best programs to get a pain fellowship

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aspiring_painMD

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Hey All,

I know that pain fellowships are highly competitive nowadays. I'm an applicant this year and I'm very interested in pain (considered anesthesiology for a while). Which programs, aside from the top names (baylor, kessler, ric, uw, mayo, spaulding) are great for pain.

On the interview trail I learned the emory, ucla, columbia/cornell, and u mich have affiliated (unofficial or not) pain programs that favor their own. Anyone know of any others?

How important is an audition week with a fellowship director? Some programs offer lots of away electives, whereas most offer little.

How important is it to be a chief resident if you go to a bigger name program?

thx

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I can tell you that the UMich PM&R pain fellowship does not favor their own residents. I used to think otherwise. Being a Chief resident here does not seem to help either. This year they took one person from Umich, the other two from RIC and Spaulding.

The other thing that is important to investigate is whether there are people in high positions within the residency program (program director, chairperson, faculty, etc) that will make calls and connections for you when you are on the interview trail. This is a very important step that I did not understand until later in the process. For example, my understanding is that Baylor has somebody who does this extensively for seniors seeking fellowships.

aspiring_painMD said:
On the interview trail I learned the emory, ucla, columbia/cornell, and u mich have affiliated (unofficial or not) pain programs that favor their own. Anyone know of any others?

How important is it to be a chief resident if you go to a bigger name program?

thx
 
aspiring_painMD said:
Hey All,

I know that pain fellowships are highly competitive nowadays. I'm an applicant this year and I'm very interested in pain (considered anesthesiology for a while). Which programs, aside from the top names (baylor, kessler, ric, uw, mayo, spaulding) are great for pain.

On the interview trail I learned the emory, ucla, columbia/cornell, and u mich have affiliated (unofficial or not) pain programs that favor their own. Anyone know of any others?

How important is an audition week with a fellowship director? Some programs offer lots of away electives, whereas most offer little.

How important is it to be a chief resident if you go to a bigger name program?

thx

That's funny you mention those programs who "favor their own"... PGY4s from RIC are going to UCLA and UMich for pain. We just took a couple residents from Kessler. So not sure if this "favor their own" thing is that set in stone. Of course, there's always "back stories" of what really happened... (i.e. fellowships offered to certain ppl, they turned offers down, etc..)
As far as being chief, it can only help... But different programs have different methods of selecting their chiefs so not sure if fellowship directors use the chief resident thing as a gauge of the resident's competence...

Some programs allow all senior residents to be "chief".
 
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I think that if you are interested in a PM&R accredited fellowship, doing your residency at an institution with an affiliated fellowship position can put you on the inside track. As other people have attested, most programs will not exclusively pick their own, but even one position routinely offered to in-house residents is better than being an outsider. As long as you do not alienate people in positions of power you have a chance. As the previous post noted, there is also a fair amount of politics that goes into this process. I agree that the chief residency means different things at different positions and not being the chief should not necessarily keep you from the position you want.

If you are certain that this is the path you want consider positioning your self appropriately early in residency training. Take advantage of research opportunities, chances to do presentations and pick electives wisely.

There are programs with a history with placing their residents well, but you would be suprised at how well other programs do. Sometimes being a big fish in a small pood during residency can be advantagous. Also having a PD that is proactive can not hurt.

First you will need to figure out if you want a accredited anesthesiology pain fellowship, or a accredited pm&r "pain" fellowship or a unaccredited interventional spine fellowship. (there are many posts here that delineated the subtleties)

I am a PGY-4 resident at GTUH/NRH in Washington DC, doing a accredited anesthesiology-based pain fellowship next year. In my opinion, GTUH/NRH is an improving program, that is probably currently regarded as a mid-tier program, yet most of the residents interested in pain/interventional spine fellowships in the past several years have secured them without much difficulty. (The one caveat is the increasing competitiveness of fellowships)
 
UMich does have a history of giving any graduate who wanted a fellowship first dibs on the in-house fellowships. Historically, there would only be one graduate who was interested in a pain spot, and it wouldn't be a prob.

