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Billing for Med management & Psychotherapy - 99214 + 90833

Discussion in 'Psychiatry' started by Information Underload, May 27, 2015.

  1. nexus73

    nexus73 2+ Year Member

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    Who is arguing this?
     
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  3. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    I would imagine the many docs seeing 50 patients a day lol
     
  4. splik

    splik Professional Cat at Large Physician Faculty 7+ Year Member

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    i think you miss the point. If you are billing 5x level 4 visits an hour you're committing fraud. if you're seeing 50 pts a day, these would likely mostly all be stable pts (one would hope) in which case they would not qualify for level 4 coding.
     
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  5. clausewitz2

    clausewitz2 7+ Year Member

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    Or you could just be one of those docs that will tell you all about how they just love Latuda/Vraylar/Trintellix/Fatiza and gives the latest samples the rep dropped off in a transdiagnostic fashion. Just like their mentors gave everyone Depakote back when they were training...
     
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  6. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Oh well that's what I was asking, the other people are saying it's not fraud just maybe bad patient care, you're actually saying fraud meaning potential jail time...
     
  7. Amygdarya

    Amygdarya 7+ Year Member

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    It really bugs me to see in this and some other money-related threads how some medical students are eager to provide crappy psychiatric care (without even quite knowing yet what psychiatric care entails) in order to maximize their earnings :(
    Oh, and don’t tell me about medical school loans; (almost) everyone has them.
     
    resident1985 likes this.
  8. Amygdarya

    Amygdarya 7+ Year Member

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    So “just maybe bad patient care” is ok as long as you stay out of jail?
     
  9. hamstergang

    hamstergang may or may not contain hamsters 5+ Year Member

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    This is not true. If the patients are stable but on meds and have multiple issues to address, then the visits can qualify for 99214. You don't have to stay in the room long to get the criteria met.
     
    Merely likes this.
  10. resident1985

    resident1985 2+ Year Member

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    I second this you’re basically exploiting mentally ill people for financial gain how can you live with that
     
    Merely likes this.
  11. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    I really appreciate this post and agree with you completely. I would never talk about loans or even try to justify my previous posts. I am a student and am simply reflecting on what I see around me, and trying to learn as much as I can. I don't plan on seeing even close to that many patients but am reflecting on what the legal and financial possibilities are in this field. I am seeing people talk about bill 50 pts a day 99214. I am trying to learn about this and see is this legal or what's going on, posters are disagreeing because some are saying legal since no time requirement while splik disagrees.

    Tldr: just because I ask a question about something doesn't mean I will do it, learning about things doesn't make you a bad prrson/doctor.
     
  12. nexus73

    nexus73 2+ Year Member

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    Thus could also be called negligence, and may end up cutting into profit margins
     
  13. splik

    splik Professional Cat at Large Physician Faculty 7+ Year Member

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    I can tell you that if you were billing 5x level 4s every hour you'd be clearing >1million a year and would be audited and if they're medicare pts could be done for medicare fraud. level 4s still have to be a) medically necessary and b) they have to believe you have reasonably addressed everything in the allotted time. it's not possible to address every issue for every pt in 10-12 minutes if they have multiple problems to addressed... of course there are some pt visits that one could address the issues briefly and code a level 4, but for the majority... im gonna call it fraud. if anyone would like to try billing 5+ level 4 visits each hour, please let me know how it goes from your minimum security prison cell
     
  14. sweetlenovo88

    sweetlenovo88 7+ Year Member

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    Is is necessary to have a practice address to get contracted insurance rates? Can one call say they want to practice in the area to get said rates without having to sign a lease first to obtain a practice address?
     
  15. sweetlenovo88

    sweetlenovo88 7+ Year Member

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    I agree. Any thoughts on billing like this in an hour: (99214+90833, 16 min of therapy), (99214+90833, 16 min of therapy), 99213. This should generate right above $400 an hour with medicare rates.
     
  16. SeniorWrangler

    SeniorWrangler 7+ Year Member

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    You would stick out like a sore thumb in the claims data. You know the old saying, "pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered?" Yeah.
     
  17. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    i don't see how it's fraud if you're actually seeing the patients and meeting all requirements for the service...
     
  18. clausewitz2

    clausewitz2 7+ Year Member

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    They're saying that you can't do this in a credible way and would have to spend quite a lot of your life arguing with auditors who might be similarly dubious of your claims. Better document the hell out of every encounter just to make sure aaaaaand you're no longer effectively making 500 an hour.
     
