Biased previous employer

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
P

Pmr.attendingdoc

PMR doc
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
10
Reaction score
13
Members don't see this ad.
I am a pain physician and got into a bad job. It was part time and they were supposed to get me to a full time position in 6 months. They also had planned on giving me healthcare benefits but did not. So I left them because I was getting a better job somewhere else but that job fell through. Unsure if it was my previous jobs bad mouthing me. Now I have not been able to secure a job anywhere.
From a colleague I hear that one of the other docs who is a medical director is bad mouthing me.
The job did not result in a full time job and they did not provide me with healthcare benefits. Also they were an only PI job and so they say that I used to scare patients from getting injections. By going over the consent with patients and making sure they understand the consequences of a bad outcome, if they were not getting the injection for pain, is not scarring them but I used this to weed out doing unnecessary procedures. They gave me a 90 day notice and that started from the 1st of January which per my calculation ends on the 31st of March but they wanted me to work the 1st of April because it was the last day of the week. I ended up not going on the 1st of April because I had no malpractice on that day and they had decided not to cover my tail which was part of the contract. So now they go about telling future employers about these things. I am not sure how to defend myself as I have proof of their denial to cover tail but they want me to do their injections. In fact the higher up writes to me telling me that I do not need tail as all I did was some injections. I did not do any surgery.
How do I go about this?

Thank you
 
I think you need a lawyer.

It is amazing how people act like idiots and want to ruin peoples careers because of greed. My first real job out of fellowship taught me so much of how people can take advantage of you. I got offered “partnership,” where i would never have a say in my own practice and I politely turned that down. Then the almighty boss got all pissed at me and wanted to bad mouth me. Thankfully my next job boss could see right through the guy and told me later that this former boss told him that I only cared about money. The new boss said he saw right through that sob. His words.
But If my new boss wasn’t going to be able see through this nonsense I was going to have to get a lawyer involved more. I actually had a lawyer coach me on the periphery as a courtesy to me.
 
Pmr.attendingdoc said:
I am a pain physician and got into a bad job. It was part time and they were supposed to get me to a full time position in 6 months. They also had planned on giving me healthcare benefits but did not. So I left them because I was getting a better job somewhere else but that job fell through. Unsure if it was my previous jobs bad mouthing me. Now I have not been able to secure a job anywhere.
From a colleague I hear that one of the other docs who is a medical director is bad mouthing me.
The job did not result in a full time job and they did not provide me with healthcare benefits. Also they were an only PI job and so they say that I used to scare patients from getting injections. By going over the consent with patients and making sure they understand the consequences of a bad outcome, if they were not getting the injection for pain, is not scarring them but I used this to weed out doing unnecessary procedures. They gave me a 90 day notice and that started from the 1st of January which per my calculation ends on the 31st of March but they wanted me to work the 1st of April because it was the last day of the week. I ended up not going on the 1st of April because I had no malpractice on that day and they had decided not to cover my tail which was part of the contract. So now they go about telling future employers about these things. I am not sure how to defend myself as I have proof of their denial to cover tail but they want me to do their injections. In fact the higher up writes to me telling me that I do not need tail as all I did was some injections. I did not do any surgery.
How do I go about this?

Thank you
Click to expand...
By the way if you saw one patient for any reason, even a two minute refill of melodically, then you need tail. What if that person develops cancer and then decides that it was on the prior mri that you should have reviewed. And if you had reviewed that then he/she would not have metastatic cancer today. Or some case like that. I sure would want a legal defense
 
Sounds like a really unfortunate situation. I agree that you probably need to get a lawyer. The cost will probably be well worth it in the end. Only get the lawyer if he or she comes highly recommended by a friend. If you get the lawyer, have 3 specific questions and a concise explanation of the events that got you here.
Question 1. Does office pay for the tail? Question 2. Do I owe the office for days/work as they have suggested?
Question 3. What is the best way to end the relationship now without making things worse?
Something like that…
regarding telling future employers not to hire you, it may help your sanity to accept that you cannot control what any person says about you, ever. It is outside your control. Let it be. What you can control, however, is how you respond to the situation. I would recommend addressing it directly. Tell the future employer a very concise version of events and state that due to your concerns over patient safety and procedure appropriateness you were labeled negatively by the former employer. If the future employer has a half a brain, and you are sincere and professional, the future employer will put 2 and 2 together. PI has a reputation.
I am sorry you are dealing with this situation. The best thing to do is handle it professionally and rationally, and do not get drawn into something insane. Talk to your friends and colleagues and people you trust. Don’t enter the darkness any further than you already have. Bad things happens to everyone. What are you going to do next? Don’t dwell on what has already happened.
 
