Both USMLE and COMLEX?

[oceanillusion42]

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So I've already scheduled my COMLEX date, and now I'm debating whether or not to take the USMLE. I know that with the DO/MD "merge" technically MD programs will accept the COMLEX and "view it equally" (that's what our dean has told us), tho while that's what it says on paper, I'm not convinced this will actually happen.

I'm not trying to match anything ridiculous (emergency medicine), but I'd like to do my rotations in New Jersey (my home state). There's 2 osteopathic programs in the state (one of which requires a 1 year intern year on Long Island which doesn't help me as far as staying in NJ). So by applying to MD programs I'd increase the chances of being able to stay in jersey.

I realize that my last paragraph probably answered my question for me (take both exams), but I just would appreciate any input... I'm worried that a poor USMLE score would impact me negatively and may make me look worse than if I only had taken the COMLEX but done well on it.

Thanks

 

[MrBeauregard]

You are correct that a poor USMLE score will look worse than if you hadn't taken it at all; however, a stellar USMLE score will open up options previously unavailable to you.

You need to take the USMLE. That is non-negotiable. My school tries to push that "all you need is COMLEX" crap, too.

Study harder than you've ever studied before. Use UW, FA, and Goljan/Pathoma. Do at least 3 NBMEs. Take both. Rock both. Enjoy what it does for your residency chances.

 

[sylvanthus]

So I've already scheduled my COMLEX date, and now I'm debating whether or not to take the USMLE. I know that with the DO/MD "merge" technically MD programs will accept the COMLEX and "view it equally" (that's what our dean has told us), tho while that's what it says on paper, I'm not convinced this will actually happen.

I'm not trying to match anything ridiculous (emergency medicine), but I'd like to do my rotations in New Jersey (my home state). There's 2 osteopathic programs in the state (one of which requires a 1 year intern year on Long Island which doesn't help me as far as staying in NJ). So by applying to MD programs I'd increase the chances of being able to stay in jersey.

I realize that my last paragraph probably answered my question for me (take both exams), but I just would appreciate any input... I'm worried that a poor USMLE score would impact me negatively and may make me look worse than if I only had taken the COMLEX but done well on it.

Thanks

Your dean is not being perfectly truthful with you. Comlex is not viewed "equally" at many programs. Some, absolutely, but others will have no idea how to interpret your score and may not even bother trying. Take a practice test, if you do decently, take the USMLE. Now is not the time to hesitate on doing extra work. It will pan out if you put in the time.

 

[DocVapor]

I'm certainly planning on taking both next year. I've heard a lot of people will study hard for the USMLE and take it first, and then study for the COMLEX adding in the OMM for a week or two before taking it. I think I'm going to do the opposite - study hard for the COMLEX and get it out of the way first. Then I will give myself extra time to study for the USMLE aftewards since I don't need it to move on to rotations. How long will I give myself? Not too long since I think going too far into rotations would make it difficult to keep the focus on it. I'm sure my plan might change next year as things get closer and I have a better idea of my weaknesses.

 

[MrBeauregard]

I'm certainly planning on taking both next year. I've heard a lot of people will study hard for the USMLE and take it first, and then study for the COMLEX adding in the OMM for a week or two before taking it. I think I'm going to do the opposite - study hard for the COMLEX and get it out of the way first. Then I will give myself extra time to study for the USMLE aftewards since I don't need it to move on to rotations. How long will I give myself? Not too long since I think going too far into rotations would make it difficult to keep the focus on it. I'm sure my plan might change next year as things get closer and I have a better idea of my weaknesses.

I would recommend taking USMLE first, then COMLEX. Here's why:

1. You want all of your effort to go to the USMLE. Once you take that, you'll be burned out and won't want to study for another two weeks. I'd recommend a 3 day break in between the two.

2. If you study hard for USMLE, you're studying for COMLEX as well. There's isn't really studying for one and then the other. This is, of course, not taking into account studying OMM. But it isn't like they test different things. If you study hard for USMLE you'll be well-prepared for COMLEX.

3. USMLE is detail. COMLEX is big picture. You don't want to take the big picture exam first and then have to study all those very small details (especially after you're tired and just ready to be finished). It's easier to regurgitate those details and then forget them than it is to take an exam and then delve even deeper into those details.

Make sense?

 

[deleted245139]

Gotta clarify for you esp if you are looking at EM.
1. USMLE and COMLEX are unaffected by the move for single accredidation. They will still be individual tests. I HIGHLY suggest you take both, and prepare well because...
2. EM is becoming very difficult to match in. The level of competition has skyrocketed. Find a 4th yr who is in the application cycle this year and they will all tell you the same. Some programs have received over 1000 applications. Interviews are few and far between for some. Being a DO you need the USMLE to stand on even ground, and you better have a great app to boot. The NRMP data for this cycle should be interesting, and last year, not a single EM spot was open after the match.

