Bowing Your Head: Part 2

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Coastie

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Bowing your head:

When do you not bow your head?

How about when an OR nurse yells at you for throwing stuff on the floor during a code/soon to be code situation, and your attending sheepishly stands there?

"Anesthesia!!! You best learn to clean up after yourself around here".

Thoughts?

Any other situations from fellow residents out there?
 
your attending doesn't want to get into any trouble because he is unlikely to be functional in a private practice environment. you have zero power as a resident.

i would calmly and professionally say - i will make sure to clean up as soon as we are done saving this patient's life. (if you're feeling frisky - i would be glad to clean this up if you want to take over taking care of this patient right now.)

bottom line, there is nothing you can do. you will never convince this person that what he/she is saying is wrong. so just take your medicine in silence.
 
Bowing your head:

When do you not bow your head?

How about when an OR nurse yells at you for throwing stuff on the floor during a code/soon to be code situation, and your attending sheepishly stands there?

"Anesthesia!!! You best learn to clean up after yourself around here".

Thoughts?

Any other situations from fellow residents out there?


Don't say anything..aka..ignore them and keep working.
 
Clearly they're not talking to you - I have never met anyone named "Anesthesia".
 
Don't say anything..aka..ignore them and keep working.
Agreed; your priority is with the patient, and if the nurse isn't saying anything directly pertinent to your task at hand with the patient, then he or she is not worth paying attention to at that time.
 
To followup, I looked at her, and said:

I said: " Excuse me, but I'll take care of that after I take care of our crashing patient ".

She continued to yap.

I then said:

"Patient first, trash second."


Later on (hours later), the attending quietly said to me: "that was appropriate, the way you handled it".

So, why didn't the attending speak up when she was going off on me in front of 10 people in the OR? Some of these academic guys kill me.
 
"So, why didn't the attending speak up when she was going off on me in front of 10 people in the OR? Some of these academic guys kill me."

unfortunately, Medicine brings in smart guys that have been walked in all their lives. don't look further than Obama bending us over before u ask why doctors are pushovers.

stand your ground. One nurse in the OR in a similar situation started shouting at me because (I had an ICU pt crashing for acute abdomen) no trash bag had been set up, and i was throwing my trash on the ground.
i looked at her and stated "I went to medical school so i didn't have to deal with trash. that is your job, so do it or stop complaining."
granted I got a lot of grief from OR personnel, BUT no one treats me with disrespect because they don't want a tongue lashing.
My opinion - ancillary staff are like bullies. Pick and choose your battles. you will always lose the war, but walk with your head high and some respect. No nurse shouts at a surgeon, so why shout at me? once you show that you respect everyone (I have nothing but the utmost respect from the janitor to the staff surgeon, calling everyone sir and ma'am, Yes including the janitors), but won't take BS for no reason (I have been shouted at for things i did wrong and i accepted it), then you can walk around with your head hi.
my opinion.
 
Sorry, i'm closing in on 30 yo with MD behind my name, married 5.5y, 2 kids... i don't take $hit from anybody. People now this, cases go smoothly, i work hard, patient are happy most surgeons are.
Funny thing nobody gives me $hit.
The one CT surgeon who tried after 8h of and LVAD on a dead patient was told to FO.
People prey on the weak, several residents who don't talk up for themselves get picked on. I guess it depends on your personality...
 
So what's the worst that can happen if you tell a nurse off? can you get fired?
Should you not even take $hit when it's your frist month of your intern year?
What about an attending yelling at you for something that wasn't your fault or that you didn't do? Do you say it wasn't me it was Joe (my classmate) or do you simply take it and then tell Joe off later to not F-Up again... that way showing the attending that you're a team player...
 
The worst that can happen????

I didn't take any $hit my entire four years of residency.

I chewed out a srub tech one time that told me I was getting too close to the field. I dressed-down a nurse in the ICU, deservedly so, and I made another one cry when she almost killed a patient during a planned extubation. I yelled at a surgeon my intern year. I frequently argued vociferously with who I perceived to be "idiot" anesthesia attendings when they suggested something I thought was not the best clinical course of action. I regularly spoke my opinion loudly and freely.

The result?

I made a lot of friends. I made a lot of enemies. Admired by some, hated by others. There are people who, in the past couple of weeks, have asked me where I'm going, what I'm doing, what's next... etc. There are people who still won't look me in the eye, let alone say "hi", when I pass them in the hallway for something that happened three years ago.

What's the worst that can happen?

