Blatant science GPA padding

[djess11190]

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I'm curious to get some other opinions on this. Today I ran into a guy I used to volunteer with. He is pre-med also so we talked a little bit about school and when we are applying. I ask him what classes he's taking and he lists all these 100 level classes! Such as Bio and Chem survey courses which are for non-majors (and he is a Bio major). We took Microbio together which is upper level so I'm like why are you taking these intro classes now (after taking upper division stuff). He just flat out told me he is doing it to raise his science GPA before he applies to med school. He told me I should do it too and says it can only help. He saw no issue in doing something like that. Now I don't have the best science GPA (3.5) because I performed not so amazingly in some physical sciences classes (not my strong suit) but I did take a lot of really difficult 300 level bio courses and worked hard to get the grades that I did in those classes. I enjoyed these classes and gained knowledge I think will be helpful for me in the future. Would I really have been better off inflating my GPA by taking easy classes like he is doing?

What I'm really curious about is whether med school admissions committees are going to notice what he did to inflate his GPA. Do they scrutinize coursework enough where it will hurt him when they see he took upper level classes as a bio major and then went back and took these easy non-major intro classes? Or are they just going to be paying attention to the GPA and MCAT and not care so much about students who do this kind of thing? Let's say someone with an average science GPA goes and takes a bunch of easy intro classes and raises their science GPA to 3.6 or 3.7. Is the increase in GPA going to outweigh the frowns that student might get from admissions committee members who notice?

 

[Syndicate]

I'm curious to get some other opinions on this. Today I ran into a guy I used to volunteer with. He is pre-med also so we talked a little bit about school and when we are applying. I ask him what classes he's taking and he lists all these 100 level classes! Such as Bio and Chem survey courses which are for non-majors (and he is a Bio major). We took Microbio together which is upper level so I'm like why are you taking these intro classes now (after taking upper division stuff). He just flat out told me he is doing it to raise his science GPA before he applies to med school. He told me I should do it too and says it can only help. He saw no issue in doing something like that. Now I don't have the best science GPA (3.5) because I performed not so amazingly in some physical sciences classes (not my strong suit) but I did take a lot of really difficult 300 level bio courses and worked hard to get the grades that I did in those classes. I enjoyed these classes and gained knowledge I think will be helpful for me in the future. Would I really have been better off inflating my GPA by taking easy classes like he is doing?

What I'm really curious about is whether med school admissions committees are going to notice what he did to inflate his GPA. Do they scrutinize coursework enough where it will hurt him when they see he took upper level classes as a bio major and then went back and took these easy non-major intro classes? Or are they just going to be paying attention to the GPA and MCAT and not care so much about students who do this kind of thing? Let's say someone with an average science GPA goes and takes a bunch of easy intro classes and raises their science GPA to 3.6 or 3.7. Is the increase in GPA going to outweigh the frowns that student might get from admissions committee members who notice?

Highly unlikely med schools will take the rigor of your course load into serious consideration. There is too much ambiguity because not all 300 level bio classes are created equal to 300 level math classes (also BCPM) or to 300 level chem/physics classes. Also, certain 300 level classes may actually be very easy at some schools. There's too much vagueness here so I highly doubt your rigor or course work can make/break you. I understand where you're coming from though. I wish some form of AP/Honors system would be used for college courses but no such system exists yet.

 

[Temperature101]

I'm curious to get some other opinions on this. Today I ran into a guy I used to volunteer with. He is pre-med also so we talked a little bit about school and when we are applying. I ask him what classes he's taking and he lists all these 100 level classes! Such as Bio and Chem survey courses which are for non-majors (and he is a Bio major). We took Microbio together which is upper level so I'm like why are you taking these intro classes now (after taking upper division stuff). He just flat out told me he is doing it to raise his science GPA before he applies to med school. He told me I should do it too and says it can only help. He saw no issue in doing something like that. Now I don't have the best science GPA (3.5) because I performed not so amazingly in some physical sciences classes (not my strong suit) but I did take a lot of really difficult 300 level bio courses and worked hard to get the grades that I did in those classes. I enjoyed these classes and gained knowledge I think will be helpful for me in the future. Would I really have been better off inflating my GPA by taking easy classes like he is doing?