If they don't pay the tail, you should. It's way cheaper to have that protection even if risk is low. If you get a new job soon, you can see if they'll pay it or pay nose coverage.

You should at least send a demand letter for the cost if you pay it. A lawyer can help with that.

If it's clear cut, you may be able to find an attorney who will work on a percentage of recovery. Don't do one who charges by the hour, as fees are probably going to cost you more than any recovery.
 
Last edited:
RoloTomassi said:
If they don't pay the tail, you should. It's way cheaper to have that protection even if risk is low. If you get a new job soon, you can see if they'll pay it or pay nose coverage.

You should at least send a demand letter for the cost if you pay it. A lawyer can help with that.

If it's clear cut, you may be able to find an attorney who will work on a percentage of recovery. Don't do one who charges by the hour, as fees are probably going to cost you more than any recovery.
Click to expand...

I agree with the statement. Attorneys probably going to charge at least $400-$500/hr. At the same time cost of the tail for your less than 6mo of work probably is going to be less than $5k (it’s usually x2 of cost of your annual premium)…
 
Last edited:
I restarted making payments towards the malpractice and so at this time am still with them. But the bigger issue is how I go about telling future employers as most of them will not give me the benefit of the doubt.
 
If this is your only work experience since fellowship it may be tough to shake the only employer bad mouthing you.

The advice to keep your story simple as above is good. Your approach to patient care and/or comfort level did not fit in with the practice, etc.

I would try to avoid bad mouthing the employer.

If you left on bad terms it may be worth meeting your former employer for a cup of coffee and discuss respectfully that you had your differences and things did not work out but they may be putting you in a tough spot. Most people are human and will have some sympathy or may back down when confronted (respectfully).

Also I am not trying to dig on anyone when they're down, but PI is notorious for doing superfluous procedures so from your employer's perspective your 'weeding out' procedures is understandably seen as limiting or hesitant.
 
Pmr.attendingdoc said:
I am a pain physician and got into a bad job. It was part time and they were supposed to get me to a full time position in 6 months. They also had planned on giving me healthcare benefits but did not. So I left them because I was getting a better job somewhere else but that job fell through. Unsure if it was my previous jobs bad mouthing me. Now I have not been able to secure a job anywhere.
From a colleague I hear that one of the other docs who is a medical director is bad mouthing me.
The job did not result in a full time job and they did not provide me with healthcare benefits. Also they were an only PI job and so they say that I used to scare patients from getting injections. By going over the consent with patients and making sure they understand the consequences of a bad outcome, if they were not getting the injection for pain, is not scarring them but I used this to weed out doing unnecessary procedures. They gave me a 90 day notice and that started from the 1st of January which per my calculation ends on the 31st of March but they wanted me to work the 1st of April because it was the last day of the week. I ended up not going on the 1st of April because I had no malpractice on that day and they had decided not to cover my tail which was part of the contract. So now they go about telling future employers about these things. I am not sure how to defend myself as I have proof of their denial to cover tail but they want me to do their injections. In fact the higher up writes to me telling me that I do not need tail as all I did was some injections. I did not do any surgery.
How do I go about this?

Thank you
Click to expand...
Did you inquire about the nature of the practice/payor mix prior to joining? If you did ask, did they just flat out lie about what type of practice it was? And if you did ask and they told you, why would you join it?
 
Agree with the above mostly. Keep the story simple. Don't try to throw stones or attack anyone.
Leverage prior relationships for references.

If you make it to an interview, make vague statements when asked about how this was a learning experience, how your practice parameters were not compatible, how you were uncomfortable with the business pressures, needed health benefits for your family, etc. Get into the details if they keep pushing, but try to stay professional/business focused and not make personal attacks.

Have others vouch for you and do the dirty work of explaining the shenanigans, like device reps, clinical references, etc.

Find mentors in the region you're trying to work in through a local pain society. Those organizations are often happy to guide you to lawyers that work with the society for contract review in the future and they can also provide networking opportunities for jobs.

Realize you're not going to get a better job by suing your former practice for slander though. Just find a job for right now.
The better job will come when you've got a new job in hand.
You may have to re-prove your reputation.
 
dont know how far you intend to take this (I don't think you do, either), but this former employer is playing hardball b/c they know they are in the wrong.

rather than actually getting involved in a lawsuit, you could theoretically "threaten" a lawsuit against them for slander and lost wages. you also could threaten to expose their shady business practices. none of this will actually happen - they wont actuallybe found guilty and nothing will go to trial -- but if there is enough dirty laundry over there, then they may cover the tail or at least stop throwing shade your way when it comes to other employers. unfortunately, this is how lawyers think and probably how they think.

playing nice is the right way to go about it, but these guys don't seem like the type to play that way.
 