I pretty much burned a bridge because I will never be invited back to attend at my current institution. Do I care? Not really. However, people have impressions of you, whether they reflect the actual "you" you are. I'm respected because I do good work. I'm feared, in some instances, because I can be unpredictable in my mood. I don't know if this is a good thing, because I may not always be right or have the right information... and someone may fear speaking up lest I unleash on them.

I hate, a lot of the time, what happens in the hospital. But, this is the profession I've chosen. People are petty. They see this, a lot of the time, as only a "job"... a place to punch the clock then go home. Yet, I see some people who "care too much" and they irritate me as well. And, I know I can be this way sometimes. And, I know I've pissed some people off because of my appearing to think I "knew better" in certain situations... even if I really did know better.

That's what I've learned.

Be reasonable. Ignore stupidity. Do what's right. You don't have to uncork on someone who's probably just trying to bait you. Take a deep breath. Do what you would do anyway. If you bark back, or try to retaliate, you're going to probably only escalate something you will later wished you'd just walked away from.

Apologize, even if later and even if you weren't 100% at fault, when there is a wrong done. It's amazing what this can accomplish. How you will be remembered is mostly a nebulous, fuzzy, not-necessarily-true accumulation of impressions you have left. And, you don't want that to be someone that others fear or want to avoid. You don't want that to be "Oh, copro? Yeah, I remember him... man, that dude was angry all the time" whether you actually were or not.

People have long memories. This is a small industry. Observe and learn to emulate those who keep their cool. It may seem like they are "weak" or spineless at the time. But, later you'll understand that their demeanor probably actually belies someone who is just confident and above the pettiness.

It's hard, being a resident, to take $hit from people sometimes. Been there, done that. And, as a resident, your right to bitch is one of the few things you have. But, as I move on to being an attending, I've figured out that this is not going to get me very far in life. And, I just hope that I never have to rely on some of those people I've deeply offended over the past few years going to bat for me. I have tail coverage leaving my institution. I hope I don't need it. And, I hope that some of those people, clearly whom I've outgrown both in knowledge and skill who "taught" me over the past few years, don't ever have to sit in court and tell a jury their version of me... what I did or didn't do in a particular situation and how I handled myself.

Remember that.

-copro
 
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The worst that can happen????

I didn't take any $hit my entire four years of residency.

I chewed out a srub tech one time that told me I was getting too close to the field. I dressed-down a nurse in the ICU, deservedly so, and I made another one cry when she almost killed a patient during a planned extubation. I yelled at a surgeon my intern year. I frequently argued vociferously with who I perceived to be "idiot" anesthesia attendings when they suggested something I thought was not the best clinical course of action. I regularly spoke my opinion loudly and freely.

The result?

I made a lot of friends. I made a lot of enemies. Admired by some, hated by others. There are people who, in the past couple of weeks, have asked me where I'm going, what I'm doing, what's next... etc. There are people who still won't look me in the eye, let alone say "hi", when I pass them in the hallway for something that happened three years ago.

What's the worst that can happen?

I pretty much burned a bridge because I will never be invited back to attend at my current institution. Do I care? Not really. However, people have impressions of you, whether they reflect the actual "you" you are. I'm respected because I do good work. I'm feared, in some instances, because I can be unpredictable in my mood. I don't know if this is a good thing, because I may not always be right or have the right information... and someone may fear speaking up lest I unleash on them.

I hate, a lot of the time, what happens in the hospital. But, this is the profession I've chosen. People are petty. They see this, a lot of the time, as only a "job"... a place to punch the clock then go home. Yet, I see some people who "care too much" and they irritate me as well. And, I know I can be this way sometimes. And, I know I've pissed some people off because of my appearing to think I "knew better" in certain situations... even if I really did know better.

That's what I've learned.

Be reasonable. Ignore stupidity. Do what's right. You don't have to uncork on someone who's probably just trying to bait you. Take a deep breath. Do what you would do anyway. If you bark back, or try to retaliate, you're going to probably only escalate something you will later wished you'd just walked away from.

Apologize, even if later and even if you weren't 100% at fault, when there is a wrong done. It's amazing what this can accomplish. How you will be remembered is mostly a nebulous, fuzzy, not-necessarily-true accumulation of impressions you have left. And, you don't want that to be someone that others fear or want to avoid. You don't want that to be "Oh, copro? Yeah, I remember him... man, that dude was angry all the time" whether you actually were or not.

People have long memories. This is a small industry. Observe and learn to emulate those who keep their cool. It may seem like they are "weak" or spineless at the time. But, later you'll understand that their demeanor probably actually belies someone who is just confident and above the pettiness.

