BGU international health?

[wangja]

Hi,
I'm thinking about applying to BGU, and someone on this forum said that

"international health = reading articles for the first 2 years" at BGU international health MD program.

Is this true or could someone clarify this?

thanks.

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[Candlestick Man]

Hi,
I'm thinking about applying to BGU, and someone on this forum said that

"international health = reading articles for the first 2 years" at BGU international health MD program.

Is this true or could someone clarify this?

thanks.

Hello, I’m not a student; I am applying as well…

There is a course description on the website, but I think it is realistic to assume the class portion consists of lecture and reading articles… as classes do anywhere. One difference I see is that your fellow students have international experience (in health or other work) and a vested interest in int’l health, and these classes are required. That may not sound like so much, but in a US school where <5% have a deep commitment to int’l health and the classes are optional, I think that is a huge difference.

The big sell is the location. You will be interacting with an incredibly diverse patient population during training but also in your daily life – you get experience working with translators, basic communication in a language you are just learning, and other limited-resource and cross-cultural issues (Israel is a high-tech country, but from what I’ve read some Bedouin and immigrant populations do not have much access).

The fourth year clerkships in the developing world are another highlight. All US schools allow you to go abroad for clerkships but they are generally short, unstructured, and ill-supported… The BGU clerkships really stand out.

I had similar questions as you, and this is how I answered them for myself – I hope it is of some help. Maybe some current students will offer a critique.

 

[jones173]

Hey guys,

I am a third year student here at BGU. One thing I have realized over these three years is that the only way to really learn Intl. Health is to experience it. No lecture or classroom is going to give you the skills to succeed in the third world. Much of our first and second year does consist of articles and power point presentations. This might not sound great, however, at what other American school do you have past grads and speakers coming on a regular basis to discuss health care in India and Africa?

What the first two years did for me were just open me up to how interesting this field is. You really start to get the intl. health experience third year in your clerkships when you work with the Bedouin. The first two years you also take trips and see how they live and the health problems that effect them on a daily basis. You also have the opportunity here to travel the world on vacations which can give you a much better understanding of life in the third world. Plus the 4th year clerkships here are mandatory and this is one of the main reasons that people come here.

Much of the experience also relies on how much you participate. It is possible to go work with PHR every weekend and to do lots of volunteer work around Beersheva with the Bedouins. For example, I am going next week to tutor science to African refugees from Sudan.

PM me if you guys want more info.

j

 

[secretwave101]

Graduated in '05. Easily the greatest experience of my life and almost daily I wish I was back there.

IMO, there are bajillions of people who want to do international medicine, and a tiny fraction of them actually do anything other than medical tourism (has some value, but not the real deal). For Americans especially, the chance to actually live overseas is priceless. You might have the finances to really work overseas in a medical setting. Chances are you won't. Living in a place like Beer Sheva for 3 very real years, is an irreplaceable opportunity.

No problem getting residencies, BTW, unless you want optho or derm or something totally irrelevant to working in a aid tent in Sudan.

 

[IzzyMD09]

I am a current student at the BGU-MSIH program, and I am working very hard to obtain a residency in dermatology, as is one person who graduated two years ago, another student is additionally attempting to do opthamology who graduated last year,

Frankly everything secretwave 101 has said about the experience here is correct

However, I must confess I am truly embarassed by the comment made at the end of the statement, it shows nothing more but utter ignorance, because the fact of the matter is monkeys can set up shop and provide needle sticks and hand out medicine, midwives can deliver babies, and missionary people can go and teach preventative medicine.

Developing countries need specialists, far more than they need family practicioners and the likes, and the fact of the matter is doctors practicing in the specialties in academic institutions in the states are far more likely going to be the ones sent and supported to go internationally over idealistic GP's.

We were visited recently by the Dean of Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons and given a lecture about the shortage of specialized care not only in developing countries but also in the inner cities and more rural parts of America.

Coming from an interest in the field of dermatology, I know for a fact that an overwhelming majority of International Sites desire Dermatologists for specialized treatment, especially when you look at the continent of Africa where only Mbarra University in Uganda trains medical graduates for Dermatology. Leprosy clinics in India that our students go to are run by dermatologists, and almost every infectious disease outpost in Africa and Asia has a dermatologist, not to mention that Dermatology also encompasses venereology and the public health aspects of sexually transmitted diseases.