Guessing your PMR… get a job any job… like subacute just to fill the time… meet other doctors pain, PMR, Ortho, NSGY find out who all the players are in town, while you doing subacute offer to see patients do some injections or EMG at there surgical center see some patients. You have to develop a professional reputation outside of the practice so they can judge you independently of that guy chances are if they are in town they know what he or she is but still don’t know you. You got to get someone to vouch even if the PCP at the nursing home
 
I think if they are telling people detailed accounts you have you give concrete reasons why you left.

1. You expected full time
2. You expected health insurance
3. You expected malpractice coverage

Pretty sure anybody can get behind you on those things. If you feel comfortable enough, throw in that you weren't comfortable with the way they did PI (only if you know the places you are interviewing don't do PI)

Regarding unnecessary procedures, be careful that you don't sound like a low producer.

Re: playing hardball, if you actually file a suit, even if for your tail, realize that doing so opens the door for their counterclaims against you, which you then have to defend unless you drop the suit. Can escalate and get costly quickly, and they probably have the bigger war chest.
 
Thank you all for the suggestions.
I have had several interviews and did not bad mouth them. They had given me a reason of low volume for the termination and so I use that as the reason.
I knew that this was a PI job but this was the only job I was getting in the desired location at that time and so I took it. Plus the doc who is now bad nothing me was with me in residency a couple of years ahead and so felt like this would be a good place. The only reason that this turned against me was because they were opening a commercial insurance based clinic and they wanted to have me full time but as I said above because of the fact that they had made these promises and also knowing how unorganized they are, I did not take it because at that same time I was getting a job that was more favorable than this.
I spoke with a lawyer too about the tail and he told me that this would be a post termination issue and unlikely to cause issues. I even wrote to them that my lawyer had said that per my contract they are obligated to pay for the tail but they are not easily threatened.
I have tried to find a snf job here even emg and nothing has panned out for the past two months and now going on three.
There is no way to convince these people to be human. PI business is very shady and there is always the thought of secondary gain. I try to weed out because
if anything bad we’re to happen then I would be at fault because their MRI shows nothing that is truly pathological. They would be sent over because they have a 1 or 2 mm disc bulge with no impingement or other pathology seen on the MRI. They would be referred for an epidural without any radicular symptoms, if they were to get a bad outcome then I will not be able to defend myself in any way. These companies make $12k from an epidural and $6500 from a tpi.
 
if you are not restricted to a geographic location, move. if not, see about going back to your training program and see if they will take you for a short time.

to reiterate again - above all else, before you sign any future contract, have a contract lawyer - preferably medical - look at it.

if you cant find a job, then why dont you look in to opening your own practice (assuming you have the business acumen to do so)?
 
Glad you are lawyering up.

In some states it is illegal for your former employer to disclose certain information to prospective employers. Other states require performance information to be given in writing which you can receive a copy. Some states require your consent for them to give any information.
 
Get a friend of yours to call the clinic for a reference check and see what they say before you get too invested, and in the mean time keep looking for other positions even as locums, your situation will improve when that’s not your only employer.
 
Pmr.attendingdoc said:
Thank you all for the suggestions.
I have had several interviews and did not bad mouth them. They had given me a reason of low volume for the termination and so I use that as the reason.
I knew that this was a PI job but this was the only job I was getting in the desired location at that time and so I took it. Plus the doc who is now bad nothing me was with me in residency a couple of years ahead and so felt like this would be a good place. The only reason that this turned against me was because they were opening a commercial insurance based clinic and they wanted to have me full time but as I said above because of the fact that they had made these promises and also knowing how unorganized they are, I did not take it because at that same time I was getting a job that was more favorable than this.
I spoke with a lawyer too about the tail and he told me that this would be a post termination issue and unlikely to cause issues. I even wrote to them that my lawyer had said that per my contract they are obligated to pay for the tail but they are not easily threatened.
I have tried to find a snf job here even emg and nothing has panned out for the past two months and now going on three.
There is no way to convince these people to be human. PI business is very shady and there is always the thought of secondary gain. I try to weed out because
if anything bad we’re to happen then I would be at fault because their MRI shows nothing that is truly pathological. They would be sent over because they have a 1 or 2 mm disc bulge with no impingement or other pathology seen on the MRI. They would be referred for an epidural without any radicular symptoms, if they were to get a bad outcome then I will not be able to defend myself in any way. These companies make $12k from an epidural and $6500 from a tpi.
Click to expand...
I don’t know that I would say “low volume”’is why you parted ways. As a prospective employer It sounds like a red flag. Can you not say that you were pressured into doing things that you felt were not medically indicated for the patient? That sounds accurate and as a prospective employer I would actually view this positively.