However, due to the increased competition for those pain spots as well as increased interest by the senior class, all of the applicants couldn't be accomodated at UMich...

That's the short version... ;) Email ligament for his two cents.
 
At jefferson, we had 2 residents goto pm&r acgme accredited (furman-sinai & falco-temple), one went pm&r (Florida Spine, not accredited), and one went to anesthesia (acgme accredited). None stayed in-house. Our pain program (anes acgme-accredited) took two anes from in-house and one pm&r from walter reed.

We have two chiefs a year and they went to the pm&r (acgme accredited).
 
Ligament said:
I can tell you that the UMich PM&R pain fellowship does not favor their own residents. I used to think otherwise. Being a Chief resident here does not seem to help either. This year they took one person from Umich, the other two from RIC and Spaulding.

The other thing that is important to investigate is whether there are people in high positions within the residency program (program director, chairperson, faculty, etc) that will make calls and connections for you when you are on the interview trail. This is a very important step that I did not understand until later in the process. For example, my understanding is that Baylor has somebody who does this extensively for seniors seeking fellowships.


That kinda sucks that UMich does not favor their own anymore. Lots of residents have told me the importance of your 2nd piont, but who is to know how supportive a program director is. Every single program I have interviewed at will state they have an extremely supportive program director who makes calls and pulls strings for residents.

I know the UCLA program still heavily favors their own, and takes up to 2 of their own residents for its pain program. However, I'm not sure about quality of the training there relative to the big name programs. I'll have to see when i interview.
 
Right now, due to the expected growing competition for the few ACGME pain medicine fellowships over the next few years, if UCLA favors their own, consider it.
With respect to knowing how supportive PD's are, try to speak to the current pain fellows about their residency PD, so you can get the most accurate story.
Mehul 25's advice is on the money. Many of the applicants are chief residents who have 1-3 presentaions and/or publications during their residency. That is very hard to accomplish in a three year residency.
Good luck.
 
aspiring_painMD said:
I know the UCLA program still heavily favors their own, and takes up to 2 of their own residents for its pain program. However, I'm not sure about quality of the training there relative to the big name programs. I'll have to see when i interview.

Actually, that's not entirely true. As a matter of fact, none of the fellows chosen for next year's program are from the UCLA at all.
 
DigableCat said:
Actually, that's not entirely true. As a matter of fact, none of the fellows chosen for next year's program are from the UCLA at all.

Really? I heard there was only 1 ucla guy applied in pain (nobody else was interested) and they took him.
 
aspiring_painMD said:
Really? I heard there was only 1 ucla guy applied in pain (nobody else was interested) and they took him.

Decided instead to do priv pract, one other doing a sports&spine fellowship. The rest of residents: priv prac. Seems not everyone wants to do pain. It's not for everyone. Cool procedures...tough population.
 
Someone I know is actually going to be one of the fellows at UCLA next year. He is not from UCLA, rather he is coming from Baylor.

By the way, maybe we should start a thread of fellowship plans for current residents. It would be an interesting way to share and compare information as well as a resource for PGY-2 and PGY-3 residents.
 
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With regard to anesthesiology based pain programs, I am getting the feeling that many of them do not know the unofficial rankings of PM&R programs. For instance, if you take a name school such as U Penn or Columbia/Cornell, would an anesthesiology program know whether these program have less of reputation than Northwestern or UMDNJ in the PM&R world. Based upon my discussion with others, I feel as though many simply look more at the prestige of the school/institution affiliated with the program. Also, it seems as though residents from these programs have matched very well in anesthesiology pain programs.

Anyone else's thoughts on this matter would be greatly helpful.
 
aspiring_painMD said:
With regard to anesthesiology based pain programs, I am getting the feeling that many of them do not know the unofficial rankings of PM&R programs. For instance, if you take a name school such as U Penn or Columbia/Cornell, would an anesthesiology program know whether these program have less of reputation than Northwestern or UMDNJ in the PM&R world. Based upon my discussion with others, I feel as though many simply look more at the prestige of the school/institution affiliated with the program. Also, it seems as though residents from these programs have matched very well in anesthesiology pain programs.

Anyone else's thoughts on this matter would be greatly helpful.