I recently attended the 37th annual International Conference of Dermatology and Venereology this past summer in Jerusalem where 23 African and Asian Countries that are classified as developing countries came and spoke about the shortage of specialized care with regards to disease of the skin. Finally I would suggest you read this abstract.

Dermatology in the Developing World
Beth MacNairn
Dermanities January 3, 2005; 2(4)

Abstract:

The need for dermatology training in the developing world is acute. The International Foundation for Dermatology (IFD) estimates that approximately 3 billion people living in more than 100 countries lack basic care for their skin diseases. The IFD reports that, for the most part, skin diseases in the developing world can be diagnosed and effectively treated by simple and inexpensive means. What is needed is the trained personnel to provide skilled and knowledgeable patient care.

Again, the international education I have attained from BGU-MSIH is nothing more than phenomenal, there would have been no way for me to realize the importance of ALL fields of medicine and the need for specialists in developing countries had I not come to this school, and chances are I would have never been inspired to pursue such an impossible career choice if I was anywhere else.

So again secretwave 101...truly embarassed! Here a present for you, a link to the SUDANESE JOURNAL OF DERMATOLOGY http://www.ajol.info/journal_index.php?jid=228, you should read about their leprosy endemic, or their infestations with onchocerciasis

Izzy

 

[IzzyMD09]

This one goes out to all the naysayers, Bloggers, and of course a specific Family Practice Doctor

BGU-MSIH is an International Medical School....CORRECTION
BGU-MSIH is THE International Medical School

You don't just learn International Medicine you practice it, especially your third year,

If you want a competitive specialty, it doesn't matter where you go, because the competitiveness of the specialty will never change, but if you want it bad enough you CAN get it, you have to be realistic as to who you are and what you are capable of. If you get a 240 on your step I you are in the same boat as US Med Students who got 240's on their step I, because thats how most schools screen anyways with Board Scores, then after that comes LOR's, and Deans Letters and all that other stuff. Its a fact Jack or John....


Medical Schools dont tell you what career you are suited for, they teach you medicine, only you yourself can figure out what you want to be, and its best to come in with an open mind on your future and then find your niche. I came here wanting to be a neurologist, then I thought about infectious disease, then I thought about immunology or oncology, finally I ended up being extremely passionate about dermatology....its the way it works out, your goal should be to keep as many windows open as possible, which may require a lot of work or none at all.....

Some people find their calling late in the game, some early, some are born knowing what they want, and the rest of us are in the middle, you can't honestly know what you want to do without experiencing it

I disagree with anyone that says "oh you cant match so and so because you went overseas....its BS....and I won't buy it ...neither should any of you!


izzy

 

[secretwave101]

I must confess I am truly embarassed by the comment made at the end of the statement, it shows nothing more but utter ignorance...So again secretwave 101...truly embarassed!

Izzy

You're militant...but I ain't mad at you!
- Jerry McGuire quote

 

[a_ditchdoc]

Secretwave,

You hold her, and I'll help you beat her to within an inch of her life...

Seriously, Izzy, I know you are well intentioned, but your viewpoint reaked of bias. You seem to be trying to justify to yourself why dermatology is such a useful skillset for the developing world but in doing so you are a bit overconfident and belittling to our friend secretwave. You should not be trying to diminish primary care specialists who are reresponsible for the bulk of the care provided in the developing world. In fact, primary care physicians in the developing world are very well trained in dermatology, much more than ourselves. I do concede that specialists would be nice, yet I fail to see the wholesale utility of some of these specialists that rely entirely on technology. For example, a radiation oncologist would be useless in most of the world. A cardiologist sounds great until you realize that the infrastructure does not have the resources for the cardiac cath facilities and drugs needed, or even an EKG, to monitor and treat an MI. They would be glorious giving aspirin and sending MI patients home just like the family practitioners. In my experience, most of the people that needed specialists in the developing world needed them because they had no access to primary care for an extended period of time. Secretwaves viewpoint is not far from the truth. We can revisit the topic after your fourth year and see where you stand then.

