Beware! The crap continues 4th year...

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Pili

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Not as bad as 3rd year, but still told by a resident this morning that my place is just to say OK...to his crappy diagnosis. I answered back, as my rank list is finalized (big difference with 3rd year). My answer was: isn't this supposed to be a collegial, learning environment? His response: go to the fellow that will evaluate us and try to ruin my reputation/grade with lies/exaggerations/misrepresentations. The result: the fellow giving me a friendly lecture/advice as if by now I did not know the rules of the game! Meanwhile the consulting specialty team confirmed my dx 2 hours later. Watch out, in a few years we will all be attendings! And where will that resident hide then when he sees the students that he has attempted (unsuccessfully) to screw over?
 
I feel your pain. Plus, how frustrating is it to have gone all this time and not even be able to order a CBC?

Soon it will all be over!
 
Hi all... yeah, I will sort of agree that as a 3rd year we are at the bottom of the food chain, but from my experience as a 4th year student, we get more respect and responsibility (sometimes, not all the time), and it's less pressure than before because now we know much more than when we started. Plus, I think we've gotten used to the system now, and so this is the time to enjoy yourself as much as possible, because in a few months residency will start, and then we won't have the luxury of being a student anymore.

Basically, 4th year is more fun, in my opinion. Enjoy while it lasts! All the best...
 
I just agree with them and give their diagnosis as my diagnosis - but then I slip what I REALLY think it is in the differential. That way they know you're thinking about it, and you don't give your resident the total impression they're totally off base. Some people may think that's the cop out way, but in the reverse situation, when I give a wrong diagnosis, I learn a lot better when the attending.resident doesn't make me feel like a jackass by saying, "WRONG! HOW could you think that?" (and I DID get that, by a psych attengin who was famous for that) rather than, "THat's a good thought but what about..." For some reason the internal voice in response to the former makes it hard to learn while it's screaming, "A**hole! You A**HOLE!!" over and over again...

But 4th year is totally chill - you do a lot more orders and discharges and they want more treatment plans, but I swear I barely have to study ...I think my brain is atrophying...
 
4th year is better than 3rd year. I think its awesome to see how you evolve and grow as a student into 4th year. You are so right about the game and now we know the game, we know how to play!! But let me throw my personal 4th year experience in.

As a 4th year sub-I, I was doing it all. I was doing it well. My pts were well taken care of, but there was this resident. This resident that always wanted me to know how much smarter they were than me. A resident that took your ideas and made them their own. A resident that talked about the attending when they walked out the door like dogs. A resident that would talk about the students behind their backs to other students and residents. A resident that did not want students to speak unless spoken too. A resident that knew diddly squat about medicine or anything else for that matter. We could call her demon resident or Resident B. So one day I am entering discharge orders for a pt, like I had done so many times before on this rotation. I was told by resident A to do the d/c orders this way, and so I was off. I completed my work and was asking resident B (covering for resident A), to sign my orders so the pt could get home. Resident B then tells me to go do this scutwork and that she would look over the orders. When I returned from my beloved trek into the rectum, I noticed that my orders had not been signed and where were they??? Resident B lets me know that I had done the D/C orders (to which I was told exactly how to do by resident A) so terribly wrong that she deleted them for me to write all again ( A SO CALLED LEARNING EXPERIENCE!!!) correctly. So I politely tell Resident B that I thought this was inappropriate and not teaching anything to me. Why did Resident B not sit down and explain why the orders that her friend Resident A had told me to write were so wrong and then I would have corrected them again. Why have me write all the d/c planning, note, and orders again? Resident B thought I was stepping on her leadership! Resident B did not like this so she tells attending, other residents, and students that I am "combative and assertive." Resident B with Resident A call me to meeting and tell me that I am being "demoted to regular student from Sub-I." I politely tell them I disagree but will honor their wishes (p.s. regular students work lots less than Sub-I's). I then find out Resident B contacts my school about this trying to find out had this happened before and trying to get me in trouble. The student coordinator politely tells her I am one of the best students and had gotten honors on clinical rotations and that this had never happened before (student coordinator called me and told me of this). Needless to say this really Peaved me!! I then go to Chief Resident, program director, attending and tell them that I have a residency interview at this institution but that I have decided to cancel my interview because this place "sucks". If they have residents like this, I don't want to be here. Once I said that, I understood the power of 4th year. After that, I was apologized to, taken off my service and put on another that I picked out with my full Sub-I "powers" fully reinstituted, taken to lunch, hugged by program director, and I lived happily ever after.
P.S. I later found out from other residents that Resident B had done this to other students, as well as an intern that had to repeat a month because Resident B lied on them.
So to make a long story short, As a 4th year you have power because your school and other schools need good residents. They realize you are about to be a resident and you are worth $90,000 minus residency pay to them. So you have some pull. Don't forget it and enjoy your 4th year.
And to Resident B, I hope her life is full of many rectals and she gets c diff from now until eternity.
 
