Best school form the BIG FOUR?

[iheartperfume]

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Ross, SGU, AUC, SABA

Which is the best from these four? I heard that Ross just accepts a lot of students and take their money and kick them out...and for SGU I heard they have clinical tutors that help you out...and they dont try to fail you out.....So can you rank these schools from best to worst

Also, can you rank these schools from most expensive to least expensive.

Thank you.

 

[hippocraticoath]

Ross, SGU, AUC, SABA

Which is the best from these four? I heard that Ross just accepts a lot of students and take their money and kick them out...and for SGU I heard they have clinical tutors that help you out...and they dont try to fail you out.....So can you rank these schools from best to worst

Also, can you rank these schools from most expensive to least expensive.

Thank you.

I heard St. James and Windsor are the best - they even put a student into an orthopedic residency in KY

 

[iheartperfume]

what?!?! All the threads indicate that sgu ross auc and saba are the top 4.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

what?!?! All the threads indicate that sgu ross auc and saba are the top 4.

SGU>AUC>Saba>Ross

I put SGU better than AUC because their clinical situation is much more solid.

---
In terms of price (Saba does not have federal loans)

SGU>AUC>Ross>Saba

 

[Raigon]

It's common sense that SGU is the best. That's the Caribbean equivalent of Harvard.

But I suppose most people will disagree, just like people think that John Hopkins or Wustl is as good or better as Harvard, Ross or SABA or AUC can be debated to be just as good as SGU.

But SGU has the best reputation. You have to admit to that much. As for whether it has the statistics to match its reputation, I think there's sufficient evidence in every year's match list.

And for the price, the poster above summed it up pretty nicely.

 

[RussianJoo]

SGU is the oldest, has the most clinical spots, is the only one that can do rotations in NJ, Is the best known, because of media exposure, has the best historically step1 pass rate accroding to a study, the hardest to get into, but is also the most expensive.

 

[iheartperfume]

SGU>AUC>Saba>Ross

I put SGU better than AUC because their clinical situation is much more solid.

---
In terms of price (Saba does not have federal loans)

SGU>AUC>Ross>Saba

Thanks for all the responses.I really appreciate it. So after SGU, which school do you guys thing is 2nd best? Why did you place AUC as second?

 

[Aphtalyfe]

Thanks for all the responses.I really appreciate it. So after SGU, which school do you guys thing is 2nd best? Why did you place AUC as second?

Quality of education at SGU and AUC is probably about the same. AUC also has a good match list, but their clinicals are not as organized as SGU.

AUC has smaller class sizes than Ross. With a 93% current first time pass rate on Step 1.

 

[coffeebythelake]

It's common sense that SGU is the best. That's the Caribbean equivalent of Harvard.

i laughed at this.

 

[iheartperfume]

its crazy bc everytime i ask someone from our school which is the best caribbean school they are quick to say "ROSS"

 

[AustinMD]

it's not even debatable that sgu is the best of all the caribbean schools. the rest shake out like this: ross>auc>saba. whoever is trying to convince you that auc is superior to ross is blowing smoke up your butt and is a shill for the place. i don't know about price, but i'm pretty sure sgu is far and away the most expensive. you get what you pay for.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

it's not even debatable that sgu is the best of all the caribbean schools. the rest shake out like this: ross>auc>saba. whoever is trying to convince you that auc is superior to ross is blowing smoke up your butt and is a shill for the place. i don't know about price, but i'm pretty sure sgu is far and away the most expensive. you get what you pay for.