  19. Armadillos

    Armadillos 2+ Year Member

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    I'm sure I'm going to be writing more sparse notes as an attending, but it's so obvious these folks saying your going to see 50 pts a day have never done any opt psychiatry. It takes a decent junk of time just to write 5 notes after a half day of resident clinic. Heck even the prospect of writing notes on 16 pts a day for 30 min followups seems super daunting to me and that would be a super cushy attending job.
     
  20. splik

    splik Professional Cat at Large Physician Faculty 7+ Year Member

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    its fraud because i say it is. which is essentially how this works. if you are billing disproportionate to anyone it raises red flags. if experts then testify to your fraudulent activity (i would personally be very happy to see rogue docs removed from practice) you're toast. a jury is not going to be happy with you raking in millions of tax payer money for being a drug dealer.

    and if everyone bills disproportionate to what the insurance companies expect they will simply dramatically reduce the compensation to account for it or stop paying for said codes entirely.
     
  21. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Very interesting point, however what gives you the authority to call someone rogue? a doc has to make 300k and if he makes 700k all of a sudden he's rogue? Maybe he actually is doing a good job with his 50 patients a day, how could you know that? Also so it's not government and taxpayer related one could just see only private insurance to remove the taxpayer aspect of it
     
  22. clausewitz2

    clausewitz2 7+ Year Member

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    "Counsel for the defendant, do you stipulate to [Dr. Splik's] qualifications?"

    "Yes, your Honor."

    Boom, authority.

    Oh so the jury instead thinks you're stealing more directly from them because the name of that private insurance is likely to be one their employer contracts with to provide them health insurance. So they'll definitely favor you if they feel you're not increasing your taxes but just increasing their insurance premiums.
     
  23. tr

    tr inert protoplasm Physician PhD Faculty 10+ Year Member

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    If your objective is to enrich yourself, overbilling Medicare or insurance is the dumbest way to go about it. Medicare reimbursement is horrible and yes they will audit you for egregious billing practices. The billing codes are structured so as to add up to about 3 RVU per hour for outpatient care, with *slight* bumps for new or very complex patients. Even getting the correct reimbursement for work you actually did out of an insurance company is a side job in itself - what you bill and what you collect are likely to be quite different.

    If you want to make $400/h then move to a rich area and charge cash, skipping the insurance headache altogether. Or learn to do a procedure like ECT, TMS, or ketamine. Or go take a look at White Coat Investor for other ideas on goosing your income stream. Just don't do Medicare fraud, it's plain stupid.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  24. PistolPete

    PistolPete Physician 10+ Year Member

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    lol! But yea, this pretty much sums it up.
     
  25. PistolPete

    PistolPete Physician 10+ Year Member

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    And agreed. If you want to make boat loads of money, OP, you gotta figure out a side business, outside of medicine. Or just work 12 hour days, 7 days a week.
     
  26. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time Physician SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    I don't think proving fraud relies much on expert testimony. However, if you are a significant outlier with medicare, the feds will investigate you. And they will find problems with your billing/coding (probably with the medical decision making component) and you will owe huge fines...
     
    Merely likes this.
  27. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Fraud that results in jail time needs to be egregious I feel like, seeing 50 patients and actually managing them which is possible in a 10 hour day, should not be considered fraud, just because a doc is very efficient shouldn't mean he goes to jail lol that's silly, however if you're literally just giving meds to people without an assessment or not even seeing people and billing, then that's obviously fraud, I mean there are psych docs seeing tons of people in clinic, I don't see people going to jail left and right...
     
  28. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time Physician SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Merely likes this.
  29. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Thank you very much for this post, essentially your saying that as long as you follow standard of care, you can bill as many 99214s per hour as you like, what do you mean by medical decision determining fraud? Like decision to prescribe medication vs not?
     
  30. Armadillos

    Armadillos 2+ Year Member

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    Where are you in your training?

    Medical decision making is a very specific term, look through the link posted by dr rack and click to the medical decision making section which has a bunch of charts.

    All that being said your still delusional if you think you can see 50 patients a day.
     
  31. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    I'm an m3, I am seeing attendings in private practice around me routinely see 50 patients in a day so I guess they must all be delusional. I have also seen other people on here post about attendings they know seeing 50+ in clinic as well so maybe we're all delusional but you..lol
     
  32. Armadillos

    Armadillos 2+ Year Member

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    Guess I can't argue with what your seeing with your own eyes, why not just ask your attending the details?
     