What I'm really curious about is whether med school admissions committees are going to notice what he did to inflate his GPA. Do they scrutinize coursework enough where it will hurt him when they see he took upper level classes as a bio major and then went back and took these easy non-major intro classes? Or are they just going to be paying attention to the GPA and MCAT and not care so much about students who do this kind of thing? Let's say someone with an average science GPA goes and takes a bunch of easy intro classes and raises their science GPA to 3.6 or 3.7. Is the increase in GPA going to outweigh the frowns that student might get from admissions committee members who notice?

I think that guy has a good plan... Do people really think that med school look at their transcript(s) like AMCAS does? I think MOST med schools look at your GPAs, the prerequisites (if you fulfill them) and if you do well on a few upper level science classes like Genetics, biochem etc...

 

[274631]

One school that I interviewed at did say they considered the rigor of classes but for the most part I don't think it is really scrutinized by most medical schools.

 

[rfvbnmju]

MCAT may equalize it all out. He might get a lower MCAT than you.

Sent from my phone.

 

[nedsybedsy]

Also, if you're going off the numerical basis, not all schools list upper division courses in the 300 range. Some schools divide it up with 1-99 as lower division, 100-199 as upper division, and 200-299 as graduate level. Unless the course title says "introduction" or "for non-science majors," it might be difficult to discern what level the coursework is.

And on the secondary applications, the schools usually have you re-input your "required" courses (sometimes with grades), so it would be separated from those buffer courses anyway.

 

[Goro]

Oh we notice, alright. He notice too if he gets accepted an then slammed by a medical school curriculum, for which he'll be totally unprepared. In reality, he may get Is, but is more likely to be wait listed than accepted.

I'm curious to get some other opinions on this. Today I ran into a guy I used to volunteer with. He is pre-med also so we talked a little bit about school and when we are applying. I ask him what classes he's taking and he lists all these 100 level classes! Such as Bio and Chem survey courses which are for non-majors (and he is a Bio major). We took Microbio together which is upper level so I'm like why are you taking these intro classes now (after taking upper division stuff). He just flat out told me he is doing it to raise his science GPA before he applies to med school. He told me I should do it too and says it can only help. He saw no issue in doing something like that. Now I don't have the best science GPA (3.5) because I performed not so amazingly in some physical sciences classes (not my strong suit) but I did take a lot of really difficult 300 level bio courses and worked hard to get the grades that I did in those classes. I enjoyed these classes and gained knowledge I think will be helpful for me in the future. Would I really have been better off inflating my GPA by taking easy classes like he is doing?

What I'm really curious about is whether med school admissions committees are going to notice what he did to inflate his GPA. Do they scrutinize coursework enough where it will hurt him when they see he took upper level classes as a bio major and then went back and took these easy non-major intro classes? Or are they just going to be paying attention to the GPA and MCAT and not care so much about students who do this kind of thing? Let's say someone with an average science GPA goes and takes a bunch of easy intro classes and raises their science GPA to 3.6 or 3.7. Is the increase in GPA going to outweigh the frowns that student might get from admissions committee members who notice?

 

[chillaxbro]

I had a friend who was a biology major and took BIO 101 during his senior year to boost his GPA... after taking all the crazy upper division biology classes already
It's so basic and was aimed at non-science majors so it can't even count towards a biology major.
But it's in the BIO department so AMCAS probably counted it 🙄

 

[Romz]

Oh wow - my school prohibits science majors from taking science classes geared toward non majors.

You have to consider though, is he really the only one doing this?
Some of us bust our asses in school in order to excel and some others artificially inflate their accomplishments to try and match up. Just keep your head down OP and continue working hard. This is honestly why I like to keep my EC's, Grades, Research and all that to myself; I know what I got to do in order to be a strong applicant - stories like this would just probably distract and annoy me.