Ross has a 30.6% 4-year graduation rate. With only 66% finishing in 6 years. They take in more students than can fit in their lecture halls. They are not allowed to do shelf exams because of cheating a few years ago. They are under investigation by the federal gov because of title 4 federal loan issues.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

 

[AustinMD]

Ross has a 30.6% 4-year graduation rate. With only 66% finishing in 6 years. They take in more students than can fit in their lecture halls. They are not allowed to do shelf exams because of cheating a few years ago. They are under investigation by the federal gov because of title 4 federal loan issues.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

sorry, but prestige is the most important thing when coming from the caribbean. prestige is what will get you a residency spot when someone from Trinity Univ of the caribbean or some other startup caribbean school comes home empty handed after the match. and when you're talking prestige it goes like this:

sgu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ross>>>auc>saba

this really isn't up for debate. it's fact.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

sorry, but prestige is the most important thing when coming from the caribbean. prestige is what will get you a residency spot when someone from Trinity Univ of the caribbean or some other startup caribbean school comes home empty handed after the match. and when you're talking prestige it goes like this:

sgu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ross>>>auc>saba

this really isn't up for debate. it's fact.

Usually fact has irrefutable or at least substantial evidence. Where is yours?

 

[AustinMD]

Usually fact has irrefutable or at least substantial evidence. Where is yours?

the historical match lists for each of the "big 4". thanks for playing. next.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

the historical match lists for each of the "big 4". thanks for playing. next.

Um perhaps you should check again? All 4 schools have matches into very good programs. With SABA and AUC graduating 1/2 to 1/4 the number of SGU and Ross.

 

[tracheatoedoc]

So when you apply to residency programs, do you think PDs will say 'wow this guy went to SGU in the Caribbean'?

The word 'prestige' doesn't apply. Well known with a track record is all you get. Schools that people have never heard of will alarm them. Generally people have heard of SGU, ROSS, and AUC.

 

[AKMD_1984]

carib schools are easy to get into, but once you are in...you make your own future.

i attended saba univ. school of medicine, started in jan ' 07...and i am starting my anesthesia residency in a univ. program this july. i pulled my graduation by 1 year as well

anesthesia was very competitive, 96% of spots were filled by AMGs...i was one of that 4%.

the point is, if you attend a carib school [and im talking about the above 4, the rest are a joke...maybe MUA comes close to top 4]...basically, you better make sure to have your head in the game from day 1...

do not even think about getting less than 230 on either steps...that should not be in your head...

with some luck, a LOT of hard work and dedication, a second chance school, like the ones listed above will yield you a residency spot...and when you look back...and think about how horrible organic chem was, and how difficult some pre medical courses were...and how bi**h of an exam the MCAT is...you thank your Lord for being a resident and having a stable future 🙂

case in point: carib is an option, but it aint no cake walk.

 

[RussianJoo]

carib schools are easy to get into, but once you are in...you make your own future.

i attended saba univ. school of medicine, started in jan ' 07...and i am starting my anesthesia residency in a univ. program this july. i pulled my graduation by 1 year as well

anesthesia was very competitive, 96% of spots were filled by AMGs...i was one of that 4%.

the point is, if you attend a carib school [and im talking about the above 4, the rest are a joke...maybe MUA comes close to top 4]...basically, you better make sure to have your head in the game from day 1...

do not even think about getting less than 230 on either steps...that should not be in your head...

with some luck, a LOT of hard work and dedication, a second chance school, like the ones listed above will yield you a residency spot...and when you look back...and think about how horrible organic chem was, and how difficult some pre medical courses were...and how bi**h of an exam the MCAT is...you thank your Lord for being a resident and having a stable future 🙂

case in point: carib is an option, but it aint no cake walk.

I disagree a little with this. I to went to a carib school, didn't do well down there at all and had a few major slip ups, my step1 was slightly under 230, step2 slightly over 230. I too matched in anesthesia at a University program one of my top choices. I haven't met a single person from my school who applied to anesthesia and didn't match into it. one guy even had 1 interview for anesthesia and ended up matching. Also there were plenty of anesthesia spots open for the scramble, as you know.

Just because mostly US grads matched into this specialty doesn't mean it was competitive it just means that not too many IMGs want to go into it. Anesthesia has only recently became a popular field, but in the past close to 50% of their residencies were unfilled and if anyone couldn't get into any other residency they would go into anesthesia. When compared to other specialties with the same average step scores anesthesia had 3 times more open spots for the scramble than any of them, heck they had about the same number of open spots for the scramble as IM.