Please don't be so hasty to belittle others when trying to defend your own decisions. It does not look very good, even if it is not exactly what you meant.

ditch


PS: Our optho friend may be opting for Neurosurg in the near future. I am less sure about what his wife is planning. I feel fairly confident, in the many discussions we have had, that he intends to support international medicine from afar, through finances. I certainly do not envison his wife, however lovely, in an aid tent in Sudan.

 

[IzzyMD09]

sounds to me like our little blogger was a little bias boosting a career field that is more likely to be in debt and stay in the states, as opposed to specialists in academic institutions that dont need 6 years plus to pay off that 150K in loans, do the math....and dont forget our friend "CAPITALIZED INTEREST"

yeah I am bias ( i think that was intended when i said coming from an interest in dermatology, and of course I am going to speak about something i know more about, not to mention that Dr. A brought it up) and i wont apologize for that, but besides the crying i did after reading his post, i learned to let go sniff sniff
however, there is too much ignorance amongst GP's and their holier than thou attitude for what they are doing, last i checked, there is still a shortage of GP's in the good ole US of A, and i wonder why....hmmmmm maybe because they are chasing the money and staying in big cities where they can earn a fortune.... and then the idealism of actually going international washes away as they succumb to the everyday hustle and bustle of the capitalistic rat race....ahhhhh so refreshing

agreed about fields like radiation oncology, cardiology and the likes, but just because the technology isnt there doesnt mean that its not in HIGH DEMAND, it just means financially its not feasible...and thats what grant writing and clinical research are all about, I remember a time when pregnant women got no prenatal care because the ever so awesome ultrasound wasnt portable....but then oh my gosh...they came out with portable ultrasounds....jeepers

agreed GP's are in demand, but thats is for one of several reasons as you mention....failure to recieve primary care over a long amount of time, which means time to call the specialist...and GP's arent equipped to deal with the problems that are exacerbated by a lack of primary care

when you have to travel 4000 miles to get spinal surgery in africa, there is obviously a problem....again, monkeys can hand out pills and give vaccines if you train them enough (it was the best of times it was the BLURST of times....please get that reference), and midwives are pretty damn good at delivering babies, GP's do handle a lot of the workload in these countries, but probably not in the best way possible if you would read the article i posted earlier, they are not prepared to deal with serious exacerbations of diseases which is why organzations like Project Smile, and the IFD were created, a cleft palate is more than a disfiguring disorder last i checked, and how dare we forget Unite for Sight

secretwave...there is no militantism...i love you, and i am sure what you are doing is great, but comments like that just make you look not as smart as you really are from what i hear....a ditchdoc, (funny cause i know who both of you are) i agree with you about our optho/neurosurgery friend and his wife and now baby, chances are they wont do IHM, but there are plenty of sight organizations that ship out ophthalmologists to and for developing countries, not to mention facial and reconstructive surgeons in high demand in developing countries, not to mention dozens of other specialties in developing countries in high demand, including dermatology, palliative care specialists, gastro and other internal sub specialists,

think about it, if the developing countries problems could be solved by GP's and there are so many GP's overseas as you say...why are there still problems


much love
bottom line is our school is awesome, and thats why we can talk about this stuff, cause we know firsthand

p.s. aditchdoc how is wayne state....it is now my number 1 choice

Izzy

 

[NewGradGA]

izzy is right, for once, my dad (heme-onc/rad-onc)does international work 3 months out of the year and a lot of specialists go with him, this past year he went to uganda and zimbabwe, he tells me the same thing about GP's vs specialists, yes they are both needed, but there are already an abundance of GP's there

i dont see how any of this matters, its seems like BGU can only put out GP's and no offense Izzy but your chances of matching Derm are slim to none anyways so you are just wasting your time anyways

have fun at BGEWww

Gradga

 

[neurogeek]

I love to see the passion for international health demonstrated so well in this thread. Come one, come all--into the fray and on, on to victory!