I can’t teach ethics to a new hire.

But a close second is I don’t want to have to deal with someone who got fired for having a low volume without a really good explanation.

Like for instance my job where I had to leave (and then was subsequently bad mouthed behind my back). Anytime I met a new doctor the boss had to horn in and join us for dinner. I never told the guy but somehow he would find out. And then he would try to steal all the referrals for injections and give me the Med management or the Caid patients who would no show. Now you can see why I left and why he was mad that I left.

You should work on how to explain your situation where the guy gets portrayed like the huge a hole he is but without you saying it directly. Don’t say he’s a d*ck, rather describe specifically his d*ckish moves.
 
I'll throw my 2cents in. Sorry if some of this sounds harsh, I'm trying to be as honest as possible to help you.

#1. Everything that Geauxg8rs says is 100% true. Read his posts and do what he says.

#2. When you're trying to find a new job, think what your potential employer is looking for. Even without your prior employer saying bad things, it sounds like you're shooting yourself in the foot just based on what I'm seeing you write here. Do they want to hire a whiny doc who says they can't produce? Keep in mind all employers only get paid if you bring in more than you cost. As I read your comments above I see run-on sentences complaining about your prior employer and how you are a victim. As a potential employer, it sounds like you are projecting your failures, inadequacies, and your crappy situation on others. While this may be true, you have to figure out a better way of telling your story.

#3. When asked why you left your prior employer (remember, you weren't fired), just tell the new employer that they breached your contract. If your contract truly said they would hire you full time, give you health insurance, and cover your tail, that's the reason you left. If they push, you can also tell them you were pressured to do unethical things, but you'd rather not discuss them. All potential employers can understand that.

#4. Do NOT tell your new employer about the prior practice's insurance mix, their business practices, your quantity of procedures, how your old employer smelled of garlic, whatever. That can be considered proprietary information and theoretically also makes you just as guilty of defamation.

#5. To clarify, malpractice is 100% necessary for every single day you are seeing patients any ANY capacity, even just answering portal messages. This covers you WHILE you are working. Additionally, tail is 100% necessary AFTER you leave and should cover EVERY day you worked previously at that employer. If you were contractually guaranteed this (check your contract carefully), then I would get a lawyer involved to obtain it. Don't go without tail.
 
Pmr.attendingdoc said:
I am a pain physician and got into a bad job. It was part time and they were supposed to get me to a full time position in 6 months. They also had planned on giving me healthcare benefits but did not. So I left them because I was getting a better job somewhere else but that job fell through. Unsure if it was my previous jobs bad mouthing me. Now I have not been able to secure a job anywhere.
From a colleague I hear that one of the other docs who is a medical director is bad mouthing me.
The job did not result in a full time job and they did not provide me with healthcare benefits. Also they were an only PI job and so they say that I used to scare patients from getting injections. By going over the consent with patients and making sure they understand the consequences of a bad outcome, if they were not getting the injection for pain, is not scarring them but I used this to weed out doing unnecessary procedures. They gave me a 90 day notice and that started from the 1st of January which per my calculation ends on the 31st of March but they wanted me to work the 1st of April because it was the last day of the week. I ended up not going on the 1st of April because I had no malpractice on that day and they had decided not to cover my tail which was part of the contract. So now they go about telling future employers about these things. I am not sure how to defend myself as I have proof of their denial to cover tail but they want me to do their injections. In fact the higher up writes to me telling me that I do not need tail as all I did was some injections. I did not do any surgery.
How do I go about this?

Thank you
Click to expand...

Looking back to the day before you signed on for this job if you had it to do over again, what would you do differently? Do you think you ignored signs and markers that would have told you things weren't all that they were cracked up to be?
 
Read a long time ago that Fortune 500 companies make 4X. Think that was pretech revolution so number would likely be higher now. So if getting paid 500k in PP your boss should be making 2 million off you. That sounds impossible outside of PI and and its flipside indiscriminate regen med practices.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

drusso
Independence Day for Employed MD's: FTC bans Non-Competes
Replies
35
Views
2K
drusso
drusso
C
Hospital Employed, Making Sense of Financials
Replies
20
Views
2K
paindoc007
P
drusso
Doctors Employed by Hospitals Earn More than Independents...Implications for Pain?
2
Replies
75
Views
6K
Ronin1
Ronin1
PainApp2021
Looking for hospital employed interventional position
Replies
1
Views
1K
chudat
C
D
Performing Procedures Under Employer
Replies
30
Views
3K
drusso
drusso
Top