It's awesome that you were able to eventually get a spot in the specialty you wanted and that you were able to take a year off med school is AMAZING, and it's true that not too many people can say that they got into the specialty of their choice, but saying anesthesia is very competitive just isn't true. And if someone wants to get into IM, Peds, FP, Psych, Pathology, or Neuro it's even easier. people from carib schools with sub 200 step scores match into those specialties every year.

I do agree that if anyone is considering going to the carib to only go to one of the big 4.

and med school everywhere is very hard.. it's just that people with lower scores have slightly more opportunities if they came from a US school.

 

[AKMD_1984]

I disagree a little with this. I to went to a carib school, didn't do well down there at all and had a few major slip ups, my step1 was slightly under 230, step2 slightly over 230. I too matched in anesthesia at a University program one of my top choices. I haven't met a single person from my school who applied to anesthesia and didn't match into it. one guy even had 1 interview for anesthesia and ended up matching. Also there were plenty of anesthesia spots open for the scramble, as you know.

Just because mostly US grads matched into this specialty doesn't mean it was competitive it just means that not too many IMGs want to go into it. Anesthesia has only recently became a popular field, but in the past close to 50% of their residencies were unfilled and if anyone couldn't get into any other residency they would go into anesthesia. When compared to other specialties with the same average step scores anesthesia had 3 times more open spots for the scramble than any of them, heck they had about the same number of open spots for the scramble as IM.


It's awesome that you were able to eventually get a spot in the specialty you wanted and that you were able to take a year off med school is AMAZING, and it's true that not too many people can say that they got into the specialty of their choice, but saying anesthesia is very competitive just isn't true. And if someone wants to get into IM, Peds, FP, Psych, Pathology, or Neuro it's even easier. people from carib schools with sub 200 step scores match into those specialties every year.

I do agree that if anyone is considering going to the carib to only go to one of the big 4.

and med school everywhere is very hard.. it's just that people with lower scores have slightly more opportunities if they came from a US school.

you matched at detroit medical center right?...that has lost its affiliation with wayne state univ...they will be hiring new staff, etc...

they sent out that email in regards to that back in feb...not that it matters, but detroit wayne state is a very IMG friendly anesthesia program.

anesthesia did infact have a lot of spots available for scramble, but that does not indicate its lack of competitiveness. first of all, spots were available for a variety of reasons. mainly, the programs sought very qualified appplicants and did not have extensive rank order lists. there are two personal evidences that support this:
1) darkmansaad didnt match despite having ridiculous scores. i know he applied to top tier programs, but he was way ahead of the average...by about 20 pts.
2) the program i interviewed at, told me that they will rank me top 20 after i went for a second visit. while on the interview, i asked the residentabout historical ranking of applicants, and at what number do they fill up their roster. i.e. for 10 spots in that program, the program who ranked even an applicant #30 would get a spot granted that #30 ranked that program #1 choice. i didnt match - go figure.

the above is speculation, but i am quite certain that when the actual data comes out, it will support the above theories. the program i eventually scrambled into, also said that this the first year they have had to scramble...because they wanted applicants which were wanted by other programs. programs out competed themselves, and because of their wish to want the top candidates only, a lot of programs went unfilled.

SUNY downstate had 11 spots for anestehsia left...that was a MAJOR f**k up. i have no idea how that happened...that will have to be investigated. because no way in hell you receieve thousands of applications, and cant fill your 15 spots.

as for other specialties...it IS infact easier...however, you have to realize that 44% of IMGs and only 47% of US IMGs matched!

that is an astonishing number.

meaning that if it was between me and you for anesthesia, and both of us had same scores, GPA, letters...you would match and i wouldnt, merely based on stats! and lets remember, i dont know of any programs that offer pre-matching in anesthesia! IM, FP, psych, PEDs routinely offer pre matches...so that % is removed, and we are talking about the 44% on match day...

these stats are horrifying and it will get worse every year.

lastly, avg. step 1 for anesthesia is much higher than EM and surgery...agree that its not the same as rads...i wont even go into derm and optho and orthop...those are frankly unattainable.