 

[histidine]

Just take grad level classes - they look good on your transcript, they are high level and in depth classes, and everyone gets As.

 

[listener23]

Just take grad level classes - they look good on your transcript, they are high level and in depth classes, and everyone gets As.

Grad level classes don't always count towards undergraduate GPA's

 

[histidine]

Grad level classes don't always count towards undergraduate GPA's

Really? They did at my school. You couldn't take all grad classes to fulfill undergraduate major requirements (you could sub in a couple), but they still counted in our GPA.

 

[487806]

Grad level classes don't always count towards undergraduate GPA's

It does according to AAMC calculated GPA as long as you're a currently enrolled undergrad

 

[kyamh]

In defense of seniors taking intro level courses: I didn't realize that I wanted to complete the pre-med curriculum until very late so while my sophomore and junior year were filled with upper level courses, my senior year was a walk in the park with the intro course pre-reqs 😀

 

[wiloghby]

I am currently taking BIO 101 and CHEM 58x (graduate biochemistry) at the same time. I have already been accepted to medical school. Crazy homemade post-bacc for the win!

The graduate course, however, is not an "all A" situation. The course is graded on a curve centered at a B. And I'm still willing to bet it's less grade inflated than the undergraduate courses.

 

[listener23]

At the end of the day until you receive an interview ( applicants that receive a interview are more or less viewed as on the same level) this is a big numbers game. So basically do what you got to do. Im currently taking physiology, cell bio, orgo, along with astronomy ( science gpa booster ) and Intro to chemistry ( science gpa booster). Im sure some medical school will notice me padding but a vast majority won't and the ones that do might not care. Simply because I did take upper level bios as well.

 

[MedBrah]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Do what you have to do OP

 

[Aerus]

Oh we notice, alright. He notice too if he gets accepted an then slammed by a medical school curriculum, for which he'll be totally unprepared. In reality, he may get Is, but is more likely to be wait listed than accepted.

Goro, out of curiosity, do you guys look at the course number (100, 200, 300, 400) or do you look at the title (Microbiology, Ecology, Physiology, etc.)?

 

[listener23]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Do what you have to do OP

Thats whats im saying.

 

[deleted407021]

It does according to AAMC calculated GPA as long as you're a currently enrolled undergrad

Yeah. Unless I'm mistaken, every class you take during undergrad, from every institution is counted. I have an A in german which my school doesn't count in my GPA but it will be counted in my AMCAS total. It will bump my GPA up a bit too, I hope.

 

[487806]

Goro, out of curiosity, do you guys look at the course number (100, 200, 300, 400) or do you look at the title (Microbiology, Ecology, Physiology, etc.)?

It's most very likely the latter. Course numbers are very subjective.

 

[La Presse]

I heard some students talking about easy upper division courses within the department. I took down the numbers. Hats off to them.

 

[Pattycake25]

I'm curious to get some other opinions on this. Today I ran into a guy I used to volunteer with. He is pre-med also so we talked a little bit about school and when we are applying. I ask him what classes he's taking and he lists all these 100 level classes! Such as Bio and Chem survey courses which are for non-majors (and he is a Bio major). We took Microbio together which is upper level so I'm like why are you taking these intro classes now (after taking upper division stuff). He just flat out told me he is doing it to raise his science GPA before he applies to med school. He told me I should do it too and says it can only help. He saw no issue in doing something like that. Now I don't have the best science GPA (3.5) because I performed not so amazingly in some physical sciences classes (not my strong suit) but I did take a lot of really difficult 300 level bio courses and worked hard to get the grades that I did in those classes. I enjoyed these classes and gained knowledge I think will be helpful for me in the future. Would I really have been better off inflating my GPA by taking easy classes like he is doing?

What I'm really curious about is whether med school admissions committees are going to notice what he did to inflate his GPA. Do they scrutinize coursework enough where it will hurt him when they see he took upper level classes as a bio major and then went back and took these easy non-major intro classes? Or are they just going to be paying attention to the GPA and MCAT and not care so much about students who do this kind of thing? Let's say someone with an average science GPA goes and takes a bunch of easy intro classes and raises their science GPA to 3.6 or 3.7. Is the increase in GPA going to outweigh the frowns that student might get from admissions committee members who notice?

