BI vs. Vandy

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
A

afteranesthesia

Full Member
Verified Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
194
Reaction score
26
I have interviewed at and loved both of these so far. How do you decide which is right when they both leave you with fantastic feelings?

For what it is worth - I want an academic career. Any opinions or pros/cons for those that are familiar with both programs?
Members don't see this ad.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Of the two, I have only interviewed at Vandy so far - BI is later in the season.
My biggest issue with Vandy is the city it is located in. If you are from the midwest/ok living in the midwest/celibate/married then Vandy is awesome. I personally felt very comfortable at Vandy. The residents were wonderful, down to earth, etc. I think they are a little too much into tech. As a resident, it is irrelevant if you can see 4 ORs through streaming video on your cellphone- our problem is getting lines and the tube in at first attempt and later on in the residency, not killing the sick patient. So, the bling bling is great, but the training, which is the biggest issue, is also stellar. Another issue that I see with Vandy is that it is a regional powerhouse, but if you want that job in that PP group in SoCal, you will probably have a hard time selling yourself. But, from what I understand, the same can be said for BI (i.e. it is Harvard-lite and does not have the name brand recognition as MGH or Brigham). Overall, I think if you are OK with Nashville, then the program is fabulous. The new chair and his team are working very hard at promoting academic research especially large database outcomes research. If that's what you want to do then you it will be heaven for you. I will post observations about BI after I am done interviewing there. Right now it is not tops on my list even though I am looking to stay in the Northeast/East Coast. Good luck. You can't go wrong with either. Both are great programs. Boston vs. Nashville is what is key.
 
Why you hating on Nashvegas?
 
I think it's tough to fully appreciate the ins/outs of a program and what it's really like on a day to day basis during one interview day. I do think that when you go through the interview process as a medical student you should keep your mind open, regardless of your pre-interview perceptions of the place, and try to form your own judgement. Having been through the whole general process, I was surprised to find out that some of programs with "well known" names were actually just coasting on these prior reputations, but that their board pass rates, didactics and clinical abilities of the residents weren't necessarily as good as other programs. Also, the comments about BID being "Harvard-lite" as well as Vandy being only a regional powerhouse that you'd have a tough time selling yourself outside of that region are inaccurate. Both are great programs and I know people that took PP jobs in Cali (and other popular cities) from both. I don't want to start a huge issue, but I just think it's important to form your own opinions about the programs you're interested in, as you will see that the programs are not "one size fits all".

When choosing a program, I went by my gut feeling (most important), available opportunities (3rd year electives/nerve block experience/TEE experience/away or international rotations), robust didactics (proven to work by board pass rates and ACGME reaccreditation cycles) and places the residents were matching into for fellowships/jobs... and haven't looked back since. I'm completely happy with my choice and I think that is the most important thing... YOUR happiness. If you fit in with the people and can see yourself at a particular program, that's probably the right one for you! Feel free to PM me with any specific questions...
 
Thanks for your reply. I really felt like I fit in well with the BI residents, and I really felt at home there. I was also impressed with the opportunities at BI. I certainly didn't feel it was "harvard-lite" at all while I was there. In fact, I was blown away by the BI case #'s, didactics, program presentation etc. Anyway, I also really liked my Vandy visit.

I have a bunch more interviews still to go, but I am starting to try to sort out programs that stood out to me, and these were certainly two that left me with those feelings that these were places I would want to be on call in a nasty bloody mess with the people there, and they were both places I think I'd learn well.

I think I am going to be going by gut feelings too. It's getting hard already, though!
 
I interviewed at both of these programs as well last year, and Vanderbilt was easily my preference (I ranked BI last on my rank list fwiw). I thought they were both strong programs, but my impression was that the caseload at vandy was much more robust. The residents seemed happier too. I don't think that name recognition will be an issue with either program, though.

I also hated boston--which is the majority of the reason I ranked it last.
 