As I've lived with one foot in the specialty world and one in the generalist world I can honestly say I love you all. Let's join together, forget our differences and the occasional (or persistent) silly viewpoints of our colleagues and direct our energy into promoting health for those in need.


Hey - anyone seen the Xanax?

 

[jones173]

I wouldnt say that you cant be a specialist out of here and all we put out are GPs. I think you really need to look at the fact that our school has only been around for nine years, meaning that some of our first graduating class is just now finishing residency. A school like Sackler has matched optho, orthopedics, and now neurosurgery, but they have been around for 25+ years.

We have only had a few enter into subspecialties, it will simply just take more time to see. People need to know that they need to start research, kill their boards, and maybe even take a year off for research to land those specialties. It will take those who are willing to take a chance and make new ground for this school. We have a couple in our class who will probably help pave this road by going into anesthesia and pathology.

As far as the demand for GPs internationally. If you are going to set up a clinic in a location with no doctors (ie in the middle of meninigococcemia outbreak in rural Sudan), suffering mostly from ID (TB, malaria, HIV) GPs, especially those who have experience treating these diseases, are going to be the first ones called. Most of these places may not have the resources that a surgeon or subspecialist needs. Now, I imagine that there are many tertiary care centers with the right technology that need subspecialists. One great example is the demand that opthamologists currently have in Africa for trachoma and cataract surgery. Their advantage is that they can perform many of their surgeries without a formal OR setting. Point is that there is plenty of room for all of us. Some are way more in demand than others. The advantage to being an ID specialist is that you can treat ID and many other everyday problems that people come in with since you are also an internist.

Point is all physicians need to work together as a team to aid each other in improving the health of this world. We also cannot downplay the simple expertise that a family physician might have in simple vaccine administration or the many cleft lips that one reconstructive surgeon can fix on a two week trip to India.

 

[a_ditchdoc]

" my dad (heme-onc/rad-onc)does international work 3 months out of the year"

"i dont see how any of this matters, its seems like BGU can only put out GP's"

Gradga

What does your dad do, take a piece of raw uranium with him and sit it beside his patients? Is that what happened to you? I wasn't aware that most of these countries had the capabilities of radiation therapy, and few can afford modern chemo.


BTW, that's enough swipes at the school. If you have legitimate complaints, go right ahead, but now you're just being an ***. If you don;t like the school, fine. No need to keep going on and on about it. I happened to match in a competitive specialty following graduation from BGU with little problem. It would be a lie to say it was as easy matching from BGU as it is matching from a US school. However, most of our students are tree huggers with more of an interest in primary care. I'd be a little ashamed if our school started putting out friggin pathologists. It would generally mean someone lied on their application to get into the school or the school administrators overlooked the mission of the school for whatever reason. Pfft....pathologists...

 

[a_ditchdoc]

sounds to me like our little blogger was a little bias boosting a career field that is more likely to be in debt and stay in the states, as opposed to specialists in academic institutions that dont need 6 years plus to pay off that 150K in loans, do the math....and dont forget our friend "CAPITALIZED INTEREST"

yeah I am bias ( i think that was intended when i said coming from an interest in dermatology, and of course I am going to speak about something i know more about, not to mention that Dr. A brought it up) and i wont apologize for that, but besides the crying i did after reading his post, i learned to let go sniff sniff
however, there is too much ignorance amongst GP's and their holier than thou attitude for what they are doing, last i checked, there is still a shortage of GP's in the good ole US of A, and i wonder why....hmmmmm maybe because they are chasing the money and staying in big cities where they can earn a fortune.... and then the idealism of actually going international washes away as they succumb to the everyday hustle and bustle of the capitalistic rat race....ahhhhh so refreshing

agreed about fields like radiation oncology, cardiology and the likes, but just because the technology isnt there doesnt mean that its not in HIGH DEMAND, it just means financially its not feasible...and thats what grant writing and clinical research are all about, I remember a time when pregnant women got no prenatal care because the ever so awesome ultrasound wasnt portable....but then oh my gosh...they came out with portable ultrasounds....jeepers

agreed GP's are in demand, but thats is for one of several reasons as you mention....failure to recieve primary care over a long amount of time, which means time to call the specialist...and GP's arent equipped to deal with the problems that are exacerbated by a lack of primary care