  33. zolof

    zolof 5+ Year Member

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    I don't know which part of the country your in but out in the real world of outpatient psychiatry this is not feasible nor sustainable, and private insurance will definitely audit. In addition good luck finding consistently returning patients when they have been seen for a mere 2 minutes. I worked next to a couple of friends of mine who were attempting to see well over 40 patients a day, what really happens? It is inconsistent. Patients do not continue to come. Majority complain. Why do you think so many people are always looking for other psychiatrists?
     
  34. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Very interesting, so one could do inpatient then have 2 clinic days to jam in like 50 patients a day so that you don't need as much volume, 3 days inpt then 2 jam packed clinic days hypothetically
     
  35. Shikima

    Shikima Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Is that adderall-strawberry or xanax-blueberry flavored psychiatry? That's a lot of jamming.
     
  36. Merely

    Merely 5+ Year Member

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    Dont hate efficiency my friend, it's undeniable some docs are more efficient and others like to chill and bs around, no need to hate on the work horses that wanna get paid

    Ps: I appreciate all the insights and at this point I'm just ****ing around
     
  37. nexus73

    nexus73 2+ Year Member

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    I've never heard of a 3 day/week inpatient job. Probably better to work a 5 day week, and jam 25 patients into 2 afternoons/evenings a week.
     
  38. phorensic

    phorensic 10+ Year Member

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    multiple 99214's per hour will lead you to a prison cell? 50 patients per day is more than a psychiatrist can handle? people making statements as if they are the final authority on these nebulous coding rules? it is no wonder that psychiatrists are near the bottom in average salary in the surveys. none of you know what the hell you are doing.
     
  39. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    Possible but then you have an overhead problem. 3 99214’s with 90833 allows time to document and fill a clinic with less needed staff.

    If you are filling 5 99214’s per hour, you have significantly more patients and associated calls/problems. There also wouldn’t be time to document. With that volume, you probably need a personal scribe, multiple patient rooms with 1 staff doing vitals/rooming patients constantly, 2+ billing staff, and probably 3-4 answering phones. Staff must be ready to book new patients constantly to keep up that volume.

    Overhead from 3 to 5 patients is probably doubling staff/office overhead. Is it worth it? I’m not sure without exact numbers.
     
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  40. hamstergang

    hamstergang may or may not contain hamsters 5+ Year Member

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    90833 requires at least 16 minutes spent just on that, so 3 per hour is 48 minutes. Then you need a little bit of time to spend on gathering the elements for 99214 -- how can you do that AND document in the remaining 12 minutes?
     
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  41. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time Physician SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    I know of psychiatrists who do this, and I have done it in the past on a senior care unit. This typically is not an employed physician (W-2). It typically is a contract job with the doctor being paid a stipend and often billing the patients directly
     
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  42. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    Document and therapize simultaneously.
     
  43. mixolyd

    mixolyd 7+ Year Member

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    I can share my coding notes. I can't post a link because it says I need more likes or something, so just like my post or PM me

    If you have 3 stable problems then that's 99214. This is fairly easy to meet in psychiatry since most have some combination of depression, generalized anxiety, social phobia, panic disorder, and insomnia. It's the purely ADHD folks that make it difficult to get a 99214. I tend to send those to PCP to handle
     
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  44. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    They don’t want them either, so I get plenty at my cash practice. Pure ADHD is a $ loser in the insurance game.
     
  45. Shikima

    Shikima Physician 10+ Year Member

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    5 mins - 99213
     
  46. Ahamis

    Ahamis 7+ Year Member

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    Can you bill 99214+90833 if the patient already has a therapist?
     
  47. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    Yes but not same day if in same group.
     
  48. splik

    splik Professional Cat at Large Physician Faculty 7+ Year Member

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    you can bill for anything whether you get paid for it is another matter altogether. where i am the crappier insurances will not pay for psychotherapy add on codes at all. the better ones will pay for this, as long as the patient is not seeing a therapist on the same day.
     
  49. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    Everyone pushes for 99214’s, even PCP’s. Most docs spend 5 min just writing out the scripts. Plus it’s a controlled substance that should prompt database lookup for abuse. It’s a time sink if done right.
     
  50. hamstergang

    hamstergang may or may not contain hamsters 5+ Year Member

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    I do this all the time and have been told it's fine with most insurances. Only Medicaid was a problem but I think that's for other reasons (in NJ, LCSWs can't bill Medicaid directly when working out of a hospital so the bills for their therapy get attached to me).
     
  51. TexasPhysician

    TexasPhysician Moderator Physician 7+ Year Member

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    I could be wrong. When I last talked to a coder, she said that 1 of 2 same facility therapy codes either gets denied or goes to insurance review. Patients were instructed to do visits on separate days. No idea if what the facility was doing actually had a good purpose.
     

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