BKA and blocks

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ethilo

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I just did a unilateral BKA the other day on a 80 kg middle-aged guy with chronic venous stasis wounds from prior DVT and associated chronic pain of the lower extremity.

For blocks I did a ss femoral with 20 mL Bupi 0.5% and then an infragluteal (about mid-thigh) sciatic catheter in which I dosed 25 mL Bupi 0.5% both placed pre-induction. Easy blocks with great anatomy and good spread of local everywhere.

Induction with 50 mg ketamine, 2 mg versed, 100 mcg fentanyl, propofol then LMA. Train track vitals through the procedure, RR 14 the entire time except occasional transient increases in RR while sewing the stump closed at the end for which I gave 1 mg dilaudid maybe 30 mins after tourniquet had come down. Total tourniquet time 20 mins.

In PACU the guy was screaming and swinging wildly, trying to climb out of bed, and terrified by his leg. He then continued to cry out in pain and got a couple mg hydromorphone and maybe 150 mcg fentanyl. He calmed down but continued to claim 8/10 of pain "where they cut off my leg." We started a bupi 0.25% infusion @ 6 mL/hr for the sciatic catheter.

He at baseline has been a difficult individual with chronic pain problems and continues to ask for all the narcs on the floor by POD1. but still I am kind of perplexed: How does he have any pain with these blocks? I mean, they were high, and the amputation was mid tib/fib.

Any insights? Would anyone do anything differently?

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I just did a unilateral BKA the other day on a 80 kg middle-aged guy with chronic venous stasis wounds from prior DVT and associated chronic pain of the lower extremity.

For blocks I did a ss femoral with 20 mL Bupi 0.5% and then an infragluteal (about mid-thigh) sciatic catheter in which I dosed 25 mL Bupi 0.5% both placed pre-induction. Easy blocks with great anatomy and good spread of local everywhere.

Induction with 50 mg ketamine, 2 mg versed, 100 mcg fentanyl, propofol then LMA. Train track vitals through the procedure, RR 14 the entire time except occasional transient increases in RR while sewing the stump closed at the end for which I gave 1 mg dilaudid maybe 30 mins after tourniquet had come down. Total tourniquet time 20 mins.

In PACU the guy was screaming and swinging wildly, trying to climb out of bed, and terrified by his leg. He then continued to cry out in pain and got a couple mg hydromorphone and maybe 150 mcg fentanyl. He calmed down but continued to claim 8/10 of pain "where they cut off my leg." We started a bupi 0.25% infusion @ 6 mL/hr for the sciatic catheter.

He at baseline has been a difficult individual with chronic pain problems and continues to ask for all the narcs on the floor by POD1. but still I am kind of perplexed: How does he have any pain with these blocks? I mean, they were high, and the amputation was mid tib/fib.

Any insights? Would anyone do anything differently?

how was his exam? did you poke him and see ?
 
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Induction with 50 mg ketamine, 2 mg versed, 100 mcg fentanyl, propofol then LMA. Train track vitals through the procedure, RR 14 the entire time except occasional transient increases in RR while sewing the stump closed at the end for which I gave 1 mg dilaudid maybe 30 mins after tourniquet had come down. Total tourniquet time 20 mins.

That is a **** ton of anesthesia for someone with a block. Obviously he has high tolerance to everything. What was his intraop blood pressure?
 
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I just did a unilateral BKA the other day on a 80 kg middle-aged guy with chronic venous stasis wounds from prior DVT and associated chronic pain of the lower extremity.

For blocks I did a ss femoral with 20 mL Bupi 0.5% and then an infragluteal (about mid-thigh) sciatic catheter in which I dosed 25 mL Bupi 0.5% both placed pre-induction. Easy blocks with great anatomy and good spread of local everywhere.

Induction with 50 mg ketamine, 2 mg versed, 100 mcg fentanyl, propofol then LMA. Train track vitals through the procedure, RR 14 the entire time except occasional transient increases in RR while sewing the stump closed at the end for which I gave 1 mg dilaudid maybe 30 mins after tourniquet had come down. Total tourniquet time 20 mins.

In PACU the guy was screaming and swinging wildly, trying to climb out of bed, and terrified by his leg. He then continued to cry out in pain and got a couple mg hydromorphone and maybe 150 mcg fentanyl. He calmed down but continued to claim 8/10 of pain "where they cut off my leg." We started a bupi 0.25% infusion @ 6 mL/hr for the sciatic catheter.

He at baseline has been a difficult individual with chronic pain problems and continues to ask for all the narcs on the floor by POD1. but still I am kind of perplexed: How does he have any pain with these blocks? I mean, they were high, and the amputation was mid tib/fib.

Any insights? Would anyone do anything differently?

I would venture to guess you had an incomplete block. If you use 0.5% bupivacaine and get full coverage of both femoral and sciatic, the patent should have zero stimulation during the procedure. The fact that he needed 1 mg of dilaudid during the case tells me that he was getting stimulated during that portion of the procedure. The tourniquet was down at that time and was only up for 20 min anyway, so it wasn't from tourniquet pain either.

For whatever it is worth, though neither way is right/wrong, I usually do a popliteal block on these patients slightly distal to the level where the sciatic splits since (in theory) you get more surface area of the nerve covered by local anesthetic.

Also, as @nimbus mentioned above, you induced him with a truckload of anesthesia. I usually give these guys a little propofol for induction, run them at 0.5 MAC of sevoflurane + propofol infusion on top. Usually they don't need anything else if you have a complete block.
 
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Perhaps he was still having some pain from the stump. I have heard that chronic opioid use decreases sensitivity of nerves to local, and the effects of local don’t last as long.
 
I routinely do BKAs under a high adductor canal and high popliteal-low sciatic block. 0.5% bupi. Generally require minimal sedation in the form of a low dose ketafol infusion and the midazolam used during the block. Also done it as fem/sciatic but didn’t notice a difference and transitioned to adductor.
 
I would have skipped the blocks and just did a spinal and hope the BKA took way less than 3 hours. By the time spinal wore off he'd be up on the floor;)
 
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OP here: Thank you all for the great feedback / discussion. Would anyone do it under MAC or still induce GA? I feel like you should be able to do MAC but I think it's potentially a pretty traumatizing experience, I might want to be reassured I wouldn't remember any possible thing if I were the patient.
 
Also, I like the idea of doing AC + popliteal. What I didn't share about this one was the original plan was AKA but then after blocks / intraop, surgeon said he thought he could salvage the knee so he switched to BKA. Also the versed / fentanyl was sedation for the blocks. Ketamine for induction in otherwise full body chronic pain opioid heavy player. I think FFP is on the most appropriate path for this guy.

FWIW, recheck POD1 and he was numb, states he was getting painful mainly when working with PT. I suspect it's from areas outside the block. There's definitely a supratentorial component with this guy.
 
One may also consider an epidural + GA. Just did a BKA yesterday in a chronic pain patient with resultant sufficient analgesia.
 
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As in not bothering with a block in an opiate-seeker?

I think this is silly and reductive, but nonetheless, normal people don't scream and go nuts when they're in pain. Sounds like you got a hyperalgesic on your hands. Incidentally, these are also the people who can potentially get the most benefit of local/regional analgesia.
 
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Spinal and surgeon places catheters next to the femoral and sciatic nerves that they just cut
 
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