You are absolutely correct sir!

The anesthesia programs have NO CLUE about the "rankings" of the PM&R residency programs. The programs that invited me for an interview were impressed by my institution (University of Michigan) but really knew nothing about the residency itself.

Fine with me! After all, this information is very esoteric even to those people going into PM&R residencies (hence the multiple residency "rank" threads on SDN).
 
Ligament said:
You are absolutely correct sir!

The anesthesia programs have NO CLUE about the "rankings" of the PM&R residency programs. The programs that invited me for an interview were impressed by my institution (University of Michigan) but really knew nothing about the residency itself.

Fine with me! After all, this information is very esoteric even to those people going into PM&R residencies (hence the multiple residency "rank" threads on SDN).

Ligament, thanks for the insight. Yeah it does seem the whole ranking of PM&R programs is very esoteric indeed. I have gone on 13 interviews now and the only school who say "look at how our hospital" ranks and pay attention to US News and Report are those in the top five or so. Every other program has stated that there residents get top notched training and they do not get ranked high b/c they aren't affiliated with a large free-standing IRF. Some programs like UW will even say they are the best 'hospital-based rehab facility,' or the UCLA residents insist that their training has improved since losing affiliation with Rancho Los Amigos b/c they now get more personal attention from private attendings.

I'm highly in favor of the argument of "go where you will best fit in and be happiest" rather than strict rankings. Of course I'm all for combining the best of both worlds if possible.
 
aspiring_painMD said:
With regard to anesthesiology based pain programs, I am getting the feeling that many of them do not know the unofficial rankings of PM&R programs. For instance, if you take a name school such as U Penn or Columbia/Cornell, would an anesthesiology program know whether these program have less of reputation than Northwestern or UMDNJ in the PM&R world. Based upon my discussion with others, I feel as though many simply look more at the prestige of the school/institution affiliated with the program. Also, it seems as though residents from these programs have matched very well in anesthesiology pain programs.

Anyone else's thoughts on this matter would be greatly helpful.

You are absolutely correct sir!

The anesthesia programs have NO CLUE about the "rankings" of the PM&R residency programs. The programs that invited me for an interview were impressed by my institution (University of Michigan) but really knew nothing about the residency itself.

Fine with me! After all, this information is very esoteric even to those people going into PM&R residencies (hence the multiple residency "rank" threads on SDN).
 
Agree with the above.

Went on a handful of Anesthesia pain interviews this year and felt their first impressions of me were reflective of their opinions of the anesthesia program at my institution in addition to asking me if I had rotated at the anesthsia pain clinic at my institution/commenting that they knew so-and-so (anesthesia pain program director) at my institution.

In my opinion, if your PM&R program has an Anesthesia pain fellowship at the same institution and they accept PM&R residents (more than just to be politically correct), rotate there and you're golden.

From what I've seen this year, most Physiatrists entering Anesthesia pain fellowships were from that same hospital or had close affiliation.

So, in summary, go to the PM&R program where you feel the most comfortable and the training best fits your career goals. It is your core specialty after all. All anesthesia pain fellowships will be open to Physiatrists in the next few years anyway (in theory) in accordance with the new ACGME guildlines.
 
Ligament said:
You are absolutely correct sir!

The anesthesia programs have NO CLUE about the "rankings" of the PM&R residency programs. The programs that invited me for an interview were impressed by my institution (University of Michigan) but really knew nothing about the residency itself.

Fine with me! After all, this information is very esoteric even to those people going into PM&R residencies (hence the multiple residency "rank" threads on SDN).


I heard this before and it makes complete sense. If you go to a nationally recognized hospital and are applying for non-PMnR based pain or sports med fellowships this should help.

One can argue that when applying for an anesthesia pain fellowship as a Penn graduate, you would have a better chance then a UMDNJ candidate (in the non-PMnR field) - given that you both have published equally and are equal candidates.
 
Disciple said:
All anesthesia pain fellowships will be open to Physiatrists in the next few years anyway (in theory) in accordance with the new ACGME guildlines.

