MD Bottom quartile for M3 grades, feeling down

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Lifeblood_20

M4
7+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
966
Reaction score
2,394
Rising M4 who just got the last of my M3 grades and it was bad. Got 4th quartile for my class. I tried my best this year but apparently I suck at playing the game to get Honors on rotations. Our grades are 60% from evals and not to say I don't have anything to improve on but I feel like rotation after rotation I had bad luck and consistently got (often nortoriously among med students) harsh evaluators/toxic teams who I could never please. Feedback range from fair criticism to generic bleh to personal attacks (one attending in my eval literally made up a story about me that did NOT happen to prove their negative feedback about me -- I'm too tired to fight it). I am pretty introverted and soft spoken, which I feel hurt me a lot. I generally have a tough skin but reading some of those feedback have my confidence shaken and I guess I just need a bit assurance that I can still become a good doctor.

I'm hoping to apply to Neuro and I don't care for top academic programs fwiw.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I'm hoping to apply to Neuro and I don't care for top academic programs fwiw.
Then don’t let it get to you. This is the great thing about not wanting NeuroSurg/Plastics. You get to enjoy yourself instead of constantly being fight or flight about not kissing enough ass.

I know people will come on here and criticize and disagree with the following advice, but as someone who is applying to a non-competitive specialty as a USMD, you don’t even need to stress about “trying your best”.

Why gives a **** about how your evaluators feel? Unlike a plastics applicant they can’t bury your aspirations and career. Also varying studies on almost all tested methods of “subjectively” evaluating student’s academic competence have found them to be worse than horse****. I dont see anything about clinical evals that would make them an exception to this.

If you are able to pass medical school, you can be a good doctor. Doing extra doesn’t prove you to be better. Some of the best clinicians I have known are Caribbean grads. Ability to kiss ass with finesse (which is a huge component of doing well in academia) does not correlate AT ALL with what would make you good at doing the actual job of a doctor in a non-academic setting (where something like 80-90% of docs actually end up).

My advice to you is

1. act in good faith

2. give a reasonable performance so that you continue to pass

3. Use the spare time and mental energy to enjoy your life
 
One of the fundamental truths about 3rd year is that it is impossible to do a good job. You are tasked with becoming competent in every core specialty in a new environment with a new workflow and limited privileges. Even things like bedside manner are hard to assess. The truth is, you won't be good until you are able to focus exclusively on one single specialty (or even a subspecialty within that specialty) and also assimilate into a stable environment. There's a reason physicians subspecialize. The most brilliant attending would still struggle to be even mildly useful if thrown around the hospital and treated like an M3. Since it's impossible to be good, all you can be is polite, teachable, likeable, and lucky.

If you didn't do so hot during M3, it's likely that you didn't have characteristics that inspired people to root for you. Sometimes it's demographics. Sometimes it's personality, lack of enthusiasm, physical appearance, or overwhelming anxiety. Some people get better teams than others, but it's rarely just luck all year long. Way more important than using your clinical grades as a measure of your future clinical ability is learning from the result. What is it about the way you conducted yourself that failed to connect with people? What can you do in the future to form a better connection?

That said, I'm going to throw another thing out there that we don't say enough: medical students and physicians come from an almost absurdly talented pool, and you deserve to feel like a top flight professional regardless of your performance. Faculty and administration are constantly nitpicking us and denying us any validation for our accomplishments. There's always something you're not good enough at, and even if there's nothing on paper, they'll pick you apart for not having a movie-worthy backstory. Like M3, it is an unwinnable game. You showed up on time every day and demolished an almost inhuman amount of work and material in a completely new, fast-paced, high-pressure environment.

