Bottom 5-10
- Thread starter ampaphb
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2008
- Messages
- 1,912
- Reaction score
- 28
- Points
- 4,601
fwiw, I would like to see more threads like this on SDN. Be it about colleges/med-schools/residencies/etc. People seem to be obsessed with not offending folks or pretending that "everything is pretty much the same".
As a consumer of medical training, I would like to see institutions get bashed "consumer reports" style if they aren't at the same level as others. (And if its possible to make a "Top 5/10" that is proof that all places aren't the same)
As a consumer of medical training, I would like to see institutions get bashed "consumer reports" style if they aren't at the same level as others. (And if its possible to make a "Top 5/10" that is proof that all places aren't the same)
- Joined
- May 1, 2009
- Messages
- 227
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 4,621
- Resident [Any Field]
I am curious to think what Mr. Lobel thinks are the TOP 5 Programs. I respect his opinion...thanks Steve....and I look for his posts often.
In my opinion there are 6 Top programs (Washington, RIC, Mayo, BAYLOR/UT ALLIANCE, KESSLER, and Harvard/Spaulding) and than probably 20-25 programs after them that are great and broad based for exposure, training, diversity of staff and patient cases, quality of life, ect. The other 40 programs tend to often be either good at one thing or have one or two awesome staff or experiences and seriously lacking in some pretty sig areas such as msk, sports, spine, amount of emgs, amount of procedures, time on inpatient wards ect.
I think it is good to hear about the other programs that maybe do not get the press, but have great training, great staff, and ultimately help residents get where the want to go with their PM&R careers.
Bad programs should be called out. Free speech and press. We should be objective and base it on facts. But it is important for our student doctors to know what they are getting themselves into...any program can put on a show on interview day....even a bad one.
Just glad there are not many maligant if any PM&R programs left.
I still want to know who Steve thinks is TOP 5 because maybe I am off based. 😎
In my opinion there are 6 Top programs (Washington, RIC, Mayo, BAYLOR/UT ALLIANCE, KESSLER, and Harvard/Spaulding) and than probably 20-25 programs after them that are great and broad based for exposure, training, diversity of staff and patient cases, quality of life, ect. The other 40 programs tend to often be either good at one thing or have one or two awesome staff or experiences and seriously lacking in some pretty sig areas such as msk, sports, spine, amount of emgs, amount of procedures, time on inpatient wards ect.
I think it is good to hear about the other programs that maybe do not get the press, but have great training, great staff, and ultimately help residents get where the want to go with their PM&R careers.
Bad programs should be called out. Free speech and press. We should be objective and base it on facts. But it is important for our student doctors to know what they are getting themselves into...any program can put on a show on interview day....even a bad one.
Just glad there are not many maligant if any PM&R programs left.
I still want to know who Steve thinks is TOP 5 because maybe I am off based. 😎
- Joined
- May 8, 2004
- Messages
- 4,266
- Reaction score
- 1,996
- Points
- 5,796
- Attending Physician
Programs that are bad get bashed internally by their residents. This then shows up in acgme probation or length of review cycle. Longer review cycle = better program as there is less to change and check up on.
Of course that doesn't tell the whole story but it's a starting point for applicants.
Of course that doesn't tell the whole story but it's a starting point for applicants.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2000
- Messages
- 1,796
- Reaction score
- 87
- Points
- 4,726
- Location
- California
- Attending Physician
Free speech works better if a wider range of opinions were voiced on these forums. Unfortunately, not everyone takes the time to access and/or post these forums to make their thoughts known. Sometimes program reviews tend to be unbalanced depending on the feelings or experiences of a single poster or two.
My recommendation is to take reviews into consideration, but with a grain of salt. Realistically, no one has time or money to rotate or interview everywhere, but you try your best to get as much information as possible to hopefully make some educated decisions.
My recommendation is to take reviews into consideration, but with a grain of salt. Realistically, no one has time or money to rotate or interview everywhere, but you try your best to get as much information as possible to hopefully make some educated decisions.
- Joined
- May 30, 2005
- Messages
- 23,507
- Reaction score
- 15,131
- Points
- 8,731
- Location
- Canton GA
- Website
- www.stevenlobel.com
- Attending Physician
It's OK, you can call me Doctor.
RIC, UWash, Mayo are my top 3. I have not met a bad resident/fellow from these programs. I think the next 7 in the top 10 are nearly equal and then training tapers off as far as high quality goes. EVMS, though I am an alumni, is not in my top 10.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2009
- Messages
- 349
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 4,571
- Medical Student
In terms of reputation, I haven't heard much about NYP-Columbia/Cornell. Any of you have any experience with the program there? They don't seem to appear in the rehab rankings that you've talked about in here, so I was wondering what some of you more experienced physicians and students believe?
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,182
- Reaction score
- 41
- Points
- 4,646
- Attending Physician
Yes, the rainy season only extends from September 1 - August 15.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2005
- Messages
- 8,307
- Reaction score
- 6,047
- Points
- 7,396
- Attending Physician
I would agree that UW is definitely a top 5 program and the malignant reputation no longer applies. Famous faculty, great didactics, diverse patient population. One of the best PM&R residencies to be sure, but there are still some weaknesses.
