big fish in small pond?

[jhrugger]

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i was hoping to get your opinions on which is better:

1) being at the top of one's class in an unranked state med school,

2) or middle of the road at a very competitive med school.

ideally do very well in a very competitive med school, but what are your opinions on those two possible scenarios when it comes to residencies looking at you?

thanks

 

[Brickhouse]

I'd rather the first.

 

[Wednesday]

Don't think that just because you "could have gone" to a "higher ranked school" that you will necessarily be the top of the class at your unranked state school. Personally what's "better" is being happy at the school you pick (saving money is also good). But if it's about prestige, it's probably "better" to go to the ranked school no matter where in the class you are. There are MANY threads on this.

 

[jlee9531]

hmm assuming board scores are around the same (big if of course) id opt for the first...can get aoa etc...

but like you said...id like to do well in a well known school, which is prolly why i would have picked that school in the first place and not the unranked school.

 

[quideam]

Personally, i would go to the highly-ranked school. Especially considering the fact that most top-20 schools are P/F (with a few being honors/P/F), you're not really going to "rank" anywhere. Therefore, assuming the same board scores wherever you go, i'd rather not be ranked at a top school than not be ranked (possibly, since many state schools still have grades) at a state school. Of course, $$ may be an issue, but that's a whole other matter...

- Quid

 

[Rendar5]

If your ambitions are too big for the med school, you need to go out and seek a bigger one. A fish grows as big as the pond he's in. And I will marry you, Sandra Templeton!

 

[rompy]

I think you'd have a better shot at getting into a top residency from the top medical school. Your ego will probably take less of a beating at the state school though. Then again, that probably wouldn't be true if the state school was graded and the top school was P/F as mentioned earlier.

If it was me, I would go with the top medical school because of the doors that it would open in the future. I think you would probably learn just as much medicine at the state school, but you'll have to defend your school wherever you go.

-rompy

 

[Odaroloc]

The docs at my lab say that when they were choosing residents for some highly competitive positions, they were all about board scores and class rank...they said they would rather a top 5% student at Wayne State (their example not mine) than a middle of the pack student at Harvard of JHU...they said they were more likely to be "blue collar" and "hard working" med students than the Harvard et al. kids. I thought this was interesting.

 

[Chrisobean]

well just because your grades are p/f doesnt mean you are not ranked...

the dean's know who is scoring high on all the exams and getting their P's and who's barely getting by and getting their P's.

 

[emanresu]

What are your goals (besides attaining an MD)? Are you interested in academic medicine and research? If so, I would think the top ranked.

If practice is more your thing, the residency is what matters most.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

For me, I'm beginning to realize I do best with the Big Fish in a small pond concept. Even though this may not be realistic with Medical School, I still like the idea.

 

[gschl1234]

What about the rest of us who are small fish in small ponds? 😕

 

[SaltySqueegee]

Originally posted by gschl1234
What about the rest of us who are small fish in small ponds? 😕

The rest of you think your the big fish in a small pond, when actually your the small fish! 😀 😎 😉

 

[gschl1234]

Originally posted by MDTom
The rest of you think your the big fish in a small pond, when actually your the small fish! 😀 😎 😉

"The rest of you think you're the big fish in a small pond..."

Besides, I don't think I'm a big fish at all. I know I'm the small fish and would be happy just to get through it without failing a class!

 

[Tezzie]

Even at the "small ponds" it is extremely hard to stand out as #1.

I want everything so i would say - biggest fish in a big pond 😛

 

[jhrugger]

thanks for your responses. the p/f point is a really good one.

my ambitions, at least now, are for private practice not academic medicine. while i like research, i don't foresee it being important enough in my life to take time away from the clinical side.

the main reason for the original post is that i often question my decision to be a premed at hopkins, where i'm pretty average and don't stand out a whole lot. i'm afraid of the same thing happening if i am lucky enough to be admitted to a top medical school, that is, just being average and not standing out academically.

again, thanks for responses and hope for some more people to give some insight.

 

[Bones2008]

Heh. There are a lot of similarities in the concepts behind this thread and the the thread that currently hosts a battle about ivy grads receiving preferential treatment by adcoms, etc. It's interesting that when the question is posed for medical schools, no one seems to get all super bent out of shape. I wonder why this is. Maybe undergraduate pre-meds are more willing to admit that the perceived "spectrum" of medical schools actually translates into something when it comes to residency directors, whereas they are unable to do so for undergraduate colleges because they're currently in the situation and potentially feeling insecure about it. Hmmm. Any psych majors out there that wanna comment?