I just want to make sure you do into this with the right information. This is coming from a DO applying only Allo EM this cycle. Good luck to you!

 

[drerp88]

It's not that programs will eliminate you if you haven't taken the USMLE, its that preceptors seem to have a very skewed view of what a good COMLEX score is. My preceptor for my Neurology rotation who was a former PD for a large MD academic residency told me that he was under the impression that a 600 COMLEX was equal to a 230 USMLE. Considering a 230 is ~60th percentile and a 600 is around 90th, this is not ideal for a DO who only took COMLEX.

 

[oceanillusion42]

Thanks for all the responses guys, good info... much appreciated.

 

[Raryn]

It's not that programs will eliminate you if you haven't taken the USMLE, its that preceptors seem to have a very skewed view of what a good COMLEX score is. My preceptor for my Neurology rotation who was a former PD for a large MD academic residency told me that he was under the impression that a 600 COMLEX was equal to a 230 USMLE. Considering a 230 is ~60th percentile and a 600 is around 90th, this is not ideal for a DO who only took COMLEX.

I've heard similar. 500~210, 600~230, 700~250. But I really don't know personally. I've even heard some claim lower numbers for step I (500~200, 600~220, 700~240)

The percentiles really aren't comparable, because the populations are different. The average COMLEX score is 500, but from everything I've seen before the average USMLE score for DOs is substantially lower than the mid-220s that is the overall average.

 

[DocVapor]

I would recommend taking USMLE first, then COMLEX. Here's why:

1. You want all of your effort to go to the USMLE. Once you take that, you'll be burned out and won't want to study for another two weeks. I'd recommend a 3 day break in between the two.

2. If you study hard for USMLE, you're studying for COMLEX as well. There's isn't really studying for one and then the other. This is, of course, not taking into account studying OMM. But it isn't like they test different things. If you study hard for USMLE you'll be well-prepared for COMLEX.

3. USMLE is detail. COMLEX is big picture. You don't want to take the big picture exam first and then have to study all those very small details (especially after you're tired and just ready to be finished). It's easier to regurgitate those details and then forget them than it is to take an exam and then delve even deeper into those details.

Make sense?

Certainly makes sense. I knew that those were a lot of the reasons people have done it that way. Anecdotally I know some people that did it this way and had a tough time, so I was thinking about trying it differently. I've still got a whole lot more to learn between now and then, and certainly more that I need to learn about the actual tests. Thanks for the advice.

 

[thegame11]

do you need to write both if you want to get into a good family med program?

 

[docnotsopc]

I've heard similar. 500~210, 600~230, 700~250. But I really don't know personally. I've even heard some claim lower numbers for step I (500~200, 600~220, 700~240)

The percentiles really aren't comparable, because the populations are different. The average COMLEX score is 500, but from everything I've seen before the average USMLE score for DOs is substantially lower than the mid-220s that is the overall average.

well thats kind of scary
Although to be honest, 90% of my class plans on writing COMLEX and USMLE.... and very small portion of my class has any clue how to study for the USMLE, nor do very many have the work ethic to do well

 

[deleted245139]

U of Michigan Anesthesia board score cut-offs: USMLE > 200, COMLEX >600. thats the reality out there.

 

[axm028400]

I took both. I knew early on that I was interested in allopathic programs and contacted the PDs at all of the programs I was interested asking them if they had any preference towards the USMLE if I was also taking the COMLEX. One of them said yes, so I took it. Obviously, you want to put maximum effort into it if you're going to take it because all of the allopathic programs will mostly use the USMLE if its available. I took the USMLE about one week before the comlex, and did the entire USMLE World qbank. I then used the week in between to do a bunch of combank/comquest and hit OMM hard. It worked well for me. I do believe a lot of allopathic PDs aren't comfortable/don't understand the conversion of COMLEX scores (eg. passing vs. average scores).

 

[Mass Effect]

The average COMLEX score is 500, but from everything I've seen before the average USMLE score for DOs is substantially lower than the mid-220s that is the overall average.

Where can I find the average USMLE score for DOs? I didn't know that data existed.

well thats kind of scary
Although to be honest, 90% of my class plans on writing COMLEX and USMLE.... and very small portion of my class has any clue how to study for the USMLE, nor do very many have the work ethic to do well

Kind of cheeky to insult your class here on SDN, especially since it's difficult to gauge anyone's work ethic when it comes to boards.

 

[Raryn]

Where can I find the average USMLE score for DOs? I didn't know that data existed.

A lot of schools can cite internal data that I've heard secondhand. The only thing readily available from the NBME itself is reports of pass rates. http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx

Ex: In 2011, 93% of MD test takers passed, 88% of DOs. That isn't too much of a difference. But if you look back even 1 year to 2010, the pass rate for DOs was 80%. It's unclear if 2011 is an outlier or a trend yet, since it was at 80% for several years prior to that, after rising from c. 70% around the turn of the millenium.

