Blacking out name on application

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texahn said:
Does anyone else think that we should be able to black out our last name and get rid of the ethnicity indicators in our application?
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Isn't it optional to report your ethnicity? I guess in many cases the last name does give it away.

My ethnicity and my family background is an important part of who I am. I don't think it's unfair for students' med school applications to be considered in the context of their family background.

A particular achievement can indicate different things, depending on the situation surrounding it.
 
mmmcdowe said:
How many white guys named ming or hernandez do you know?
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I've met "caucasian" people with hispanic last names...

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal. It is what it is. Just make the best with the hands you're dealt.

I'm Chinese. About as over-represented in medicine as you can get.
 
shemarty said:
I've met "caucasian" people with hispanic last names...

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal. It is what it is. Just make the best with the hands you're dealt.

I'm Chinese. About as over-represented in medicine as you can get.
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It's weird that certain groups of people are being discriminated against and you are satisfied with the status quo.
 
Last edited:
My last name is a common Black and Irish last name. But I'm Chinese. I should add this to my diversity essays!

This is all irrelevant anyway. Your 2x2 secondary photos will ruin your fun.
 
texahn said:
It's weird that certain groups of people are being discriminated against and you are satisfied with the status quo.
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It's hard to be against the horribly discriminating system when you get into the nation's top med schools as a member of the most over-represented minority group in medicine.
 
texahn said:
It's weird that certain groups of people are being discriminated against and you are satisfied with the status quo.
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Yeah because there's so few white and Asian people in medicine?
 
koko_eats said:
It's hard to be against the horribly discriminating system when you get into the nation's top med schools as a member of the most over-represented minority group in medicine.
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Heh, yeah congrats Shemarty! You did amazingly =D
 
texahn said:
Does anyone else think that we should be able to black out our last name and get rid of the ethnicity indicators in our application?
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and what happens when you interview? You don't think they will notice for most ethnicities?
 
i dont know. im OK with the race thing. its capitalism imo...they can do whatever the hell they want, even if its education. im happy that we even have good schools to go to.
 
Why is it that there are a lot of asians and white people in medicine and less blacks and hispanics?

The answer is culture, not race. Why do we even have race? We are the same species with different allele frequencies.

I think it should be more about socioeconomic status rather than race.
I understand that we need more black doctors for black patients and hispanic doctors for hispanic patients, but wouldn't it be better to create structures for socioeconomically disadvantaged students (if we believe those students to be black and hispanic) to become competitive no matter the color of their skin and stop saying that it's okay for race to make such a huge difference in admissions?
 
as vulgar as it sounds, i believe that there are indeed significant differences among races, similar to how there are differences between specific breeds of dogs.

interpret that as you like.
 
ReptarBar said:
as vulgar as it sounds, i believe that there are indeed significant differences among races, similar to how there are differences between specific breeds of dogs.

interpret that as you like.
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That does sound racist, I agree.
 
wouldn't it be better to create structures for socioeconomically disadvantaged students (if we believe those students to be black and hispanic) to become competitive no matter the color of their skin and stop saying that it's okay for race to make such a huge difference in admissions?
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Of course it is better to have everyone be competitive on an individual basis, on their own merit. This is what so many pre-college, pre-med, myriad national social programs, etc. are attempting to do. This takes decades and quite possible will not occur. Therefore, there are other mechanisms being used to benefit medical care more quickly.
 
texahn said:
I think it should be more about socioeconomic status rather than race.
I understand that we need more black doctors for black patients and hispanic doctors for hispanic patients, but wouldn't it be better to create structures for socioeconomically disadvantaged students (if we believe those students to be black and hispanic) to become competitive no matter the color of their skin and stop saying that it's okay for race to make such a huge difference in admissions?
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Yeah, they have that, it's called disadvantaged status...
 
texahn said:
The answer is culture, not race. Why do we even have race? We are the same species with different allele frequencies.
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This is a common thought among biologists who want to be politically correct, but is logically flawed thinking.

Intrinsic biological differences between ethnic populations do exist.

The primary criticism is that ethnic groups have not been sufficiently reproductively isolated for the human species to be separated into distinct races based on biology. It is accepted, however, that the human species does not mate randomly, but that cultural, geographic, and social factors affect mate selection even within the United States.