Vanderbilt has the happiest residents of any anesthesia program that I have visited so far. The administration is extremely responsive to their needs and requests. Research opportunities abound and are encouraged. And yes, the technology is very innovative. Did I mention that everyone gets an iPad? (you probably have one already)

If you cannot decide between Boston and Nashville, think about your quality of life the next four years. In my book, Vandy. No question.

:)

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions about my home institution.
 
Fully agree with what the above posters have said. One should go where one feels comfortable. The match is exactly like dating. Heck, the NRMP match algorithm came out of the 'stable marriage algorithm'. So, if you met her/him on that date (interview) and felt that you guys had great chemistry, then there is no reason why you shouldn't think of an LTR. And you better be sure that this is what you want because you'd be spending a substantial amount of time with that person (program) and basically taking up their surname for the rest of your life. I like the fact that as soon as you point out the crooked teeth or the 6th toe, their friends are there to defend. Its so cute. That's what friends are for!
 
Last edited:
Here is an opinion from someone who is now done with residency and fellowship.

I won't make any comment about resident happiness, because I think that's highly personal and there are few residencies -- no matter what the hours or the perks -- where a person who has a positive attitude and an optimistic mindset cannot be happy.

I trained in Boston and now work in the South. If you are looking for a residency where you will get a broad range of awesome surgical cases, the place to go is Vandy. There is no similar surgical referral center for hundreds of miles. There is no competition in town (or out of town, for that matter) for pediatrics, level 1 trauma, or transplant. The OB is high risk. All of those anesthetics are yours as a resident.

Whereas in Boston, the level 1 traumas go to MGH and BU. The great cardiothoracic goes to Brigham, as does the very high risk OB. The livers go to BI, but there is no level 1 trauma and the neurosurgery is weak. The great pediatric cases go to the fellows at Children's, and if you rotate Children's as a resident all you get are the bread and butter tonsils.

Both programs have an excellent reputation (BI's mainly because it is Harvard's third leg) and if you graduate from either residency you will be well prepared to begin practice. But if you want to be in a place where you will do EVERYTHING, Vandy is the place to go. If you were interviewing MGH or BWH and comparing that to Vandy, I would say you are comparing similar programs. But between BID and Vandy, Vandy is the stronger program without a doubt.
 
Last edited:
Not saying that Vandy isn't a good program, but I think you have some facts incorrect. BID is a level 1 trauma center and it actually has a new Chief of Neurosurgery from Mt. Sinai (this is probably changed from when the above poster was a resident and in the Boston area, however it has always been Level 1 trauma as far as I know). As a resident at Boston Children's (where all the Harvard residency programs all rotate), you see some crazy cases and kids with rare conditions that you likely won't see anywhere else in the world. Not saying that you do every one of those cases by yourself, but there is also value in doing some by yourself and some with a fellow.

Also, BID incoming residents are also getting iPads (lots of programs seem to be touting this recently)...

There seem to be all kinds of inaccurate or out of date details floating around by all programs these days... just go where you feel comfortable, which will make the best learning environment for you in the long run...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Vandy, just because it's the big dog in their geographical area. Not saying BI doesn't provide as good or maybe even better training than BWH and MGH, but I think it is a disadvantage in certain respects to be the third biggest "name" program in a city
 
I just wanted to followup on the point made by guitarguy09. One thing people should be wary of are the misconceptions people have about "names" of hospitals and programs. First, while the hospital may have a "big" or well known name, it is in no way, shape, or form, indicative of the types of sub-specialty training you receive, especially when it comes to anesthesia training. For example, some of the biggest "names" in Boston that people have mentioned, have indeed been coasting on their past reputations, which I was also surprised to learn.

The Anesthesia Program at Brigham (BWH), for example, was recently slammed with a 2 year ACGME Accreditation cycle in October of 2011. For those that do not know, the ACGME (which accredits all programs in the US) reviews programs on how well they are meeting the various set educational requirements and based on how well a program is meeting these standards determines how often they are evaluated. The review cycle lengths for anesthesia range from 1-5 years (5 being the best, as they feel they have to be reviewed least often, where 1-2 they are reviewed more frequently due to various deficiencies). Any one with a 1-2 cycle (and even a 3), is a HUGE red flag, as the ACGME feels they have to constantly review the program much more often as they are not meeting specific educational standards, or they are violating ACGME regulations (Ie. work hours, board pass rates, etc.). BWH in particular, had a high written board fail rate last year (>20%). Anytime you visit a program, it is always good to learn these sorts of things, as you do not want to go to a program that is in danger of losing its accreditation, as no accreditation = no board certification.