I'm in the middle of my third year and I wish my only problem was disagreeing with my residents' dxs. I'm on medicine right now having to listen to my resident constantly tell me how bad her third year of medical school was, and how much the students on my rotation have it better than she did. If she has me do one more manual rectal disimpaction just to prove her point I'm going to lose it! I hope you guys are right and fourth year gets much better. When I signed up for medical school I new it would be a long road with long hours, etc etc, but I didn't know it would at times be the equivalent to ritualized hazing. I feel like I'm back in my pledge year of college.
 
what is the difference between a sub-intern and a regular 4th yr medical student doing a clinical rotation?
 
I think it goes without saying that everyone's experience will be different depending on what hospital they are rotating at. However, we gotta learn to deal with the good and the bad. By the way, that story about resident 'B' is crazy, what a loser she is. I'm glad you got that sorted out.
 
AF_PedsBoy said:
I just agree with them and give their diagnosis as my diagnosis - but then I slip what I REALLY think it is in the differential. That way they know you're thinking about it, and you don't give your resident the total impression they're totally off base. Some people may think that's the cop out way, but in the reverse situation, when I give a wrong diagnosis, I learn a lot better when the attending.resident doesn't make me feel like a jackass by saying, "WRONG! HOW could you think that?" (and I DID get that, by a psych attengin who was famous for that) rather than, "THat's a good thought but what about..." For some reason the internal voice in response to the former makes it hard to learn while it's screaming, "A**hole! You A**HOLE!!" over and over again...

But 4th year is totally chill - you do a lot more orders and discharges and they want more treatment plans, but I swear I barely have to study ...I think my brain is atrophying...
Mind, I did not argue his diagnosis, just suggested an alternative in a collegial tone. He simply did not tolerate any student, 3rd or 4th year, to suggest any diagnoses, period, even though he is a mediocre 2nd year surgery resident and this was an IM issue. In his mind, students are there to fetch charts, period.
 
Doc_Thks_JC said:
4th year is better than 3rd year. I think its awesome to see how you evolve and grow as a student into 4th year. You are so right about the game and now we know the game, we know how to play!! But let me throw my personal 4th year experience in.

As a 4th year sub-I, I was doing it all. I was doing it well. My pts were well taken care of, but there was this resident. This resident that always wanted me to know how much smarter they were than me. A resident that took your ideas and made them their own. A resident that talked about the attending when they walked out the door like dogs. A resident that would talk about the students behind their backs to other students and residents. A resident that did not want students to speak unless spoken too. A resident that knew diddly squat about medicine or anything else for that matter. We could call her demon resident or Resident B. So one day I am entering discharge orders for a pt, like I had done so many times before on this rotation. I was told by resident A to do the d/c orders this way, and so I was off. I completed my work and was asking resident B (covering for resident A), to sign my orders so the pt could get home. Resident B then tells me to go do this scutwork and that she would look over the orders. When I returned from my beloved trek into the rectum, I noticed that my orders had not been signed and where were they??? Resident B lets me know that I had done the D/C orders (to which I was told exactly how to do by resident A) so terribly wrong that she deleted them for me to write all again ( A SO CALLED LEARNING EXPERIENCE!!!) correctly. So I politely tell Resident B that I thought this was inappropriate and not teaching anything to me. Why did Resident B not sit down and explain why the orders that her friend Resident A had told me to write were so wrong and then I would have corrected them again. Why have me write all the d/c planning, note, and orders again? Resident B thought I was stepping on her leadership! Resident B did not like this so she tells attending, other residents, and students that I am "combative and assertive." Resident B with Resident A call me to meeting and tell me that I am being "demoted to regular student from Sub-I." I politely tell them I disagree but will honor their wishes (p.s. regular students work lots less than Sub-I's). I then find out Resident B contacts my school about this trying to find out had this happened before and trying to get me in trouble. The student coordinator politely tells her I am one of the best students and had gotten honors on clinical rotations and that this had never happened before (student coordinator called me and told me of this). Needless to say this really Peaved me!! I then go to Chief Resident, program director, attending and tell them that I have a residency interview at this institution but that I have decided to cancel my interview because this place "sucks". If they have residents like this, I don't want to be here. Once I said that, I understood the power of 4th year. After that, I was apologized to, taken off my service and put on another that I picked out with my full Sub-I "powers" fully reinstituted, taken to lunch, hugged by program director, and I lived happily ever after.
P.S. I later found out from other residents that Resident B had done this to other students, as well as an intern that had to repeat a month because Resident B lied on them.
So to make a long story short, As a 4th year you have power because your school and other schools need good residents. They realize you are about to be a resident and you are worth $90,000 minus residency pay to them. So you have some pull. Don't forget it and enjoy your 4th year.
And to Resident B, I hope her life is full of many rectals and she gets c diff from now until eternity.
Thanks a lot for sharing your story. It has been my unfortunate observation that these incidents most commonly happen between strong students and mediocre residents, who feel threatened. Never has happened to me with a strong resident or an attending. I believe you were lucky because the labels as a troublemaker tend to persist. As for me, I am having to endure every day the sarcasm of the fellow now. And, next time he directs said sarcasm at me, I am going to give him a piece of my mind. Already I have sent a letter to the course director.
Time flies, and soon we will all be attendings. Not only is it unethical to do this to a student, it's also unbelievably dumb. I mean, these people are two years older than us. That's nothing in terms of attending experience. Soooo dumb.
Also, in a subI you are supposed to be given more autonomy. Your school was WAY at fault in the way they handled this.
Best of luck.
 