As pain management becomes more and more popular, anesthesiology programs will be even less inclined to accept PM&R residents. Think about it - there is a natural tendency to take care of your own. Not to mention the fact that anesthesia and pain management go hand in hand - this is not the case with PM&R.

If your career goal is pain management, an anesthesiology residency is the golden road.
 
DrRobert said:
Not to mention the fact that anesthesia and pain management go hand in hand - this is not the case with PM&R.


What crack are you smoking? Cause I would like a hit. :laugh:

PM&R residency and Pain Management experience...this is without the golden injections some people are so fond of.

Chronic low back pain management
Acute musculoskeletal Injuries(neck/shoulder/elbow/hand/hip/knee/ankle)
Stroke pain(central and MSK)
Spinal Cord Injury neuropathic pain
Amputee Neuropathic Pain
General Acute Post-Operative Pain on Inpatient Unit

I could go on...but why? I think I've proven my point. Go sell crazy elsewhere, no one is buying it here.
 
I'm just stating the obvious. Pain management is an anesthesiology-dominated field and will only continue to be more so in the future. The only way to lessen anesthesia's influence on the field would be to make pain management its own specialty/residency.
 
As much as I might disagree with the tone of DrRobert's post, I have to agree in some part to his statement. Some anesthesiology folks tend to think that Pain management is their sole domain, one that they are "altruistically" sharing with physiatrists and neurologists. I agree that as the anesthesiology job market softens more residents will find fellowship more attractive thereby increasing non-anesthesia competition for anesthesia fellowships, particulary in programs that are not neccesarily married to the idea of accepting physiatrists and neurologists. Also, the amount of accredited PM&R pain fellowships does not seem likely to double or triple anytime soon (I am sure others would be more qualified to comment on this though) potentially leaving many qualified physiatrists without training positions.

On the other hand, I also agree with DigableCat as well as many other posts on this site with their comments regarding the suitability of physiatrist to practice pain medicine. In spite of physiatrists' physical examination skills, patient interaction skills, and extensive training in dealing with patients in pain during residency overcoming the barreirs of turf-wars will be difficult without some fundamental reorganization of pain medicine training. Maybe someone else can further elucidate the current discussion regarding the creation of a pain medicine residency versus creating a truly multi-disciplinary pain fellowship training experience.
 
mehul_25 said:
As much as I might disagree with the tone of DrRobert's post, I have to agree in some part to his statement. Some anesthesiology folks tend to think that Pain management is their sole domain, one that they are "altruistically" sharing with physiatrists and neurologists. I agree that as the anesthesiology job market softens more residents will find fellowship more attractive thereby increasing non-anesthesia competition for anesthesia fellowships, particulary in programs that are not neccesarily married to the idea of accepting physiatrists and neurologists. Also, the amount of accredited PM&R pain fellowships does not seem likely to double or triple anytime soon (I am sure others would be more qualified to comment on this though) potentially leaving many qualified physiatrists without training positions.

On the other hand, I also agree with DigableCat as well as many other posts on this site with their comments regarding the suitability of physiatrist to practice pain medicine. In spite of physiatrists' physical examination skills, patient interaction skills, and extensive training in dealing with patients in pain during residency overcoming the barreirs of turf-wars will be difficult without some fundamental reorganization of pain medicine training. Maybe someone else can further elucidate the current discussion regarding the creation of a pain medicine residency versus creating a truly multi-disciplinary pain fellowship training experience.


There is a drive to integrate all specialties into pain fellowships (anes, pm&r, neuro, psych). This is obviously not the case right now, but now they are requiring institutions that previously had dual pain programs to combine into one. I think more physiatrists are going to enter pain medicine, as this is the patient population they deal with in their every day practice. I think anesth based fellowship programs are mixed: many of them recognize that PM&R docs know how to do a physical exam and work up of pain, but want to favor their own residents heavily. Anesthesiologist do learn regional blocks during residency, although many PM&R residents also get hands on experience in their electives during residency. I know many Emory PM&R residents who stated they pushed 100+ fluro guided epidural injections during their training, which is astounding.

Hopefully, we will see a true integration of pain medicine and all 4 specialties will be represented.
 