If you want to review various programs yourself, please check this website out:
https://www.acgme.org/ads/Public/Programs/Search

With regards to Vandy and BI, both have 5 year accreditation cycles and are both outstanding programs. It is tough to determine where you want to spend the next 3-4 years of your life based on a 1 day interview snapshot of a place. My advice involves 4 things:

1. Pick a good location where you want to live
2. Pick a program that will give you all of the education opportunities you want
3. Pick a place where you feel at home and fit in
4. Finally, and most importantly, go with your gut.

Bottom line, instead of listening to rumors about programs and going to a place based off of hospital names, check out a program and formulate your own opinion.
 
Last edited:
This thread is enlightening...thanks for all the feedback.

FWIW - I met someone (not on my interview day but elsewhere) who had done ACC fellowship at Vandy, and he highly recommended it. Said it was fantastic. The nursing thing is disturbing. I now wish I had asked about that at my interview to the residents. They seemed incredibly happy, though. I really liked the group I met a lot.
 
Is there any truth to this post? I interviewed there for fellowship and thought the hospital and anesthesia program were pretty awesome. Pretty unbelievable to me that BWH could have a >20% board failure rate when my non-Harvard program has a 100% pass rate. I've also run across a few grads who were very well trained and awesome to work with.

You can't go wrong with Beth Israel or Vandy-I would rank base on location.
IMHO Nashville >> Boston


karatemstr00 said:
I just wanted to followup on the point made by guitarguy09. One thing people should be wary of are the misconceptions people have about "names" of hospitals and programs. First, while the hospital may have a "big" or well known name, it is in no way, shape, or form, indicative of the types of sub-specialty training you receive, especially when it comes to anesthesia training. For example, some of the biggest "names" in Boston that people have mentioned, have indeed been coasting on their past reputations, which I was also surprised to learn.

The Anesthesia Program at Brigham (BWH), for example, was recently slammed with a 2 year ACGME Accreditation cycle in October of 2011. For those that do not know, the ACGME (which accredits all programs in the US) reviews programs on how well they are meeting the various set educational requirements and based on how well a program is meeting these standards determines how often they are evaluated. The review cycle lengths for anesthesia range from 1-5 years (5 being the best, as they feel they have to be reviewed least often, where 1-2 they are reviewed more frequently due to various deficiencies). Any one with a 1-2 cycle (and even a 3), is a HUGE red flag, as the ACGME feels they have to constantly review the program much more often as they are not meeting specific educational standards, or they are violating ACGME regulations (Ie. work hours, board pass rates, etc.). BWH in particular, had a high written board fail rate last year (>20%). Anytime you visit a program, it is always good to learn these sorts of things, as you do not want to go to a program that is in danger of losing its accreditation, as no accreditation = no board certification.

If you want to review various programs yourself, please check this website out:
https://www.acgme.org/ads/Public/Programs/Search

With regards to Vandy and BI, both have 5 year accreditation cycles and are both outstanding programs. It is tough to determine where you want to spend the next 3-4 years of your life based on a 1 day interview snapshot of a place. My advice involves 4 things:

1. Pick a good location where you want to live
2. Pick a program that will give you all of the education opportunities you want
3. Pick a place where you feel at home and fit in
4. Finally, and most importantly, go with your gut.

Bottom line, instead of listening to rumors about programs and going to a place based off of hospital names, check out a program and formulate your own opinion.
Click to expand...
 
nycitygas said:
Is there any truth to this post? I interviewed there for fellowship and thought the hospital and anesthesia program were pretty awesome. Pretty unbelievable to me that BWH could have a >20% board failure rate when my non-Harvard program has a 100% pass rate. I've also run across a few grads who were very well trained and awesome to work with.