I'm thinking his strategy is pretty transparent, since both course name (likely ones at least) AND number reveals its lack of rigor. Notice also that the one adcom who posted, Goro, was very clear that while the numbers help, it does bring you down in their eyes for the last stages of the process. I wouldn't recommend this approach unless one has something to dazzle with at the interview, AND one is prepared for a possible question that straight up calls you out.

 

[Aerus]

It's most very likely the latter. Course numbers are very subjective.

Yeah, I just wanted to see if there were any exceptions. It would be pretty suckish if a school actually used course numbers though. :O

 

[Goro]

We seem to pay more attention to the time at which the course is taken, and the title. My viewpoint is that someone who is a junior or senior would be taking anatomy or physiology or micro, rather that molecular biology, biochem or genetics, which seem to be more preparatory and taken in 1st, 2nd or 3rd year. We also look at the number of science hours taken. While I look down upon Ecology as a "fluff" course, if someone is taking that, along with, say, Limnology, Oceanic Biology, Biostats or Physics and an elective all at the same time, that's looking like a decent course load.

Keep in mind that many people get into medical school who have the base minimum of pre-reqs, and who are, say, Psych or History Majors. No padding possible there!

Goro, out of curiosity, do you guys look at the course number (100, 200, 300, 400) or do you look at the title (Microbiology, Ecology, Physiology, etc.)?

 

[histidine]

I finished a double major in sci/social sci in 3 years and spent my senior year taking completely different classes like classical music appreciation and history of photography. My school wouldn't let me graduate early without paying for all 4 years. It doesn't seem to have affected my application, and no one has brought it up on the interview trail.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

At the end of the day until you receive an interview ( applicants that receive a interview are more or less viewed as on the same level) this is a big numbers game. So basically do what you got to do. Im currently taking physiology, cell bio, orgo, along with astronomy ( science gpa booster ) and Intro to chemistry ( science gpa booster). Im sure some medical school will notice me padding but a vast majority won't and the ones that do might not care. Simply because I did take upper level bios as well.

BINGO! 75-80% of the application is about numbers. The other 20-25% comprises of your ECs, LORs, and interview etc...

 

[GypsyHummus]

We seem to pay more attention to the time at which the course is taken, and the title. My viewpoint is that someone who is a junior or senior would be taking anatomy or physiology or micro, rather that molecular biology, biochem or genetics, which seem to be more preparatory and taken in 1st, 2nd or 3rd year. We also look at the number of science hours taken. While I look down upon Ecology as a "fluff" course, if someone is taking that, along with, say, Limnology, Oceanic Biology, Biostats or Physics and an elective all at the same time, that's looking like a decent course load.

Keep in mind that many people get into medical school who have the base minimum of pre-reqs, and who are, say, Psych or History Majors. No padding possible there!

Would the ADCOM look down on someone who takes a nutrition class or astronomy class in attempt to boost DO science GPA?

 

[Goro]

Just speaking personally, I look upon nutrition classes as being helpful towards medical school, and I greatly respect astronomy classes due to their high math content (and I like the subject!)

Would the ADCOM look down on someone who takes a nutrition class or astronomy class in attempt to boost DO science GPA?

 

[notbobtrustme]

Oh we notice, alright. He notice too if he gets accepted an then slammed by a medical school curriculum, for which he'll be totally unprepared. In reality, he may get Is, but is more likely to be wait listed than accepted.

Nothing prepares you for medical school except medical school.

I took biochemistry, microbiology, molecular/cell biology, and cell signalling at a graduate level at Northwestern and scored in the top 10% of the class. While helpful, it didn't give me much of a leg up in my class. The bottom line is that the only thing that prepares you for medical school is medical school itself.