DrRobert said:
As pain management becomes more and more popular, anesthesiology programs will be even less inclined to accept PM&R residents. Think about it - there is a natural tendency to take care of your own. Not to mention the fact that anesthesia and pain management go hand in hand - this is not the case with PM&R.

If your career goal is pain management, an anesthesiology residency is the golden road.


Agree with your first two statements. That is why I said "in theory".

Strongly disagree with the third.
 
Though I cannot speak for anybody else. In my opinion our leadership has made a mistake in the concessions they have made regarding pain medicine training. Under new ACGME guildlines (correct me if I'm wrong), there will be one pain fellowship per institution with faculty representation of 2 or 3 of 4 core specialties (Anesthesia, PM&R, Neurology, Psyche). Rotations in each of these four disciplines is mandatory and the sponsoring institution must house residency programs for 2 of the aformentioned core specialties. Supposedly, each fellowship will be held accountable to these standards at their next ACGME site review. This should open doors for Physiatrists and Neurologists at all programs. After all, what kind of Physiatrist or Neurologist is going to agree to be on a pain faculty for a fellowship that does not accept residents from their specialty? Of course this sounds good "in theory", but we all know about politics in medicine. On the flip side, accreditation of any new PM&R pain fellowships will now be extremely difficult and may stop completely. Physiatric fellowship directors now attempting to get their fellowships accredited must find a hospital without a pain program and then fulfill these new requirements in addition to providing experience/exposure in pediatric pain, cancer pain, etc.

What will happen at institutions with two fellowships? Will they merge? Will spots get cut? From what I've seen, some programs are merging already, with Anesthesia keeping their spots and PM&R keeping their spots. So again, this does not help us.

So what I think will happen is that the growing number of Physiatrists able to practice pain medicine (something we possess almost all of the clinical tools for) will be effectively surpressed/contained, fluctuating on a year to year basis depending on the size of the applicant pool by Anesthesia.

For a number of years now, Physiatrists have been able to grandfather into ABMS certification through spine fellowships or practice. Anesthesia was able to do their fellowships, we were able to do ours. Certification was not a problem. Now that this has ended, give it ten years when there will be a rapidly growing number of non ABMS certified Physiatrists serving a whole lot of patients and there may be a huge problem. This is where I believe our leadership may have been a bit short sighted.

Another point of contention is that I believe we are unofficially forcing many of our new graduates primarily interested in advanced musculoskeletal medicine and non-operative spine care into "pain" fellowships, where a substantial amount of their one year fellowship (4-8 months) may be spent managing PCAs, inpt pain consults, palliative care, etc. While I believe that we Physiatrists make excellent pain docs, I do not believe that interventional procedures should be solely the domain of those who focus on the entire scope of "pain".

So, a solution I believe is feasible is to update our core ACGME PM&R residency guildlines. Make musculoskeletal/spine training more standardized and add a requirement for experience with/exposure to basic fluoroscopically guided spinal injections (Lumbar ESIs, MBBs, facets), perhaps even a required number of injections performed under supervision. Benefits I see from this would be three fold.

1. ACGME accrediatation would become a non-issue. All physiatrists would be ABMS certified to wield a needle (through our residency training).

2. Physiatric representation in pain medicine would be much larger and stronger through sheer numbers.

3. Those wishing to become comprehensive pain specialists would still have that option, through fellowship training. Those wanting to be musculoskeletal/spine specialists would not be forced into it, and would have the option and skills to enter musculoskeletal practice after their PGY-4 year (the difference between an attending and fellow salary are nothing to sneeze at!).

Once upon a time, someone thought EMGs important enough put a training requirement into PM&R residencies, then later with an attached number of studies (200). As a result, all Physiatrists should be able to perform basic electrodiagnostic studies and few feel a need for EMG fellowship training. Our represention in the world of electrodiagnostics is strong, and we by and large have a very collegial relationship with Neurology. Perhaps it is time to make the same change with interventional training. After all, Physiatry is already strongly represented within organizations such as ISIS, NASS and ASIPP. Now, I realize that such a change would probably need support from PASSOR and ultimately the leadership of the AAPMR, but if you think about it, many of the current leadership of PASSOR at its inception ('93) were at a stage in their careers where many of us on this forum are today. PASSOR's original goal was to make musculoskeletal medicine prominent within the specialty of PM&R. They have accomplished this. There is much more to do and now it's our turn to contribute.