If you've worked outside of medicine, you'll know that at least 1 in 3 people at any given workplace enter the building with the sole, unabashed intention of doing absolutely nothing beyond the absolute bare minimum to not get fired. Only 1 in 2 are capable of having any sort of productive conversation. Maybe 1 in 3 can master very basic skills like writing with decent grammar or setting up an excel sheet to do middle school-level math. At my pre-med school job I worked approximately 20% as much as I do now and flew past most people at the company in terms of productivity. People who are silo'd within medicine are often completely blind to how low the bar is elsewhere. They take your competence and work ethic for granted. You finished. You didn't fail your rotations or your exams. You deserve to feel proud of your accomplishment.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Honestly dude, at least for my school, honors have nothing to do with competence/medical knowledge and everything to do with who A) did the bare minimum to look like they worked hard and B) skipped out on clinical experiences as soon as possible to study harder for the shelf.

the students in my class who are the best clinicians are the ones who work 70ish hours or more a week in the hospital because they’re more worried about being a doctor than their shelf score.

Stop comparing yourself to others. You have to take responsibility for the physician you will become. Do what will let you sleep at night- who cares about your rank?

Also, do you really think that 25% of physicians are crappy doctors because someone else got an A on a test 20 years ago and they only got a B? Nah……
 
Third year grades are an absolute joke for the most part. On my first rotation, we had to send the names of everybody we worked with for an evaluation. On one team, that meant I sent one to an intern, a senior resident, and an attending. Keep in mind we rounded on the same patients together and all of them reviewed the same notes. The senior resident and attending have me all 4/5s while the intern gave me all 2/5s. Literally a complete joke/popularity contest

Also it depends which school you go to. At my school, to honor clinically, you need to get a handful of 5/5 with all others being 4+ but then the clerkship directors literally tell residents not to give students 5/5s lmao. And then they wonder why the match list sucks
 
Last edited:
I think you’ll be fine!! from what i remember you’re at a top school and 25x on step 2 is great. also you’ve always come across as a really genuine person so i’m sure your interviews will go great. rooting for you!
 
Remember, 25% of all doctors were in the bottom quartile of their class.
With a few exceptions of course, the vast majority of medical students I know have been working/studying 80+ hour weeks not only as med students, but as premeds. For years. They will continue to do so as residents.

I think comparing a group of people like this to see who can rack up the “highest score” in the video game that is medical school is a bad idea anyway.

But as long as everyone wants to do derm, we will have to stratify. But with only a few exceptions, I think the stratification is pretty meaningless when it comes to job performance
 
Third year grades are an absolute joke for the most part. On my first rotation, we had to send the names of everybody we worked with for an evaluation. On one team, that meant I sent one to an intern, a senior resident, and an attending. Keep in mind we rounded on the same patients together and all of them reviewed the same notes. The senior resident and attending have me all 4/5s while the intern gave me all 2/5s. Literally a complete joke/popularity contest

Also it depends which school you go to. At my school, to honor clinically, you need to get a handful of 5/5 with all others being 4+ but then the clerkship directors literally tell residents not to give students 5/5s lmao. And then they wonder why the match list sucks
Couldnt agree more. My school severely dc the weight of evals and focused on shelf scores. The result: high shelf scores--->honors and high step 2 scores, and we had a killer match list
 
Rising M4 who just got the last of my M3 grades and it was bad. Got 4th quartile for my class. I tried my best this year but apparently I suck at playing the game to get Honors on rotations. Our grades are 60% from evals and not to say I don't have anything to improve on but I feel like rotation after rotation I had bad luck and consistently got (often nortoriously among med students) harsh evaluators/toxic teams who I could never please. Feedback range from fair criticism to generic bleh to personal attacks (one attending in my eval literally made up a story about me that did NOT happen to prove their negative feedback about me -- I'm too tired to fight it). I am pretty introverted and soft spoken, which I feel hurt me a lot. I generally have a tough skin but reading some of those feedback have my confidence shaken and I guess I just need a bit assurance that I can still become a good doctor.

I'm hoping to apply to Neuro and I don't care for top academic programs fwiw.

You’ll be fine. Just continue to endure.
 
Top