 

[hobofunk]

lastly, avg. step 1 for anesthesia is much higher than EM and surgery...agree that its not the same as rads...i wont even go into derm and optho and orthop...those are frankly unattainable.

Where are you getting this? Reading charting outcomes for 2009:

average step I score for US Seniors matched into gas, EM, gen surg are 224, 222, 224 respectively. For independents it's 226, 219, 223. Definitely not "much higher."

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

 

[AKMD_1984]

Where are you getting this? Reading charting outcomes for 2009:

average step I score for US Seniors matched into gas, EM, gen surg are 224, 222, 224 respectively. For independents it's 226, 219, 223. Definitely not "much higher."

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

ummm, compare slide 24 and 67...in regards to USMLE Step 1 score and probability of matching for INDEPENDANT APPLICANTS, since carib grads are NOT U.S. grads.

EM - 50% matched, with a score 212ish...look at the blue line where it crosses the 50% mark on y axis.

Anesthesia - 50% matched, with a score of 230 ish...again look at the blue line.

 

[hobofunk]

ummm, compare slide 24 and 67...in regards to USMLE Step 1 score and probability of matching for INDEPENDANT APPLICANTS, since carib grads are NOT U.S. grads.

EM - 50% matched, with a score 212ish...look at the blue line where it crosses the 50% mark on y axis.

Anesthesia - 50% matched, with a score of 230 ish...again look at the blue line.

ummm, you're reading those charts wrong. It only denotes the probability of matching, i.e. it's more accurate to say if you got a score of 230 as an independent applicant you had a 50% chance of matching gas in 2009. It does NOT mean that 50% matched with a score of 230. True, the charts you refer to do speak somewhat towards their competitiveness, but you said "avg. step 1 for anesthesia is much higher than EM and surgery", which, according to the matched averages for independent applicants, is simply false. I also notice you conveniently left the general surgery probability curve out.

You also mentioned earlier that "96% of [gas] spots were filled by AMGs" which is also incorrect. 78.5% were U.S. seniors for PGY-1, 71.4% for PGY-2 spots. Read here http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2010.pdf

Like RussianJoo mentioned, Anesthesia is not as competitive as you're making it out to be. Sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[RussianJoo]

you matched at detroit medical center right?...that has lost its affiliation with wayne state univ...they will be hiring new staff, etc...

they sent out that email in regards to that back in feb...not that it matters, but detroit wayne state is a very IMG friendly anesthesia program.

anesthesia did infact have a lot of spots available for scramble, but that does not indicate its lack of competitiveness. first of all, spots were available for a variety of reasons. mainly, the programs sought very qualified appplicants and did not have extensive rank order lists. there are two personal evidences that support this:
1) darkmansaad didnt match despite having ridiculous scores. i know he applied to top tier programs, but he was way ahead of the average...by about 20 pts.
2) the program i interviewed at, told me that they will rank me top 20 after i went for a second visit. while on the interview, i asked the residentabout historical ranking of applicants, and at what number do they fill up their roster. i.e. for 10 spots in that program, the program who ranked even an applicant #30 would get a spot granted that #30 ranked that program #1 choice. i didnt match - go figure.

the above is speculation, but i am quite certain that when the actual data comes out, it will support the above theories. the program i eventually scrambled into, also said that this the first year they have had to scramble...because they wanted applicants which were wanted by other programs. programs out competed themselves, and because of their wish to want the top candidates only, a lot of programs went unfilled.

SUNY downstate had 11 spots for anestehsia left...that was a MAJOR f**k up. i have no idea how that happened...that will have to be investigated. because no way in hell you receieve thousands of applications, and cant fill your 15 spots.

as for other specialties...it IS infact easier...however, you have to realize that 44% of IMGs and only 47% of US IMGs matched!

that is an astonishing number.

meaning that if it was between me and you for anesthesia, and both of us had same scores, GPA, letters...you would match and i wouldnt, merely based on stats! and lets remember, i dont know of any programs that offer pre-matching in anesthesia! IM, FP, psych, PEDs routinely offer pre matches...so that % is removed, and we are talking about the 44% on match day...

these stats are horrifying and it will get worse every year.

lastly, avg. step 1 for anesthesia is much higher than EM and surgery...agree that its not the same as rads...i wont even go into derm and optho and orthop...those are frankly unattainable.