#1-too many consult months, 6-7 months last time I asked. This is for one simple reason, residents are cheaper than attendings. No resident benefits from more than 3 consult months, despite whatever the department says.
#2-Few elective months. Reason? Refer to #1
#4- The weather is awful! July-August are great, but the other 10 months are continual gray, with the sun sometimes hiding for 3 weeks straight.
(Instead of discussion on the worst 5-10 programs, I think the weaknesses of the top 5 should be pointed out. No one, particularly graduates, ever comment on these things, and even the top 5 programs aren't perfect)
#1-too many consult months, 6-7 months last time I asked. This is for one simple reason, residents are cheaper than attendings. No resident benefits from more than 3 consult months, despite whatever the department says.
#2-Few elective months. Reason? Refer to #1
#4- The weather is awful! July-August are great, but the other 10 months are continual gray, with the sun sometimes hiding for 3 weeks straight.
(Instead of discussion on the worst 5-10 programs, I think the weaknesses of the top 5 should be pointed out. No one, particularly graduates, ever comment on these things, and even the top 5 programs aren't perfect)
Last edited:
I am a recent graduate of UW, now a pain fellow, and would like to respond to Bedrock's comments:
#1: This comment is true except that the consult months are some of our best learning months. This is especially because of our awesome Level I trauma center where we see all the bread and butter SCIs, TBIs, polytraumas, etc. This experience was invaluable for my board exams.
#2: This comment is also true but beware of programs that advertise how many elective months they can give. At the UW, everything is already built into the curriculum so that you do not have to use "elective" months to get your EMGs and MSK experience.
#3: This comment is blatantly false. I just graduated and got well over 100 spinal injections during my residency, not during any elective time. We do spinal injections during our dedicated "Spine" rotations and during our MSK rotations. We also got plenty of peripheral joint injections and other procedures you would want to get during residency.
#4: This comment is basically true. The summers here are amazing. The rest of the time is somewhat hit or miss. Having said that, I have lived all over the country and have never lived in a more beautiful city in my life.
#1: This comment is true except that the consult months are some of our best learning months. This is especially because of our awesome Level I trauma center where we see all the bread and butter SCIs, TBIs, polytraumas, etc. This experience was invaluable for my board exams.
#2: This comment is also true but beware of programs that advertise how many elective months they can give. At the UW, everything is already built into the curriculum so that you do not have to use "elective" months to get your EMGs and MSK experience.
#3: This comment is blatantly false. I just graduated and got well over 100 spinal injections during my residency, not during any elective time. We do spinal injections during our dedicated "Spine" rotations and during our MSK rotations. We also got plenty of peripheral joint injections and other procedures you would want to get during residency.
#4: This comment is basically true. The summers here are amazing. The rest of the time is somewhat hit or miss. Having said that, I have lived all over the country and have never lived in a more beautiful city in my life.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2000
- Messages
- 1,796
- Reaction score
- 87
- Points
- 4,726
- Location
- California
- Attending Physician
I never got the details on how Brian Krabak got to UW, but the analogy that comes to mind currently is Pau Gasol getting traded to the Lakers...
- Joined
- May 8, 2004
- Messages
- 4,266
- Reaction score
- 1,996
- Points
- 5,796
- Attending Physician
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 1,758
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 4,771
- Location
- texas
- Attending Physician
I think the number of procedures is variable depending on interest of the resident, availability of opportunities, and luck/timing. I got over 200 spinal injections and about 80 peripheral joint injections, about 100 EMG guided botox and over 250 EMGs if I remember correctly (I think I may have posted the exact figures a while back). But I also took my elective time to rotate with ortho, rheum, anesthesia, etc. I also did a 6 months continuity clinic with a "pain" PM&R doc - and that opportunity is not availble anymore. I also rotated through our spine clinic when the fellows were studying for the board exam and taking time off to go to conferences. We also had weekend courses taught by faculty who teach at AAPMR, ISIS, and NASS courses using dummies and cadavers with real fluoro. We learned to read MRIs with neuroradiologists (not to say I am as good as a radiologist of course) and learned basic fluoro anatomy and ways to trouble shoot. We also learned how to opreate the fluoro machine.
Honestly, I don't think it's all about numbers - the QUALITY of the experience counts as much as quantity. Where I did my fellowship, the residents got a lot more numbers BUT - many of them didn't even know basic fluoro anatomy nor did they know how to set up the fluoro because the fluoro tech would already set up the injection for them, they would then be told right, left, up, down by the attending, and they would just blindly follow those commands.
Honestly, I don't think it's all about numbers - the QUALITY of the experience counts as much as quantity. Where I did my fellowship, the residents got a lot more numbers BUT - many of them didn't even know basic fluoro anatomy nor did they know how to set up the fluoro because the fluoro tech would already set up the injection for them, they would then be told right, left, up, down by the attending, and they would just blindly follow those commands.