Regarding a pain medicine residency, in the latest issue of the AAPM newsletter, it looks like they are actually going through with this, starting with the creation of a residency review comittee (RRC). Good for them, I hope they see this through however many years it takes.
 
Disciple said:
So, a solution I believe is feasible is to update our core ACGME PM&R residency guildlines. Make musculoskeletal/spine training more standardized and add a requirement for experience with/exposure to basic fluoroscopically guided spinal injections (Lumbar ESIs, MBBs, facets), perhaps even a required number of injections performed under supervision. Benefits I see from this would be three fold.

1. ACGME accrediatation would become a non-issue. All physiatrists would be ABMS certified to wield a needle (through our residency training).

2. Physiatric representation in pain medicine would be much larger and stronger through sheer numbers.

3. Those wishing to become comprehensive pain specialists would still have that option, through fellowship training. Those wanting to be musculoskeletal/spine specialists would not be forced into it, and would have the option and skills to enter musculoskeletal practice after their PGY-4 year (the difference between an attending and fellow salary are nothing to sneeze at!).

Disciple, that was an awesome post. Very insightful. The one thing beautiful about our field is that we are constantly shaping ourselves. As long as we continue to catch on to the latest demands of medical needs and keep up with the latest technology or techniques, I think the future is bright.

The injection requirement would be a great idea. Unfortunately, many PM&R residencies simply cannot have enough numbers to fulfill these procedures. There are some where you do get 50 or more injections as a resident, such as Baylor-Dallas or Emory, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Many residents in PM&R unfortunately will graduate without pushing any epidurals or facets. Even though the status quo does not permit this requirement, I feel PD's nationwide should move towards this goal. Firstly, its obvious that pain and MSK healthcare is growing with an aging population. The programs that do not recognize and try to incorporate these topics in their curriculum are going to be left behind. As more programs develop spine centers or sports clinics, the # of injections to be done will increase, and then the requirement can be implemented.

On the interview trail, I was glad to hear of at least several PD's when asked what changes do they plan to make in the next few years talk about creating these types of clinics if they weren't already at their school.
 
Disciple said:
So, a solution I believe is feasible is to update our core ACGME PM&R residency guildlines. Make musculoskeletal/spine training more standardized and add a requirement for experience with/exposure to basic fluoroscopically guided spinal injections (Lumbar ESIs, MBBs, facets), perhaps even a required number of injections performed under supervision. Benefits I see from this would be three fold.

1. ACGME accrediatation would become a non-issue. All physiatrists would be ABMS certified to wield a needle (through our residency training).

2. Physiatric representation in pain medicine would be much larger and stronger through sheer numbers.

3. Those wishing to become comprehensive pain specialists would still have that option, through fellowship training. Those wanting to be musculoskeletal/spine specialists would not be forced into it, and would have the option and skills to enter musculoskeletal practice after their PGY-4 year (the difference between an attending and fellow salary are nothing to sneeze at!).

Disciple, that was an awesome post. Very insightful. The one thing beautiful about our field is that we are constantly shaping ourselves. As long as we continue to catch on to the latest demands of medical needs and keep up with the latest technology or techniques, I think the future is bright.

The injection requirement would be a great idea. Unfortunately, many PM&R residencies simply cannot have enough numbers to fulfill these procedures. There are some where you do get 50 or more injections as a resident, such as Baylor-Dallas or Emory, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Many residents in PM&R unfortunately will graduate without pushing any epidurals or facets. Even though the status quo does not permit this requirement, I feel PD's nationwide should move towards this goal. Firstly, its obvious that pain and MSK healthcare is growing with an aging population. The programs that do not recognize and try to incorporate these topics in their curriculum are going to be left behind. As more programs develop spine centers or sports clinics, the # of injections to be done will increase, and then the requirement can be implemented.