You scrambled into U of Toledo right? I personally felt that Detroit's program was much stronger and has a pain fellowship in house. Toledo's hospital was empty when I toured there on a monday, but that's besides the point. I even though DMC isn't affiliated with wayne state anymore, my diploma will still say wayne state on it and the anesthesia group that's running the program isn't going anywhere, new faculty hires might be fore other specialties? I ranked Toledo at the bottom of my list so maybe i would have matched there i don't know, the faculty were great though.

Yes Wayne State is very IMG friendly, especially SGU friendly, however, the 2 that matched at U of Toledo were also IMGs, so I think U of Toledo is IMG friendly as well.

As for the match in general I feel that I was incredibly lucky to have matched at all.

Darkman didn't match because he didn't rank half the programs he interviewed at, he said so himself on valuemd. he didn't want to simply match he wanted to be in a great program and i don't blame him he has great scores.

Programs were picky this year that's correct, and even more so for SUNY Downstate, they rejected me and a friend who had considerably better stats than me. The 47% match rate is pretty normal for US-IMGs according to ECFMG more US-IMGs matched this year than last year and this trend has been this way for the last 7 years in a row, however about 0.5% less US-IMGs matched this, which just means that more people applied.

yes it will continue to get tougher and has been getting tougher each year, I personally think that anesthesia is on the same competitiveness level as EM and Gen Surg, this is my opinion, maybe I am down playing it. hey I wish anesthesia was the most competitive specialty out there, we're both in it and that would be an awesome ego booster, however it isn't so.

Like I said before the fact that we were able work in the specialty that we wanted and didn't have to settle for a specialty that we didn't want to go into but had no choice is awesome, but patting us on the back and saying how amazing we are i won't do cause frankly an average US grad wouldn't even think about applying to our programs. That doesn't mean we'll get poor training it just means we'll have to work harder and possibly work more on hour own to get better training.

good luck in your residency.

 

[tarmogorf]

Well...we somehow miraculously got a guy into derm at University of Toronto...
SGU? Derm? What?

 

[TopsyKrett]

Quality of education at SGU and AUC is probably about the same. AUC also has a good match list, but their clinicals are not as organized as SGU.

AUC has smaller class sizes than Ross. With a 93% current first time pass rate on Step 1.

Actually, our dean recently told us it's up to 95% now.

 

[goosew]

Actually, our dean recently told us it's up to 95% now.

Make sure that the numbers are "kosher". I remember when SGU started this BS

I remember when I first entered SGU they boasted a 97% Step1 first time pass rate

(in small writing, they mentioned it was over 3 graduating classes)


Last I heard, the are no boasting a 97-8% Step1 first time pass rate

(in small writing, they are now saying it's over 6-8 graduating classes)

Easier to boast those numbers when you take into account the larger sample size you'll be using... (thereby 1-2 bad years doesn't affect the mean as much).

 

[docbill]

Make sure that the numbers are "kosher". I remember when SGU started this BS

I remember when I first entered SGU they boasted a 97% Step1 first time pass rate

(in small writing, they mentioned it was over 3 graduating classes)


Last I heard, the are no boasting a 97-8% Step1 first time pass rate

(in small writing, they are now saying it's over 6-8 graduating classes)

Easier to boast those numbers when you take into account the larger sample size you'll be using... (thereby 1-2 bad years doesn't affect the mean as much).

Well it is usually data that is released by ECFMG... and possibly only released every 3 years or so.

There should be no question about the need to go to the better international medical schools when trying to get a better residency. Reputation of the school does matter in 1 important situation. If they previously had graduates from that school in their residency program it makes it easier to welcome future applicants. Again this is hit and miss. Schools like SGU have the best reputation, but it doesn't mean that every now and then there is a horrible student who does such a poor job that the residency program is turned off all together from repeating that mistake.