You can't go wrong with Beth Israel or Vandy-I would rank base on location.
IMHO Nashville >> Boston
Click to expand...

The same guy, using different names, keeps trolling every thread about accreditation cycles and brigham constantly. Seems like a bitter reject
 
karatemstr00 said:
I just wanted to followup on the point made by guitarguy09. One thing people should be wary of are the misconceptions people have about "names" of hospitals and programs. First, while the hospital may have a "big" or well known name, it is in no way, shape, or form, indicative of the types of sub-specialty training you receive, especially when it comes to anesthesia training. For example, some of the biggest "names" in Boston that people have mentioned, have indeed been coasting on their past reputations, which I was also surprised to learn.
BWH in particular, had a high written board fail rate last year (>20%). Anytime you visit a program, it is always good to learn these sorts of things, as you do not want to go to a program that is in danger of losing its accreditation, as no accreditation = no board certification.

Bottom line, instead of listening to rumors about programs and going to a place based off of hospital names, check out a program and formulate your own opinion.
Click to expand...

I am also a fellow applicant who incidentally has a strong interest in inter-institution politics. I was trying to avoid saying this but my friend here just opened another can of worms::love:
The venom and bile I have seen from folks at BI about the other two Harvard programs is just mindblowing. I am sorry, but previously it was the General and how it was outdated and riding on its reputation. So, now it is BWH that is riding its reputation? Blasting others in order to make your program look 'good' and 'friendly' is just not a great idea. Pimping the 5-year accreditation is also not such a good idea. It says nothing about training, it just means that your residents weren't recorded as having said bad things about the program. People complain when you make them put their nose to the grindstone. And, you must be kidding me. BWH is at no risk of losing its accreditation anytime soon or in the future. These are extremely high volume hospitals where residents end up working hard and learning a lot. You have a class of 32 residents. Everyone is not going to be a happy chappy no matter how hard you try. BWH is a very, very, VERY good training program that will train you to be a very good anesthesiologist. Don't ask me, ask any academic anesthesiologist.
Also, folks from BI, please don't ruin it for us with these defensive attacks. This only puts the program in a bad light.
Being the underdog is OK.
 
Last edited:
afteranesthesia said:
This thread is enlightening...thanks for all the feedback.

FWIW - I met someone (not on my interview day but elsewhere) who had done ACC fellowship at Vandy, and he highly recommended it. Said it was fantastic. The nursing thing is disturbing. I now wish I had asked about that at my interview to the residents. They seemed incredibly happy, though. I really liked the group I met a lot.
Click to expand...

I also raised the CRNa dominance issue when I was talking to a resident. The leadership at Vandy is convinced that the future of anesthesiology is in supervision of midlevel providers. They even have a training program for residents in which they teach you to supervise them etc. So, my impression was that the CRNA domination is not going anywhere at all anytime soon.
 
Noegrus said:
I am also a fellow applicant who incidentally has a strong interest in inter-institution politics. I was trying to avoid saying this but my friend here just opened another can of worms::love:
The venom and bile I have seen from folks at BI about the other two Harvard programs is just mindblowing. I am sorry, but previously it was the General and how it was outdated and riding on its reputation. So, now it is BWH that is riding its reputation? Blasting others in order to make your program look 'good' and 'friendly' is just not a great idea. Pimping the 5-year accreditation is also not such a good idea. It says nothing about training, it just means that your residents weren't recorded as having said bad things about the program. People complain when you make them put their nose to the grindstone. And, you must be kidding me. BWH is at no risk of losing its accreditation anytime soon or in the future. These are extremely high volume hospitals where residents end up working hard and learning a lot. You have a class of 32 residents. Everyone is not going to be a happy chappy no matter how hard you try. BWH is a very, very, VERY good training program that will train you to be a very good anesthesiologist. Don't ask me, ask any academic anesthesiologist.
Also, folks from BI, please don't ruin it for us with these defensive attacks. This only puts the program in a bad light.
Being the underdog is OK.
Click to expand...