On the interview trail, I was glad to hear of at least several PD's when asked what changes do they plan to make in the next few years talk about creating these types of clinics if they weren't already at their school.
 
excuse the tangent, but I think all our PGYIIIs have at least 100 flouro injections and the PGYIV's over that number.

tempperson said:
Disciple, that was an awesome post. Very insightful. The one thing beautiful about our field is that we are constantly shaping ourselves. As long as we continue to catch on to the latest demands of medical needs and keep up with the latest technology or techniques, I think the future is bright.

The injection requirement would be a great idea. Unfortunately, many PM&R residencies simply cannot have enough numbers to fulfill these procedures. There are some where you do get 50 or more injections as a resident, such as Baylor-Dallas or Emory, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Many residents in PM&R unfortunately will graduate without pushing any epidurals or facets. Even though the status quo does not permit this requirement, I feel PD's nationwide should move towards this goal. Firstly, its obvious that pain and MSK healthcare is growing with an aging population. The programs that do not recognize and try to incorporate these topics in their curriculum are going to be left behind. As more programs develop spine centers or sports clinics, the # of injections to be done will increase, and then the requirement can be implemented.

On the interview trail, I was glad to hear of at least several PD's when asked what changes do they plan to make in the next few years talk about creating these types of clinics if they weren't already at their school.
 
tempperson said:
Disciple, that was an awesome post. Very insightful. The one thing beautiful about our field is that we are constantly shaping ourselves. As long as we continue to catch on to the latest demands of medical needs and keep up with the latest technology or techniques, I think the future is bright.

The injection requirement would be a great idea. Unfortunately, many PM&R residencies simply cannot have enough numbers to fulfill these procedures. There are some where you do get 50 or more injections as a resident, such as Baylor-Dallas or Emory, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Many residents in PM&R unfortunately will graduate without pushing any epidurals or facets. Even though the status quo does not permit this requirement, I feel PD's nationwide should move towards this goal. Firstly, its obvious that pain and MSK healthcare is growing with an aging population. The programs that do not recognize and try to incorporate these topics in their curriculum are going to be left behind. As more programs develop spine centers or sports clinics, the # of injections to be done will increase, and then the requirement can be implemented.

On the interview trail, I was glad to hear of at least several PD's when asked what changes do they plan to make in the next few years talk about creating these types of clinics if they weren't already at their school.


I don't believe it's as much a lack of training resources as it is resistance/low priority within individual PM&R departments. I myself have worked with several attendings who are flat out against interventional physiatry. They see it as a "fad" that is incongruous with the foundations of rehabilitation medicine and one that will soon die out. I strongly disagree. What I think we may see in the next 10 yrs are Physiatrists with Advanced MSK skills (Advanced biomechanical/structural/kinesiologic evaluation), competence in the entire array of interventional techniques (including implantables and intradiscal/intravertebral interventions), and improved EMG interpretive abilities-all within a single practicioner. I have yet to see a Physiatrist with this skill set. The very best have 2 of 3. Should this happen, I think you will see Physiatrists become the gatekeepers of musculoskeletal pain within the medical community. As I see it, PM&R is definitely segregated. That is why PASSOR is planning to dissolve itself as a separate entity (to bring integration back into the AAPM&R). It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Let's face it. Most PM&R programs probably have an Anesthesia program at the same hospital. If PM&R/Anesthesia relations aren't so great at that instituition, surely they can find an interventional physiatrist or two to appoint as an adjunct clinical professor. Interventional physiatrists are everywhere nowadays. If you take a look at the jobs currently being offered in Physiatry, a large portion of them are looking for those with good musculoskeletal skills, and of those, a large portion want someone with at least basic needle skills. I myself am doing a fellowship next year to learn higher risk procedures, but it just seems counter intuitive that a fellowship would be needed to gain the skills necessary for the majority of jobs being offered Physiatrists these days.

For those attending the AAP in March, at the PDs conference there is going to be a lecture on how to add injection training into your curriculum-might generate some interesting discussion.
 
Ligament said:
excuse the tangent, but I think all our PGYIIIs have at least 100 flouro injections and the PGYIV's over that number.

