and I hope you who are still young whipper snappers will understand why some choose to go the DO route. The FP residencies in Texas are filled to the brim with DO graduates, and TCOM is also on that USNews ranking list for primary care!!
Texas is the best place to get a cheap and excellent education!
 
SocMD:

I'm not too interested in getting in to a pissing match here. I also consider myself to be an open-minded individual. So in that spirit...You mentioned:

"I want people, yourself included, to think past the numbers and actually analyze what the data is saying (maybe it is the scientist in me?)."

I am willing to analyze your data - if you would post some.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:
•SocMD:

I'm not too interested in getting in to a pissing match here. •••••I'm afraid that this forum has already turned into a big pissing match...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:

I am willing to analyze your data - if you would post some.•••••Sometimes it feels like I am pissing (to follow the new theme) into the wind when I talk to some people on this forum. If for one second people would actually make an attempt to read and understand what I write (I promise, the way I phrase things is not too terribly hard to understand) rather than taking from it what they want to read, I would spend much less of my time repeating myself, putting my words on a third grade reading level in order for people to comprehend.

It is not my data that needs to be analyzed; it is yours. I want you to actually think about what goes into those rankings and how much they really tell you about the quality of the educators you will have at the "top-ranked" schools as opposed to at "lower-tier" schools. I present nothing that says the education is better or worse anywhere else, I just say that your information does not indicate what you claim it does. It is about this that I want you to think.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SocialistMD:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Kurtz:

I am willing to analyze your data - if you would post some.•••••Sometimes it feels like I am pissing (to follow the new theme) into the wind when I talk to some people on this forum. If for one second people would actually make an attempt to read and understand what I write (I promise, the way I phrase things is not too terribly hard to understand) rather than taking from it what they want to read, I would spend much less of my time repeating myself, putting my words on a third grade reading level in order for people to comprehend.

It is not my data that needs to be analyzed; it is yours. I want you to actually think about what goes into those rankings and how much they really tell you about the quality of the educators you will have at the "top-ranked" schools as opposed to at "lower-tier" schools. I present nothing that says the education is better or worse anywhere else, I just say that your information does not indicate what you claim it does. It is about this that I want you to think.•••••OK. On that note I think we can kill this thread.
 
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