No offense man but as a fellow applicant, I find your post to be pretty offensive. There are ways to get your point across but lines such as "being the underdog is OK" kind of discredit what you intended to convey in your original post. With that said, unfortunately after interviewing at each of the Harvard institutions, you will realize that in some respects they will each mention something about the other programs and that's just the nature of the game. I do think you are misinformed, however, about how the accreditation cycle works as programs aren't cited just because of resident complaints but rather the information gathered by an independent review committee who evaluate such things as resident case numbers, duty hours, board pass rates, etc. With that said, Brigham did address this issue during their interview day and mentioned the steps they were taking to fix the deficiencies that they were noted for. This includes reducing the residency class from 30 residents to 24 residents for the 2014 class so that residents have more time for didactics and so that all case numbers for each resident are met. I was impressed with each institution and I think each one can offer something that the others can not and it is up to us as applicants to find this out during our interview day at each institution and not on these forums. I did not get the feel that BID was walking in the shadows of the other 2 big name and I feel that coming from any of these 3 programs, the number of job opportunities and fellowships offers will be endless. It's just up to us as applicants to determine which place suits our personality and which specializes in a certain subspecialty of anesthesia that may be of interest in the future. I do not think you should base your decision solely on name as you will be certainly disappointed if you are not happy through your 3 years of anesthesia training. Also, I do not feel that you should attack the BID resident who commented on this discussion for simply defending his institution as the subject of this discussion was brought about by another applicant who sought to obtain the type of information that was brought about by the BID resident's post as well as others. I hope other applicants enjoy the rest of interview season as much as I am as it is a pleasure to be invited to such esteemed institutions as the two that were the initial subject of this very forum post. I just urge people not to base your decision upon what is discussed in these forums but rather your own feelings from visiting and learning about the institution for yourself. After every interview I have had, I have been given numerous faculty and residents emails to ask further questions and I implore you to use those resources rather than the sometimes less than factual information that is discussed in some of these forums.
 
:idea: To the above poster. I concur with everything you just said. I have realized that I was misinformed and that BI is the best anesthesiology residency training program around. They have a 5-year accreditation, the people are very friendly, and there is tonnes of education and research going on. They are far, far better in every way than the other Boston area programs which are only about reputation and nothing else. BWH will soon lose its accreditation and will be reducing its resident class size and MGH is old and imparts horrible anesthesia training. BI will also have you TEE certified.
Dear OP, please choose BI. Please also urge all other academic superstar candidates to go to BI. This is my (now) learned recommendation.
 
Noegrus said:
:idea: To the above poster. I concur with everything you just said. I have realized that I was misinformed and that BI is the best anesthesiology residency training program around. They have a 5-year accreditation, the people are very friendly, and there is tonnes of education and research going on. They are far, far better in every way than the other Boston area programs which are only about reputation and nothing else. BWH will soon lose its accreditation and will be reducing its resident class size and MGH is old and imparts horrible anesthesia training. BI will also have you TEE certified.
Dear OP, please choose BI. Please also urge all other academic superstar candidates to go to BI. This is my (now) learned recommendation.
Click to expand...

Wow man. After reading that comment it is clear that your are not someone who can judge the point that was trying to be made by the above poster. Based upon that and some of your other ignorant comments including the one regarding Cornell's anesthesia program I can see why many other programs may have overlooked your application in favor of some more qualified applicants cause your personality certainly shines through with such negative posts as the one you posted above.
 
Noegrus,

I meant no offense by my post and I was merely trying to inform other applicants to take what is said on these forums with a grain of salt and I'm sad to see that you took such offense to my post. You have my sincere apologies if you felt anything I said was an attack in any way. However, I hope that you do not let such sarcasm show at your future BID or other programs interviews as I do not believe they will take kindly to admitting a resident with such a personality into their program. Just a word of advice.
 
Argumentum ad hominem is always a great way to critique someone's impressions of a program.
 