Wow, These stories are pretty unfortunate. I am about 3 months shy of completing third year and I've only had one resident that was a pain in the ass (knocking on wood). For the most part, they have been great about teaching, sending the interesting admits my way in order to learn a ton doing my work-ups, and prepping me for my presentations to my attending. What is interesting though, is that the same residents can act different depending on which service they are on. Here, b/c are generally more stressed at Moffit Hospital, while they are more relaxed at the VA and SFGH (but just as busy). Anyway, my third year has been absolutely fantastic thus far. I feel like I am learning at leaps and bounds sometimes.

Oh, and manual disempactions aren't really done by med students here. Seems to be a nursing responsibility. We write admit orders, orders, call consults, talk to social work, Pt/Ot, write discharge orders, go check on imaging/labs, occasional ABG/IV/tap, etc. Other than that, some classes, oral presentations, etc. The subI's work harder. They report directly to the R2 or R3. Pretty great to see the growth that occurs between 3rd and 4th year.

For those with bummers for residents, keep your head up and don't let it bring you down. And more importantly, don't become what they have become during residency.
 
Pili said:
Not as bad as 3rd year, but still told by a resident this morning that my place is just to say OK...to his crappy diagnosis.

That's when you break out the can of whup-ass.
 
4th year rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't find any motivation to study though, and I'm nervous as hell about internship.
 
My advice, hide out in the 4th year as much as you can. Skip out early, take easy rotations (not in the company of the afformentioned annoying residents), skip clinics when at al possible, play a lot of golf, and drink plenty of beer. After all, it is the most expensive vacation you will ever have.
 
souljah1 said:
I feel like I am learning at leaps and bounds sometimes.

Pretty great to see the growth that occurs between 3rd and 4th year./QUOTE]

I sure hope that you are right about this great growth spurt between 3rd & 4th year. Most of the time I feel like I don't know crap, especially around the residents and attendings!
 
yes, the crap does indeed continue during 4th year; I had the misfortune to be placed on a Sub-I at a community hospital (not Faulkner or Lahey) with a rotating psych intern who had been kicked out of a Plastic Surgery Residency Program in another state, and a 3rd year resident whose main goal seemed to be to eat lunch with her husband (also a resident) every day rather than to take care of the patients (she was not able to obtain a Heme/Onc fellowship anywhere other than the comm. hospital, big surprise there). The intern insisted on "overseeing" my initial interviews with patients, hid information on the patient's PMH/SH/FH so that I had to ask them all over again even when the patient was under tremendous stress, and often ridiculed me in front of patients for not being an expert phlebotomist (upsetting them). He also refused to pre-round on his patients. During these times, my "supervising resident" was often nowhere to be found; yet at the end of the rotation she wrote in my evaluation that "she detected some strained relationships between the student and the team and didn't know why" but totally blamed it on me; the intern also wrote me up for "making the patients nervous during procedures", using details that must have taken him an hour to write. When I told the course director the truth, he did not believe me, but said he would base the grade essentially on the remarks of the attendings (super-smart grads of NWU and Yale)who really liked me and my work (essentially to cover his @$$). Fortunately, I explained their inappropriate behavior to my wonderful advisor (and former medicine clerkship director), who advocated to make sure that none of their BS was included in my Dean's Letter or Chairman's Letter. So it seems like everyone goes through this at some time or another.. just hang in there and it can't get any worse during 4th year, I guess...
 
Fourth year depends on how you schedule it. Some 3rd yr students try to come up with their own, self-imposed fourth year 'curriculum', as if it will secure confidence that they never will have. Many, many, many residents told me to enjoy my fourth year, again like the above poster said, take easy rotations, skip out early,schedule rotations in exotic specialties, and exotic locations. Enjoy the he11 out of your fourth year! You have earned a break!
Hey-its the last time YOU will EVER control your schedule-think about that!

Examples of what me and some friends did:
Plastic surgery in private practice-no rounds, no admits, scrub in all the time, first assist, plus or minus clinic. Family Medicine in Austin Texas-couple of hours into the rotation the attending told me to enjoy my visit in Austin, and to come and go as I pleased! (I took the liberty of taking him literally) and was given a grade of 99! Pathology in Hawaii. Heme-onc in Miami, FL private practice. Hey a lot of private practice docs don't get too many students, and they usually won't scut you out!

I have never regretted having fun in my fourth year!
 
oh boy, irlandesa, that sounds awful im sorry you had to go through that crap. you've been through so much B.S. during rotations, Im shocked you still wanna do clinical medicine.
 
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