The biological result is that human genetic variation is not randomly distributed across the globe. Opponents of this position typically cite studies that reveal the amount of genetic variation between any two individuals is greatest within an ethnic group rather than between ethnic groups. More statistically valid studies, however, with as few as 20 loci have been able to accurately cluster the human species by racial identity.

Another statistic that is commonly cited by critics of ethnic identification is that the genome of any two individuals will differ by an average of only 0.1%. This difference of 0.1% between the genomes of two randomly selected individuals, however, accounts for 3 million base pairs.

It's a mistake to minimize the contribution of allelic frequencies to biological diversity, since it can accurately predict racial identity.
 
seriously? i think it is important for this country to represent itself based on its constituents.

what about asian and indian people in places like dubai or elsewhere? 99% of them work cleaning toilets and serving food. do you say its because of culture too? no, most countries like to keep the majority/group of dominance in power. places like the gulf coast have taxes returning to natives. businesses in japan rarely promote minorities to executive level. even baseball leagues in japan bench an american player if they are about to break a record. if you think about it, countries should just eliminate minorities all together. many of them do/have.


i'm from an overrepresented group in medicine. i like this country and i like the policies that are there. when bush was in power, i supported him and i'll support barack and his crew now. we voted on our representatives to make law and somewhere down the line med schools noticed that we have a diverse group of patients to tackle. some of these patients are of different races and socioeconomic backgrounds. its been cited that these groups do not receive the same care as others. the belief is that a person of a certain group is more likely to service his/her "people". I don't know if this actually works, but Affirmative Action and its likes have been there enough. I'm going to assume politicians have more data than me and spend more time thinking about what to do about this issue. They have not completely dissolved policies yet, so I'm going to guess that things are improving. I'm also going to guess that URMs will not be URMs one day. If we don't like it, we can vote differently, but you won't. You fear voting for the other party. We can ask for stricter immigration laws blah blah blah.How many things will you complain about at motherf$cking 2 am.
 
texahn said:
Is being black/hispanic an automatic disadvantage and being white/asian an automatic advantage?
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No, and the mechanism has to do with whether you are disadvantaged, not what your ethnicity is.
 
koko_eats said:
This is a common thought among biologists who want to be politically correct, but is logically flawed thinking.

Intrinsic biological differences between ethnic populations do exist.

The primary criticism is that ethnic groups have not been sufficiently reproductively isolated for the human species to be separated into distinct races based on biology. It is accepted, however, that the human species does not mate randomly, but that cultural, geographic, and social factors affect mate selection even within the United States.

The biological result is that human genetic variation is not randomly distributed across the globe. Opponents of this position typically cite studies that reveal the amount of genetic variation between any two individuals is greatest within an ethnic group rather than between ethnic groups. More statistically valid studies, however, with as few as 20 loci have been able to accurately cluster the human species by racial identity.

Another statistic that is commonly cited by critics of ethnic identification in biomedical research is that the genome of any two individuals will differ by an average of only 0.1%. This difference of 0.1% between the genomes of two randomly selected individuals, however, accounts for 3 million base pairs.

It's a mistake to minimize the contribution of allelic frequencies to biological diversity, when it can easily predict racial identity.
Click to expand...


There are also studies indicating that in early childhood, children of different races do not show any disparities in academic abilities. However, as children grow up and learn about their own culture, their academic ability begins to show disparities between races. <-- the word race should not be used here because it's CULTURE.
 
witness23 said:
seriously? i think it is important for this country to represent itself based on its constituents.

what about asian and indian people in places like dubai or elsewhere? 99% of them work cleaning toilets and serving food. do you say its because of culture too? no, most countries like to keep the majority/group of dominance in power. places like the gulf coast have taxes returning to natives. businesses in japan rarely promote minorities to executive level. even baseball leagues in japan bench an american player if they are about to break a record. if you think about it, countries should just eliminate minorities all together. many of them do/have.


i'm from an overrepresented group in medicine. i like this country and i like the policies that are there. when bush was in power, i supported him and i'll support barack and his crew now. we voted on our representatives to make law and somewhere down the line med schools noticed that we have a diverse group of patients to tackle. some of these patients are of different races and socioeconomic backgrounds. its been cited that these groups do not receive the same care as others. the belief is that a person of a certain group is more likely to service his/her "people". I don't know if this actually works, but Affirmative Action and its likes have been there enough. I'm going to assume politicians have more data than me and spend more time thinking about what to do about this issue. They have not completely dissolved policies yet, so I'm going to guess that things are improving. I'm also going to guess that URMs will not be URMs one day. If we don't like it, we can vote differently, but you won't. You fear voting for the other party. We can ask for stricter immigration laws blah blah blah.How many things will you complain about at motherf$cking 2 am.
Click to expand...