That's phenomenal.

That's what we need, but everywhere.

Unfortunately, I don't see it happening unless interventional training becomes an official requirement.

I don't see why this can't happen. I mean isn't Joel Press the president of NASS and in line to be the next presdent of the AAPM&R? We have representation in pretty much every major pain organization. Physiatrists are flourishing in spine centers and pain groups across the country. PASSOR is busting at the seams with interventional physiatrists. We are soon going to have ABMS subspecialty certification in sports medicine.

It's just this ABMS "pain" thing that is troublesome.

I think it's about time for us to step up to the plate.
 
Disciple said:
I don't believe it's as much a lack of training resources as it is resistance within individual PM&R departments. I myself have worked with several attendings who are flat out against interventional physiatry. They see it as a "fad" that is incongruous with the foundations of rehabilitation medicine and one that will soon die out. I strongly disagree. What I think we may see in the next 10 yrs are Physiatrists with Advanced MSK skills (Advanced biomechanical/structural/kinesiologic evaluation), competence in the entire array of interventional techniques (including implantables and intradiscal/intravertebral interventions), and improved EMG interpretive abilities-all within a single practicioner. I have yet to see a Physiatrist with this skill set. The very best have 2 of 3. Should this happen, I think you will see Physiatrists become the gatekeepers of musculoskeletal pain within the medical community.

I think this stubbornness to accepting interventional physiatry is a unfortunate act of human nature. The "old school" will always be questioning and suspicious of any "new school" ideas, esp if there is still as of yet insufficient literature to prove these techniques. There is still a relatively small but growing literature on injections. IDET is sorta played out now. Implantable devices have very little literature although lots of people believe they have great promise (esp in spastic pts). RF ablation I think is really promising.

I think what's missing in the "old school" thinking is the desire to experiment and refine techniques until we get it right. Interventional cardiology initially faced great resistance when stents were being tried and GPIIBIIIA inhibitors were being introduced. Many CT surgeons felt it was ridiculous and they operated on many cases of angioplasty failures/complications. Well, look at how far the field has come over time, after many research dollars and hours invested. Unless you got 3 vessel dz or DM, PTCA is the way to go. Next interventional cardiology is tackling minimally invasive valve repair. I'm sure there are many doubting Thomas', but eventually when there's a will, there's a way.
 
Many of those opposed to interventional Physiatry are products of a different era, when there was no Musculoskeletal Physiatry or fluoroscopically guided spinal injections.

I think many of them see interventional Physiatry as some sort of perversion of the ideals of "Rehabilitation Medicine".

They just don't want us turning into a bunch of needle jockeys.

I can understand and respect that. Being a "needle jockey" has nothing to do with Physical Medicine or Rehabilitation.

However, you can't stop progress.

I mean, you don't see Anesthesia discouraging their residents from entering interventional pain do you?
 
I noticed that Yale, though a good name in general, is not a top anesthesia program and is relatively easy to get into in terms of step 1 scores. Does the same hold true for the pain fellowship at Yale? Is it also easy admission + albeit prestigious name in general? Do you think that's an ok trade off to make (lower reputation in field for easier admission to prestigious name in general)?
 
I think that pain fellowships have gotten more competitive in the last 10 years despite the declining reimbursement. Most anesthesia-based fellowships are more open to PM&R applicants than 10 or 15 years ago. Many of us helped blaze those trails.
 
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I think that pain fellowships have gotten more competitive in the last 10 years despite the declining reimbursement.

Most anesthesia-based fellowships are more open to PM&R applicants than 10 or 15 years ago. Many of us helped blaze those trails.

very true.

thank you.

I think the larger fellowship programs are more open to having a smattering of non-anesthesia fellows.

because they only "want" 1 or 2... they are looking for the ones they perceive as the strongest applicants.


they are also interested in what residents from other specialities can teach them. I got asked that at many interviews. I wouldn't recommend responding with, "a physical exam" unless you dont want to match :lol:
 
Emory graduates residents with over 400 neuraxial injections, and peripheral joints would be around half that or better. Also, for the last 4 years, every resident going into pain has matched into his/her top rank.
 
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