Boston University or VCU?

[simlamblue]

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Hey guys, so I was wondering what you guys think of both of these schools. (Lets leave that psycho killer guy out of the discussion, haha) I really don't know much about BUs research environment, so that is where I was hoping you guys can enlighten me, perhaps students from BU would be awesome. I really can't find any match stats for BU either. I am interested in Oncology related research, but obviously thats not set in stone either. This decision two days ago was very easy because I just got in off the waitlist at BU.

Location wise, both have their ups and downs, and for me those kinda equal out. Financially/Funding wise BU has only has a stipend during the graduate years, whereas VCU is fully funded, VCU also has that optional 4th year, which lets us graduate a year earlier. I am guessing BUs stipend is higher, but Boston is more expensive so that sort of evens out.

So basically I wanted to know what you guys know/think about both of these schools research environment, I think as MD/PhDs thats the most important thing, and I would like to go to the best research place for me (oncology related research) Sorry for the long post, but if you guys can help me about that would be great, any info is really appreciated guys!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Not fully funded = not good.

 

[echod]

Hey guys, so I was wondering what you guys think of both of these schools. (Lets leave that psycho killer guy out of the discussion, haha) I really don't know much about BUs research environment, so that is where I was hoping you guys can enlighten me, perhaps students from BU would be awesome. I really can't find any match stats for BU either. I am interested in Oncology related research, but obviously thats not set in stone either. This decision two days ago was very easy because I just got in off the waitlist at BU.

Location wise, both have their ups and downs, and for me those kinda equal out. Financially/Funding wise BU has only has a stipend during the graduate years, whereas VCU is fully funded, VCU also has that optional 4th year, which lets us graduate a year earlier. I am guessing BUs stipend is higher, but Boston is more expensive so that sort of evens out.

So basically I wanted to know what you guys know/think about both of these schools research environment, I think as MD/PhDs thats the most important thing, and I would like to go to the best research place for me (oncology related research) Sorry for the long post, but if you guys can help me about that would be great, any info is really appreciated guys!

Can your family pay for your living expenses during your MD years? If not, you won't enjoy paying back $80K with your after tax dollars when you're 35, have a family, and only make $150K a year instead of $300K.

 

[simlamblue]

Yea, I am leaning towards VCU, the money isn't that big of a deal, because I would have to come up with rent/food for MD years (they'll pay tuition), I think the biggest plus for VCU is possibly finishing 1 year earlier versus any other program. Haven't fully made up my mind, going to be discussing with my parents, btw my parents would be living in New Jersey, so thats 2.5 hours driving to Boston, versus about 4.5 to Richmond. Thanks for your input guys, obviously D&G's comment is pretty convincing...

 

[itsallthesame]

3 pieces of food for thought:

1: As per D&G, the funding that a school puts into its program is one of the best indicators of how much the school supports the program.
2: I would NOT consider this 1 year of clinical med school as a real bonus. If you enter residency interviews with ~6 months of rotations under your belt, you will be at a HUGE disadvantage (even with a PhD) and may not match or match poorly. Flexibility to enter 3rd year when you are done the PhD is a good bonus (eg option for entering in Sept or maybe even December instead of July 1).
3: What about the professors that you interviewed with? I mean, you're going to be spending ~4 years working under one person. Check out the departments for like cell biology and see if there are people with research that excites YOU, md/phd student in the lab history, and solid publication records.

Also, it's getting late in the game. These directors would LOVE you if you took less than 2 weeks to decide. Therefore, I strongly suggest e-mailing the program director at both schools and asking for a telephone chat so you can learn more about their programs and have any questions answered.

Finally... living in boston on $25k/year would not be easy. That's $100,000 in debt. Plus ~$5k for match related expensesish. Factor in interest... you're looking at a real financial commitment here on your part, so BU better be far and above better. You could almost pay a child's college at a state school with that. Or make a serious down payment on a nice house.

 

[simlamblue]

So, I guess when you factor everything in, it really isn't that hard of a decision. I just wanted to make sure I saw all the angles and took the time to make the right decision, I definitely feel VCU is the better university probably both research and funding wise. There are already a few labs I really want to rotate in, and VCU has the flexibility of rotating back into third year during the middle. So again thanks for your guys input!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Yes Virginia, SDN does help!

 

[gstrub]

I want to touch on this "optional 4th year" topic.

