MD & DO Both steps scored applicant vs step 1 P/F applicant with a step 2 score

[slowthai]

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So hypothetically, let's say you have an applicant with a 220 step 1 and a 260 step 2. Then you have an applicant with a "pass" on step 1 and a 250 step 2. All things equal, who would get the interview? Kind of a dumb question, but the NBME has basically put us in this dumb situation.

 

[libertyyne]

So hypothetically, let's say you have an applicant with a 220 step 1 and a 260 step 2. Then you have an applicant with a "pass" on step 1 and a 250 step 2. All things equal, who would get the interview? Kind of a dumb question, but the NBME has basically put us in this dumb situation.

You could have done more Zanki and dorian instead of thinking about this none sense to have a higher step 1 and 2 preventing you from having this possible problem.

 

[slowthai]

You could have done more Zanki and dorian instead of thinking about this none sense to have a higher step 1 and 2 preventing you from having this possible problem.

This question was prompted by a post I read in the step forums. I was just throwing out a hypothetical. But I'm definitely going in on Dorian post-step 1 for sure, though.

 

[wanderingorion]

I think it is impossible to answer this question. /thread

 

[longhaul3]

So hypothetically, let's say you have an applicant with a 220 step 1 and a 260 step 2. Then you have an applicant with a "pass" on step 1 and a 250 step 2. All things equal, who would get the interview? Kind of a dumb question, but the NBME has basically put us in this dumb situation.

Probably the pass/250 because I would assume (consciously or otherwise) the step 1 score would have been close to 250, and CK scores mean nothing to me. I honestly forgot my CK score the same day I got it and clearly remember going back and checking it several times throughout the rest of my 4th year when I tried to remember it.

Obviously this is only because of my own bias toward the importance of step 1, which is going to be one of the big challenges for programs and applicants when the p/f change happens. Everyone who is in a position to evaluate applicants is from the traditional, scored-step-1 world.

 

[studentdocftw]

I'd argue the 260. By making step 1 p/f, programs should effectively ignore the exam...similar to CS. Also you can't assume 250 did better on step 1, because if you made that assumption about the 260, you'd be wrong. You have to go with the data you have...so compare applicants with step 1&2, and then compare step 2 only if comparing applicants with and without step 1. This decision was awful in my opinion, because you've reduced the objective metrics, increased anxiety by only having 1 scored exam and increased gap years...as applicants wont really have much time to switch fields if you take the exam the same year you match.

 

[el_duderino]

I'd argue that neither is clearly better than the other. Both of these candidates have a very strong knowledge base, and ranking/decision making would be based on other factors.

No one is sitting around at residency ranking meetings going "candidate A had a 250 on Step 1 but B had a 245, so let's rank A higher."

 

[longhaul3]

I'd argue the 260. By making step 1 p/f, programs should effectively ignore the exam...similar to CS. Also you can't assume 250 did better on step 1, because if you made that assumption about the 260, you'd be wrong. You have to go with the data you have...so compare applicants with step 1&2, and then compare step 2 only if comparing applicants with and without step 1. This decision was awful in my opinion, because you've reduced the objective metrics, increased anxiety by only having 1 scored exam and increased gap years...as applicants wont really have much time to switch fields if you take the exam the same year you match.

I agree that this is the way it should be, and I assume the way it eventually will be, but if a PD in my specialty were looking through a pile of applications and saw a 220 on step 1, he/she would move on. In comparing the two, the assumption wouldn't be that the pass would have been higher than the same applicant's 250 on CK, but that the pass would have been higher than the other applicant's 220 on step 1.

 

[Med Ed]

All things equal, who would get the interview?

Both.

 

[Goro]

So hypothetically, let's say you have an applicant with a 220 step 1 and a 260 step 2. Then you have an applicant with a "pass" on step 1 and a 250 step 2. All things equal, who would get the interview? Kind of a dumb question, but the NBME has basically put us in this dumb situation.

Realistically, how many candidates will have both number scores after the switch to P/F?????

SDNers are advised to stop looking at exam scores as measures of your self worth. PDs will need some way stratify candidates. They're not masochists.

BTW, I remember people asking the identical question when the MCAT format changed.

 

[Dantes]

Realistically, how many candidates will have both number scores after the switch to P/F?????

SDNers are advised to stop looking at exam scores as measures of your self worth. PDs will need some way stratify candidates. They're not masochists.

BTW, I remember people asking the identical question when the MCAT format changed.

True, but with the MCAT changes schools were still able to compare percentile scores when needed. This is a little different.

 

[Mass Effect]

So hypothetically, let's say you have an applicant with a 220 step 1 and a 260 step 2. Then you have an applicant with a "pass" on step 1 and a 250 step 2. All things equal, who would get the interview? Kind of a dumb question, but the NBME has basically put us in this dumb situation.

Questions like this is why Step 1 was changed to pass/fail.

 

[slowthai]

Questions like this is why Step 1 was changed to pass/fail.

Can you elaborate?

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

Realistically, how many candidates will have both number scores after the switch to P/F?????

SDNers are advised to stop looking at exam scores as measures of your self worth. PDs will need some way stratify candidates. They're not masochists.

BTW, I remember people asking the identical question when the MCAT format changed.