 

[Goro]

An interesting observation. I think that each person's experience is going to be unique, but we have noticed at people with non-science backgrounds seem to take longer to deal with our curriculum than the bio or chemo majors. I suspect that with some base level of exposure, the avg pre-med might handle the firehouse of knowledge that we throw at them a little more. By mid to late semester I, most people find the learning style that suits them best.

Nothing prepares you for medical school except medical school.

I took biochemistry, microbiology, molecular/cell biology, and cell signalling at a graduate level at Northwestern and scored in the top 10% of the class. While helpful, it didn't give me much of a leg up in my class. The bottom line is that the only thing that prepares you for medical school is medical school itself.

 

[Narmerguy]

We seem to pay more attention to the time at which the course is taken, and the title. My viewpoint is that someone who is a junior or senior would be taking anatomy or physiology or micro, rather that molecular biology, biochem or genetics, which seem to be more preparatory and taken in 1st, 2nd or 3rd year. We also look at the number of science hours taken. While I look down upon Ecology as a "fluff" course, if someone is taking that, along with, say, Limnology, Oceanic Biology, Biostats or Physics and an elective all at the same time, that's looking like a decent course load.

Keep in mind that many people get into medical school who have the base minimum of pre-reqs, and who are, say, Psych or History Majors. No padding possible there!

Honestly, there's no way you could know this without prior knowledge of a course. Any course can be made difficult, and the grading and class style of each professor tremendously affects how difficult it will be. Similarly, plenty of "hard sounding" courses are actually cake. Similarly, students should be free to take a course any time they please and not according to some perceived timeline of when it's appropriate to take which classes.

These are the kinds of games that I'm glad I didn't pay much attention to in college, and I encourage others to do the same. It's difficult to know which courses are going to be perceived as fluff, which courses are going to be respected, etc etc. Just do you. Just do your best. The point of college isn't to craft a medical school application, don't forget that. You need to have the confidence in yourself and your value-added for a school to believe that you don't need to spend long hours obsessing over how every course or semester will be perceived.

 

[abn632]

I'd say that taking the introductory courses prior to the major courses is a smart move if you have the time and money to do so. The intro courses probably lay a good foundation to help ensure success in the more difficult, higher level courses. Taking the intro courses after having already taken the higher level courses is...well, shady, and it's not something that I would do. However, the decision to accept him lies in the hands of the admissions committee. I will echo what Narmerguy says and that is for each of us to do our best and to do the right thing. No one is guaranteed a spot in medical school, and even after being accepted or rejected, you'll never really know what it was that made the difference.

 

[MEN2C]

Oh we notice, alright. He notice too if he gets accepted an then slammed by a medical school curriculum, for which he'll be totally unprepared. In reality, he may get Is, but is more likely to be wait listed than accepted.

Really? What about all those majors (like humanities, history etc who at most - not all - universities have massive grade inflation)? I don't think med school holds those majors against them.

 

[Pacna]

One school that I interviewed at did say they considered the rigor of classes but for the most part I don't think it is really scrutinized by most medical schools.

Same experience. Specifically at Wayne, the MD interviewer had read my file extensively to the point that he noticed AMCAS didn't give me credit for an honor's undergrad degree and that my GPA at a 4-year college was significantly higher than that at a community college.

The rest of my interviews seemed like I brought up the annoying cousin when I mentioned GPA.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Your question is really about whether the adcom will account for the difference between a top private school (think JHU, HYPS, WashU, etc.) or a lesser school or Community College. These adcoms (and many here) can tell you unequivocally: YES! It does matter where you get your undergraduate degree and YES, there is a difference.

In addition, some schools are known to be really stinging about giving out an A. And certainly some upper schools require an advisor to approve all coursework before you can sign up. But, what about those people who stay away from science courses altogether except those required for med school, like Theatre Arts, English, Communications, etc. Would you say they are also padding their transcript?

Again, it matters where you get your degree. That's the primary reason why everyone has to take a standardized test, the MCAT, to indicate how you'd do in med school: to show how prepared you are and how you'd do with all the testing that happens there.