Anyways, to get back on topic: the USMLE is the great equalizer here. Regardless of where you're ranked at whatever med school you go to, if you get 250+ on the Step 1 you're set. It just happens that more students tend to get high scores at the "top" schools than at other ones. What might be very hard to determine, though, is whether this result is a function of: 1) a better education, or 2) those schools' ability to recruit brighter students from the onset.

 

[TRUE]

Originally posted by Bones2008
if you get 250+ on the Step 1 you're set.

Isn't that a bit high? The national average is a 215 and the average at top schools is around 225/230. I think you can do rather well for yourself with less than 250...

 

[gschl1234]

Originally posted by facted
Isn't that a bit high? The national average is a 215 and the average at top schools is around 225/230. I think you can do rather well for yourself with less than 250...

I don't know much about how the USMLE is scored. Does anyone have a link that shows scaled score vs. percentile?

 

[bokermmk]

Originally posted by quideam
Personally, i would go to the highly-ranked school. Especially considering the fact that most top-20 schools are P/F (with a few being honors/P/F), you're not really going to "rank" anywhere.

- Quid

I dont think this is true. I know of a few schools that do P/F but still rank students based on percentages within classes (even though a letter grade isnt given. In either case, a high ranked school certainly has advantages, but if you do well in any school you can secure a top residency.

 

[ATPase]

Originally posted by jhrugger
my ambitions, at least now, are for private practice not academic medicine. while i like research, i don't foresee it being important enough in my life to take time away from the clinical side... the main reason for the original post is that i often question my decision to be a premed at hopkins, where i'm pretty average and don't stand out a whole lot. i'm afraid of the same thing happening if i am lucky enough to be admitted to a top medical school, that is, just being average and not standing out academically.

Pick the small pond. It's fun to be the big fish! Especially if you're going into private practice, because then who cares what school you went to?

 

[indianboy]

Pick the small pond. It's fun to be the big fish!

Surrounding yourself by dwarves doesn't make you a giant.

Hope that Helps

P 'Excelling at mediocrity' ShankOut

 

[ATPase]

I based my above advice on the premise that the small pond is not necessarily a bad pond. It may be less prestigious than the big pond, but a small pond can still be good. If it's an entirely sucky school, then that's another story.

 

[quideam]

Originally posted by bokermmk
I dont think this is true. I know of a few schools that do P/F but still rank students based on percentages within classes (even though a letter grade isnt given. In either case, a high ranked school certainly has advantages, but if you do well in any school you can secure a top residency.

Very true, however, most of these schools will only do percentages - for instance, top quarter, top half, etc. Also, some schools don't even keep track of the grades (Yale) unless you're failing. Also keep in mind that when you apply for residencies, they don't exactly get a transcript - they get a letter written about your performance from the dean of your medical school. Coming from a fancy school could be advantageous in that regard... plus, keep in mind that many state schools may also be P/F, so you'd be in the same position with them.

Like I said, personally, I would rather try my luck at a 'top' school than go for an un-ranked school - most med students will wind up being average at any school they go to; why not be average at a top school?

 

[gschl1234]

Originally posted by quideam
Very true, however, most of these schools will only do percentages - for instance, top quarter, top half, etc. Also, some schools don't even keep track of the grades (Yale) unless you're failing. Also keep in mind that when you apply for residencies, they don't exactly get a transcript - they get a letter written about your performance from the dean of your medical school.

So, does the Dean actually get to know each student and how the student is doing all through med school? I might be going to a school with almost 200 students per class so the Dean can't possibly know everyone, can he?

 

[quideam]

No, of course not. The idea is that if you do decently (don't fail anything), you'll get the general "great student, blah, blah, blah...) letter. If you happened to be outstanding (if it's h/p/f, then got tons of honors, or did something spectacular in basic sciences), then that will get mentioned - but that's very rare. Most of the letter talks about how you did in clinical years - your performance during the first two years are summarized in one paragraph.

So, again, I would say go for the 'top' school, because they probably have big-name hospitals and clinics associated with them, where you can get to know big-name docs, etc., and get better letters of rec, etc.

- Quid

 

[Bones2008]

Originally posted by facted
Isn't [250] a bit high? The national average is a 215 and the average at top schools is around 225/230. I think you can do rather well for yourself with less than 250...

I was using a very high score just to make a point. I don't know what the average step 1 scores for the various specialties. I agree, though, that one can do well for himself if he has less than a 250.