when you have to travel 4000 miles to get spinal surgery in africa, there is obviously a problem....again, monkeys can hand out pills and give vaccines if you train them enough (it was the best of times it was the BLURST of times....please get that reference), and midwives are pretty damn good at delivering babies, GP's do handle a lot of the workload in these countries, but probably not in the best way possible if you would read the article i posted earlier, they are not prepared to deal with serious exacerbations of diseases which is why organzations like Project Smile, and the IFD were created, a cleft palate is more than a disfiguring disorder last i checked, and how dare we forget Unite for Sight

secretwave...there is no militantism...i love you, and i am sure what you are doing is great, but comments like that just make you look not as smart as you really are from what i hear....a ditchdoc, (funny cause i know who both of you are) i agree with you about our optho/neurosurgery friend and his wife and now baby, chances are they wont do IHM, but there are plenty of sight organizations that ship out ophthalmologists to and for developing countries, not to mention facial and reconstructive surgeons in high demand in developing countries, not to mention dozens of other specialties in developing countries in high demand, including dermatology, palliative care specialists, gastro and other internal sub specialists,

think about it, if the developing countries problems could be solved by GP's and there are so many GP's overseas as you say...why are there still problems


much love
bottom line is our school is awesome, and thats why we can talk about this stuff, cause we know firsthand

p.s. aditchdoc how is wayne state....it is now my number 1 choice

Izzy

You can start improving the reputation of our school by making people aware that our students know basic rules of capitalization, grammar and punctuation. Have you been drinking again??


p.s. It is going well here. It has been great thus far. Lots of trauma and pathology, but I do work quite a bit. The city is not so bad as log as you don't venture into the wrong neighborhood. Let me know if you're ever in the city, we'll meet for a beer (you can have soda if you're back on the wagon).

ditch

 

[IzzyMD09]

Point is all physicians need to work together as a team to aid each other in improving the health of this world. We also cannot downplay the simple expertise that a family physician might have in simple vaccine administration or the many cleft lips that one reconstructive surgeon can fix on a two week trip to India.

well said !!!!!!!!!!
except how many GP's from the US know how to treat malaria, yes meningiococcus vaccine is easy to give, (rapid hand motions flying in the air) but treating meningiococcemia is more than a shot, (i.e. shock, fitz-hugh curtis, arthritis, peripheral neuropathy,DIC, and microangiopathic hemolytic anemia), and again GP's in the states dont have experience with complications like that because of preventitive medicine and education, no??? The point is not to pick on the list of ID's you listed but to demonstrate what actually goes into treatment in an area such as the Sudan, hence the more than just a shot. You are totally 100% right though, it takes a Village er I mean ALL physicians to recognize, and PROPERLY treat a disease.

aditch....wagon, what wagon, oh you mean the one that got done blown up by the qassam, I think I may be more than in the city for a few days, I'm most probably doing my first elective out there, and venturing into the wrong parts of the city ......well ....just think of it as an adventure, it'll be like lord of the rings only in inner city detroit...but seriously i only do SDN drunk it be more funner that way

Wayne State ....its a fantastic institution I wanted to go there for medical school too, did you know Dr. Maymon did his NIH work out of Wayne State in maternal and fetal medicine, and because of that do you think it would be a good idea to get a letter from him despite the fact he is a hoo haa doctor? or ! or < or " "

and seriously to everyone....except for Jones, what is with knocking the specialists that want to work internationally around here, i happen to know someone who really really likes pathology, but didnt make that decision until recently....no one knows what they want to do when the start medical school

izzy

 

[mirmaid959]

Does anyone know when the next Admissions meeting is for BGU?

 

[IzzyMD09]

your best bet is to call alice mahoney in the office to find out
she is really nice and will be happy to answer all of your questions

izzy

 

[mikkey]

the meeting was on March 7th. Call or email and they will give you news.

 

[mirmaid959]

Just found out I was accepted so excited!!!!

 

[IzzyMD09]

Just found out I was accepted so excited!!!!

hey mirmaid congrats