I searched for a study to see if there's any known correlation and found

Slocum PC, Louder JS. How to predict USMLE scores from COMLEX-USA scores: a guide for Directors of ACGME-accredited residency programs. J Am Osteopath Assoc. 2006;106(9):568-569. http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/106/9/568.

Relatively small sample size, but the correlation they found among their students (in 2006) was:

USMLE 1 = 67.97 + 0.24 x comlex 1 (r^2 = 0.68)

USMLE 2 = 102.2 + 0.18 x comlex 2 (r^2 = 0.46)

If you plug in the average COMLEX of 500 into that step 1 formula, you get 188. The pass/fail margin for the USMLE. (Note: Overall DO performance as can be estimated by pass rates has increased since 2006, but there's no newer study that I can find in a cursory search).

 

[Mass Effect]

A lot of schools can cite internal data that I've heard secondhand. The only thing readily available from the NBME itself is reports of pass rates. http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx

Ex: In 2011, 93% of MD test takers passed, 88% of DOs. That isn't too much of a difference. But if you look back even 1 year to 2010, the pass rate for DOs was 80%. It's unclear if 2011 is an outlier or a trend yet, since it was at 80% for several years prior to that, after rising from c. 70% around the turn of the millenium.

I searched for a study to see if there's any known correlation and found

Slocum PC, Louder JS. How to predict USMLE scores from COMLEX-USA scores: a guide for Directors of ACGME-accredited residency programs. J Am Osteopath Assoc. 2006;106(9):568-569. http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/106/9/568.

Relatively small sample size, but the correlation they found among their students (in 2006) was:

USMLE 1 = 67.97 + 0.24 x comlex 1 (r^2 = 0.68)

USMLE 2 = 102.2 + 0.18 x comlex 2 (r^2 = 0.46)

If you plug in the average COMLEX of 500 into that step 1 formula, you get 188. The pass/fail margin for the USMLE. (Note: Overall DO performance as can be estimated by pass rates has increased since 2006, but there's no newer study that I can find in a cursory search).

Thanks for the links! I think that formula is BS and it's a shame the AOA hasn't debunked it. There's no way the average board score should be passed off as barely passing the USMLE.

 

[California2000]

Whats the recommended time between taking the USMLE and COMLEX? I scheduled the usmle first and the comlex 3 days later. Is 2 days in between the two exams enough to study the omm for the comlex?

 

[MrBeauregard]

Whats the recommended time between taking the USMLE and COMLEX? I scheduled the usmle first and the comlex 3 days later. Is 2 days in between the two exams enough to study the omm for the comlex?

Yes. That's perfect. You'll be so burned out that you'll just want to get it over with.

 

[deleted245139]

those conversion equations are worthless

 

[Charlie Hustle]

For those who took USMLE prior to COMLEX, how did you spend your time in between exams? I take my USMLE on a Friday and my COMLEX the following Tuesday, and I was planning on just going through Savarese and doing some COMLEX-style qbank questions. Should I plan on studying anything else in the three days I have off between exams?

 

[MrBeauregard]

For those who took USMLE prior to COMLEX, how did you spend your time in between exams? I take my USMLE on a Friday and my COMLEX the following Tuesday, and I was planning on just going through Savarese and doing some COMLEX-style qbank questions. Should I plan on studying anything else in the three days I have off between exams?

Since I've commented quite a few times in this thread already I figure I'll keep that trend going.

I studied 4 things:

• Viscerosomatic reflexes: very, very easy points.

• Chapman's points: I didn't have a single one, but they are also very easy points.

• Reproductive chapter in FA: helped a little.

• Micro section of FA: very good decision, especially the Gram+ and Gram- tree diagrams.

I didn't do any COMLEX-style questions but instead chose to focus on material I knew was big on COMLEX. If you wanted to cut out one of the above, make it reproductive. If you feel you don't have time to three, then cut out Chapman's. I personally think that viscerosomatics and microbiology should be two things you definitely hit.

 

[Charlie Hustle]

Since I've commented quite a few times in this thread already I figure I'll keep that trend going.

I studied 4 things:

• Viscerosomatic reflexes: very, very easy points.

• Chapman's points: I didn't have a single one, but they are also very easy points.

• Reproductive chapter in FA: helped a little.

• Micro section of FA: very good decision, especially the Gram+ and Gram- tree diagrams.

I didn't do any COMLEX-style questions but instead chose to focus on material I knew was big on COMLEX. If you wanted to cut out one of the above, make it reproductive. If you feel you don't have time to three, then cut out Chapman's. I personally think that viscerosomatics and microbiology should be two things you definitely hit.

Great, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, dude.