Duh
 
texahn said:
There are also studies indicating that in early childhood, children of different races do not show any disparities in academic abilities. However, as children grow up and learn about their own culture, their academic ability begins to show disparities between races. <-- the word race should not be used here because it's CULTURE.
Click to expand...
If you take a human child and a young non-human primate, I think you'll see the same cognition. Does that imply that humans and non-human primates are the same species and biologically equivalent despite what bioinformatics tells us?
 
koko_eats said:
If you take a human child and a young non-human primate, I think you'll see the same cognition. Does that imply that humans and non-human primates are the same species and biologically equivalent despite what bioinformatics tells us?
Click to expand...

If you take a dog fetus and cat fetus, they act exactly the same. Are they the same species?
 
texahn said:
If you take a dog fetus and cat fetus, they act exactly the same. Are they the same species?
Click to expand...
That's my whole point. Humans can be distinguished into different races based on allelic frequency. The fact that two things seem alike at the global scale and the fact that biologists try to be politically correct by arguing that we're members of a single human race is a logical fallacy because we are not; just like the cat and dog are not equal, despite similarities--just like the non-human primate and the human are not equal, despite similarities.
 
If you feel like you were at a disadvantage in undergrad then put it in your application.

Everyone needs a chance dont they? When you give a URM a chance for a better life, they will pass it onto their children.
 
koko_eats said:
That's my whole point. Humans can be distinguished into different races based on allelic frequency. The fact that two things seem alike at the global scale and the fact that biologists try to be politically correct by arguing that we're members of a single human race is a logical fallacy because we are not; just like the cat and dog are not equal, despite similarities--just like the non-human primate and the human are not equal, despite similarities.
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So it's okay to say black people are naturally dumber and white/asian people are naturally smarter... and you're saying everyone should just accept that.
 
texahn said:
So it's okay to say black people are naturally dumber and white/asian people are naturally smarter... and you're saying everyone should just accept that.
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I think that's a straw man argument, because nobody has said anything of the sort. I didn't say that any race was naturally smarter. What I did say is that distinct races exist contrary to what you proposed earlier. Racial identity is supported by non-random mating and can be accurately predicted by the allelic frequencies you yourself mentioned.

To deny that races exist is to ignore facts for the sake of political correctness.
 
SiR99 said:
If you feel like you were at a disadvantage in undergrad then put it in your application.

Everyone needs a chance dont they? When you give a URM a chance for a better life, they will pass it onto their children.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is true. Another reason I am happy Barack was elected to instill a different meaning of what it means to be a black person. Ask little black children what they want to be when they grow up and most of them will say president. I think that is a beautiful thing.

My attention goes to CULTURE and not race. His intelligence is not somewhere between a white person and black person. His intelligence is top notch. Anomaly in allele frequency? I don't think so.
 
koko_eats said:
I think that's a straw man argument, because nobody has said anything of the sort. I didn't say that any race was naturally smarter. What I did say is that distinct races exist contrary to what you proposed earlier. Racial identity is supported by non-random mating and can be accurately predicted by the allelic frequencies you yourself mentioned.

To deny that races exist is to ignore facts for the sake of political correctness.
Click to expand...

So you compare a human to a human and say they are different species?
 
texahn said:
So are humans and primates same species, different race?
Click to expand...
No that's what you were implying. I used that example to argue that although two things are similar, they are not the same. Although two creatures may look similar, the difference in their allelic frequencies are enough to accurately distinguish them into separate species. The similar occurs for humans in which they can be accurately separated according to racial identity even though you consider them to be the same.
 
In what ways are races different in terms of cognitive ability?
 
texahn said:
In what ways are races different in terms of cognitive ability?
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I didn't say that they were. You're the one who keeps bringing up the issue of cognition.