This will be an issue for any current MD/PhD student graduating after 2023

 

[Goro]

This will be an issue for any current MD/PhD student graduating after 2023

Hardly.

The sky isn't falling.

 

[7331poas]

Realistically, how many candidates will have both number scores after the switch to P/F?????

SDNers are advised to stop looking at exam scores as measures of your self worth. PDs will need some way stratify candidates. They're not masochists.

BTW, I remember people asking the identical question when the MCAT format changed.

Why do you keep bringing up these takes? The MCAT was scored. That is fundamentally different than the situation here.

Hardly.

The sky isn't falling.

Sure it is. Many nsg matches are MD/PhD. Many students have great step 1 scores in order to enter that field. Now students from low tier MD schools will be unable to match nsg unless they have a "compatible" step 2 CK. The exam is so high stakes now, in such a way that step 1 never was.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

Hardly.

The sky isn't falling.

I didn't mean 'issue' in a hyperbolic sense, but this is absolutely something that MD/PhDs will be thinking about. If numeric scores from 4+ years ago are reported and compared vs P/F, it will be unfair to students who scored lower but have it reported for the world to see vs those who only have a good step 2. It will affect around 4 years worth of national MD/PhD classes.

 

[Goro]

I didn't mean 'issue' in a hyperbolic sense, but this is absolutely something that MD/PhDs will be thinking about. If numeric scores from 4+ years ago are reported and compared vs P/F, it will be unfair to students who scored lower but have it reported for the world to see vs those who only have a good step 2. It will affect around 4 years worth of national MD/PhD classes.

Our wise SDN attendings and residents beg to differ.

I'm done with this subject. Period.

 

[operaman]

Honestly I’d find some other way to distinguish them. Maybe location, how likely they would be to rank us highly, etc.

From a scores standpoint they are exactly the same. If the second one had an equivalent step 1 to his 2 it would have been about a 235 which is statistically the same as a 220 when accounting for scaling error. For me these two applicants are identical in terms of step scores and some other soft factor would end up carrying the day. In reality I wouldn’t even think that hard about it - the 250 and 260 are also identical so I wouldn’t even care about the step 1s.

 

[7331poas]

Our wise SDN attendings and residents beg to differ.

I'm done with this subject. Period.

You are the one commenting here

 

[Mass Effect]

Why do you keep bringing up these takes? The MCAT was scored. That is fundamentally different than the situation here.

Sure it is. Many nsg matches are MD/PhD. Many students have great step 1 scores in order to enter that field. Now students from low tier MD schools will be unable to match nsg unless they have a "compatible" step 2 CK. The exam is so high stakes now, in such a way that step 1 never was.

Non-MD/PhDs matched nsg before Step 1. They'll match nsg after. Frankly, I may take some heat for this, but my honest opinion is that some people couldn't care less about neurosurg or derm or ophtho, but gun for it for the "prestige." Perhaps a P/F Step 1 will quiet some of that motivation.

 

[slowthai]

Non-MD/PhDs matched nsg before Step 1. They'll match nsg after. Frankly, I may take some heat for this, but my honest opinion is that some people couldn't care less about neurosurg or derm or ophtho, but gun for it for the "prestige." Perhaps a P/F Step 1 will quiet some of that motivation.

How does that follow? Those that are going to gun are going to gun, regardless. They will do whatever it takes. And the people truly gunning for nsx may include prestige as a consideration, but passion seems to be the driving factor, by and large. You have to be willing to give everything you've got to match into the field and to become a neurosurgeon. Also, the competition for derm and ophtho seems to be largely driven by good pay and lifestyle. Prestige is definitely a component, but it's not as much of a factor imo.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

Non-MD/PhDs matched nsg before Step 1. They'll match nsg after. Frankly, I may take some heat for this, but my honest opinion is that some people couldn't care less about neurosurg or derm or ophtho, but gun for it for the "prestige." Perhaps a P/F Step 1 will quiet some of that motivation.

Doing a specialty because it's 'prestigious', especially a specialty like neurosurgery where the workload and impact on your life is definitely one of the worst ideas ever. I find it hard to believe that someone would commit to something for the rest of their life based on a nebulous sense of 'prestige.'

People obviously try to go to the best programs in their specialties, but there's often reason for that. Where you train has an enormous impact if you want an academic research career.

 

[Mass Effect]

Doing a specialty because it's 'prestigious', especially a specialty like neurosurgery where the workload and impact on your life is definitely one of the worst ideas ever. I find it hard to believe that someone would commit to something for the rest of their life based on a nebulous sense of 'prestige.'

People obviously try to go to the best programs in their specialties, but there's often reason for that. Where you train has an enormous impact if you want an academic research career.

I didn't say they commit to it. I said they gun for it. Most don't end up going that route anyway because yes, committing to a specialty you hate is a nightmare. And don't misunderstand me, the majority of people going into those fields actually ARE passionate about it and it isn't about prestige. I'm talking about a minority of people who gun for the most competitive specialties because they're competitive or because they did amazingly well on Step 1.

 

[deleted915325]

You are the one commenting here

For real. That guy makes me roll my eyes at every turn

 

[1337doc]

Our wise SDN attendings and residents beg to differ.

I'm done with this subject. Period.

oh u mad mad xDDDDDddddd