Keep in mind, although there are no medical school requirements for a 4th year, the time still exists. So here are the two scenarios:

1. You finish your PhD in the summer (June-July). This means you have spent either 3 or 4 (hopefully not 5 but it has happened) full years in the lab. You begin your M3 year with the incoming M3 class in August and finish the following August. You will NOT be interviewing that year (You can't interview in Nov-Jan if you've only got 3 rotations done). That means that you still match the following March with the class you started M3 with. This, IMO, gives you the best options as you not only have a few months before interviews to do any electives/away rotations/research in your field of interest to bolster your application, but it then gives you several months off after you interview/match that you will want to have for travel/leisure before you start intern year and your life becomes temporarily suspended. You can also have Step II completed by the time you interview, which can be helpful. And if you can secure extramural funding (i.e. F30) you are still getting a stipend during that last spring, despite you never having to set foot inside the medical school.

2. You finish your PhD during the middle of the year, not around summer. Typically students who follow this path will rotate back to M3 in January a the start of the spring semester. This means you've spent 3.5 or 4.5 years in the lab (I've never heard of anyone doing it in 2.5, but our new dean is gunning for that target, which I personally think is impossible, but you never know). You would then enter M3 with a class that has been in the hospital for half a year. You do your rotations until interview season. You can postpone any rotation so that you can do electives/away rotations before your application needs to go out, as well as during the time you interview. Note that you STILL match with the M3 class you entered with. This option does save you a year technically (you get to join the M3 class half a year late), because you are not waiting for the next class.

So, barring some crazy 2.5 year PhD, you are looking at a 7 year program, even though you are done in 6, because either way you match with the M3 class you start with.

With regards to funding and VCU's program, I cannot understate the value of the new dean, Jerome Strauss, MD/PhD. He has made it clear that our program is #1 on his list or close to it. When I started, we weren't funded for M4, and we were only getting tuition waviers for med years. The first thing he did was fully fund all of us. He also has been talking about streamlining the curriculum to get us out in 6 years, but I don't know when that might happen.

Hope this helps,
G

 

[RapplixGmed]

With regards to funding and VCU's program, I cannot understate the value of the new dean, Jerome Strauss, MD/PhD. He has made it clear that our program is #1 on his list or close to it. When I started, we weren't funded for M4, and we were only getting tuition waviers for med years. The first thing he did was fully fund all of us. He also has been talking about streamlining the curriculum to get us out in 6 years
G

This. My father, who was a physician scientist for 15 years who eventually just got sick of it and went back into straight practice always said to me just get your PhD and get it done quick. Looking back from when you're an attending, every year longer that you spend will seem like a wasted year of your life, especially when you have to delay other life goals like starting a family, buying a (real) house, or paying off your undergrad debt, or starting your career research during fellowship. Richmond is also an inexpensive town compared to Boston, your stipend will go much further here. For instance, my folks own and rent out a 3 bedroom, 3 story, townhouse in a very upscale neighborhood within 15 min driving distance of the school for 1200/month for the whole thing. =O Every time I think about that place, I drool over what a steal it is.

Also, at BU did you actually meet with any research faculty? They just had me talk to a couple of deans during the interview sessions and I never got to talk to the actual researchers even though they ensured me that those researchers were "very very interested in me." Plus VCU is the big shot in town in Richmond. At Boston, you'll be perpetually living in the shadow of the whales of the research world... (or potentially collaborating with them so its a plus and minus!)

 

[echod]

This. My father, who was a physician scientist for 15 years who eventually just got sick of it and went back into straight practice

Was it hard for your father to make the decision to leave academia? What prompted him to leave after 15 years in it? What specialty was your father in? Did his specialty make it harder or easier for him to go 100% private practice? Does he regret his decision?

 

[RapplixGmed]

Was it hard for your father to make the decision to leave academia? What prompted him to leave after 15 years in it? What specialty was your father in? Did his specialty make it harder or easier for him to go 100% private practice? Does he regret his decision?

He does GI. He has a kind of a funny and loose view of it all. Basically he thinks of research as a young person's game and that if its something you REALLY want to do it, you should do it and have some fun with it. However, he also thinks that you should always look at it as something that probably will be temporary and you'll grow out of it (or not be good enough and get kicked out). He has no regrets though but then again, he never has any regrets.