All I'm saying is that there are different races contrary to the second sentence in post #17 in which you suggest that there are no distinct human races.
 
koko_eats said:
This is a common thought among biologists who want to be politically correct, but is logically flawed thinking.

Intrinsic biological differences between ethnic populations do exist.

The primary criticism is that ethnic groups have not been sufficiently reproductively isolated for the human species to be separated into distinct races based on biology. It is accepted, however, that the human species does not mate randomly, but that cultural, geographic, and social factors affect mate selection even within the United States.

The biological result is that human genetic variation is not randomly distributed across the globe. Opponents of this position typically cite studies that reveal the amount of genetic variation between any two individuals is greatest within an ethnic group rather than between ethnic groups. More statistically valid studies, however, with as few as 20 loci have been able to accurately cluster the human species by racial identity.

Another statistic that is commonly cited by critics of ethnic identification is that the genome of any two individuals will differ by an average of only 0.1%. This difference of 0.1% between the genomes of two randomly selected individuals, however, accounts for 3 million base pairs.

It's a mistake to minimize the contribution of allelic frequencies to biological diversity, since it can accurately predict racial identity.
Click to expand...
.
I'm asking how do these allelic recombination events translate in terms of cognition ability differences in human races and why medical school admission people should strive to rectify "merely biological" differences?
 
texahn said:
.
I'm asking how do these allelic recombination events translate in terms of cognition ability differences in human races and why medical school admission people should strive to rectify "merely biological" differences?
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They don't, as others have pointed out. The disadvantaged/underserved section can be filled out by anyone of any race/ethnicity/culture and consists of a free response text box for an applicant's explanation. If anything, AMCAS uses that section to "rectify" differences in socioeconomic status & medically underserved populations rather than biology.
 
mmmcdowe said:
How many white guys named ming or hernandez do you know?
Click to expand...

I'm not an anglo, but my last name is obviously white. Just to remain some anonymity I'll broadly say its very distinctly eastern european. Which makes me wonder if me not disclosing my ethnicity on the application would actually hurt me since my name is obviously caucasian.
 
texahn said:
.
I'm asking how do these allelic recombination events translate in terms of cognition ability differences in human races and why medical school admission people should strive to rectify "merely biological" differences?
Click to expand...

Why don't you change your last name legally, wear a bag over your head, and gloves on your hands during interviews? If you're really intent on fooling the system, that's as close as you're going to get. Arguing over different cognition abilities is difficult to prove and essentially moot. I don't think any medical schools look at last names/ethnicities and immediately disregard them. It's just that, on average, Asian and Caucasian applicants tend to be more plentiful and more successful on academic applications in general. I personally wouldn't want to have a class of just Asian and White students which is what could easily happen if medical school adcoms weren't looking for diversity. You grow as a person being around people from different cultures, I think it's great (though I may have a conflict of interest, admittedly).
 
Longshanks said:
I'm not an anglo, but my last name is obviously white. Just to remain some anonymity I'll broadly say its very distinctly eastern european. Which makes me wonder if me not disclosing my ethnicity on the application would actually hurt me since my name is obviously caucasian.
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So disclose it. Seriously, people. You send in a photo with secondary applications, they receive your MCAT-day photo, and you show up at an interview with your real face.

Do you honestly think that not including your first name/last name/ethnicity will make an ounce of difference at the schools you're afraid will give your spot to someone less deserving?
 
I thought the point of this thread was to receive some anonymity in the application process, not to define and argue about the differences and implications of race and culture. Let's try to to remain on the original course of discussion rather than launching this into a sociopolitical tirade. Thanks.
 
Bacchus said:
I thought the point of this thread was to receive some anonymity in the application process, not to define and argue about the differences and implications of race and culture. Let's try to to remain on the original course of discussion rather than launching this into a sociopolitical tirade. Thanks.
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I think the OP can choose the focus of the thread since he's the one who made it. If he goes off on what look like tangents that fall under the realm of pre-allo, so be it. It's his thread and his discussion.
 
koko_eats said:
I think the OP can choose the focus of the thread since he's the one who made it. If he goes off on what look like tangents, so be it. It's his thread and his discussion.
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Uh oh, don't make Kate Walsh drop the hammer.
 
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