^^ Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Dr. Mitchell!! :hello:
Out of respect for all the hard work you guys put in to make things work for residents, I am going to rest my case. Enough has been said to catch your attention, and that is what matters most to me. Whether the issue of dissing Brigham (and MGH) online and in person gets looked into or not is your prerogative. Thanks for the attention. See you soon! :D
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Noegrus said:
^^ Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Dr. Mitchell!! :hello:
Out of respect for all the hard work you guys put in to make things work for residents, I am going to rest my case. Enough has been said to catch your attention, and that is what matters most to me. Whether the issue of dissing Brigham (and MGH) online and in person gets looked into or not is your prerogative. Thanks for the attention. See you soon! :D
Click to expand...
This thread has gotten weirdly angry. Noegrus, all of the top tier programs (including MGH) are looking for people who are humble, respectful, and team-players. Keep in mind that their program directors are friends, and all talk to each other. If Dr. Mitchell wasn't following this thread before, you can be sure he is now... and the above posts don't really demonstrate any of the characteristics I mentioned earlier.

To afteranesthesia and nycitygas. The post earlier is correct... but I think it was an anomaly. From what I know, BWH's pass rate has been much higher in previous years, and they may have had a bad year. They did get a 2 year cycle, but they have a new program director. Honestly, if you go to any of the top 20 tier programs (maybe even 30) you will get great training. You need to constantly ask what you can do to be better, don't overestimate your ability (that's how you hurt people... always be willing to ask for help), and use all the opportunities your program offers. Some get more trauma, some more ENT, some more cardiac, some more neuro... (you get my point), but all need to meet ACGME minimums.

Go where you think you will feel most supported, you think you will enjoy yourself (4 years is a LONG time to be miserable), and where you think you can be the most honest with yourself and your attendings as to what you need to improve upon in order to be the best anesthesiologist. Ask what the residents feel like they lack (if they say nothing... they are lying), and where they think their program excels. If you have specific interests, ask to meet with someone in the department that can answer your questions. Most places are happy to do so.

Most importantly, I have met amazing attendings that graduated from MGH, BWH, BI, Vandy, Maryland shock trauma, Hopkins, Seattle, Dartmouth, Yale... you will be fine at any of those places! I promise!
 
Thanks for the responses. Yes, this thread turned.... Odd. Thank you to all who gave feedback. I'm sticking with my gut - I loved both. It'll be a hard decision, but I'm very blessed to have such good choices.
 
NightNight said:
As someone who is all but set on doing my residency in the South, and is fairly convinced already to rank Vandy #1, are there any attendings or residents who can comment on this and how it might affect A) residency training, or B) fellowship training at this institution?
Click to expand...

I trained at Vandy in anesthesia and in critical care. The NP presence does not affect the residents in any way, except to offload the daytime scutwork and share night call. Fellowship is a little different, as you are expected to run the team that consists of residents/interns/NP/med students, but they arent exactly stealing learning opportunities. Their presence allowed us to take more home call than in house call (still in house nights for 2-3 months a year, just not q3 or q4). Im happy to answer specifics about the program through PM.

As far as the CRNA/SRNA issue, Vandy definitely has embraced the anesthesia care team model, and there are days where the residents are "junior attending" but getting experience at supervision is extremely important, given the variability in job structure. Im not sure I agree that there is a "training program" for that, per se. (although i dont think it would be the worst idea to get earlier experience, since the transition from doing your own cases last day of CA-3 to supervising 4 rooms your first day as an attending is pretty crazy)
 
Resurrecting month-old threads is BANABLE.

So is using the word resurrecting!!!!!

I should be banned.

WM1846
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

Stellar Clouds
MGH vs Vandy
Replies
5
Views
2K
Idiopathic
Idiopathic
V
Vandy for attendings?
Replies
2
Views
1K
SexPanther
SexPanther
H
Vandy vs Pitt
Replies
6
Views
3K
bigdan
bigdan
H
Ranking Question. Pitt vs Vandy vs Northwestern vs Mt Sinai
Replies
5
Views
4K
KaoticMessiah
K
D
Vandy Love Letter?
Replies
1
Views
1K
bcat85
bcat85
Top