It's hard, being a resident, to take $hit from people sometimes. Been there, done that. And, as a resident, your right to bitch is one of the few things you have. But, as I move on to being an attending, I've figured out that this is not going to get me very far in life. And, I just hope that I never have to rely on some of those people I've deeply offended over the past few years going to bat for me. I have tail coverage leaving my institution. I hope I don't need it. And, I hope that some of those people, clearly whom I've outgrown both in knowledge and skill who "taught" me over the past few years, don't ever have to sit in court and tell a jury their version of me... what I did or didn't do in a particular situation and how I handled myself.

Remember that.

-copro

thanks for the reply.
 
i like to give people the benefit of the doubt. maybe your attending was deep in thought as how to proceed with the urgent situation, what to do next, what to get next, if they should call for help and/or how to direct you and the other OR staff.... or maybe, you're right and they are a putz. 😎

in any case, i try to get through the day with some quiet dignity and strength and rise above the petty crap that is thrown at anesthesia residents over the drapes regularly. i'm sure some people may THINK i'm a doormat but many attendings and nurses who have worked with me commend me for my sense of calm and tell me that they feel safe when i'm in the room.

when i am tested, i just try to repeat Jet's 'bow your head' mantra and think about some of the repercussions that copro has so eloquently scribed above in addition to looking forward to the mad bling coming to me when those heavy paychecks start to drop!
 
Here is my advice

Always know when to pick your battles and whom to pick them with. But you cant pick any battles unless you are good at what you do. You have to be well respected by your attendings before you cause any drama otherwise they'll look at it as if its always your fault. Remember first impressions go a long way. If that requires staying a little longer to finsh a case, doing some extra work to help someone else out,etc...

Also remember never complain to attendings about having to work to hard, thats the worst thing you can do, yeah so you work an extra hour, you go home an hour later pissed or happy (if your praised), you go to bed and forgot about it. To your attendings your team player, someone who is reliable, someone they want to help

On the flip you bitch about that hour, you go home pissed, kick your dog, slap the wife, comeback the next day and your dept has labeled you as a lazy mistake they should have never accepted.

As far as respect goes. Many nurses in academic settings think they are always smarter then residents or atleast superior to them. Who cares thats why they are nurses. The key is ignore them. Dont even look her way and keep doing what your doing as long she doesnt interfere with you, the minute she interferes, destroy her and tell her to leave and then write her up.

Anyways just my thoughts
 
Never throw a fellow resident under the bus.
always start strong. if u are getting shouted at in the beginning, say "Sorry sir". demonstrate your competency before fighting back. Don't argue with your attending then proceed to push sux in a patient that was paralyzed 1 month ago.
respect all nurses so that if one disrespects, you can shout back. that way you aren't an Ahole to ALL nurses.
respect everyone until they don't respect you. I have a 2 strike rule. first time, i ignore rudeness as moodiness that everyone in the hospital has from time to time. second time i strike back. everyone has their own temperment. develop your own. but KEEP YOUR DIGNITY. my dad taught me that, and you should learn it too. Unless you start telling a nurse she is a humongous hippo that can't get laid and has a gonnorrhea, you shouldn't get fired for firing back remarks in a rude rebuttal
 
water off a duck's back. It's not what goes in a man that makes him dirty, it's what comes out.
 
As someone who's 12 days from being done with residency, I can't think of a single time during my residency that verbal altercations with a nurse or surgeon really worked out in my favor.

Naturally, I was always, indisputably in the right 🙂 during those exchanges. But virtually every fight, small or large, ultimately had to be justified, defended, and explained to someone who had power over me.

I don't know. They're going to let me graduate. Maybe that means I had more room to get mouthy and reflect abuse.
 
I have a buddy of mine.. smart guy, really smart....
One of the smartest guys I know...
One of those would have passed the writtens as a CA-1
Fellowship trained, hearts
Piss poor attitude...
Talked back to the surgeons and nurses...
Of course usually right...
I talked to him on the last day of residency..
told him dude- I know you are bright, super competent...
but you got to swallow it...
you got to pick your battles..
you can't fight every fight....

well.. he got a gig out of fellowship
Busy practice, doing hearts and general anesthesia
he didn't play well with others.
The sandbox is small...
if you kick up a lot of sand,
when the dust clears....
you'll get thrown out the sandbox...

he'll never work in LA ever again....
he's toxic.. hell he might never work in Cali again,
or the entire West Coast..

dude's been out of a job for 8 months
dont be that dude....

I'm no pushover, but I don't sweat the small stuff...
I treat everyone with respect and I get the same back

drccw
 
I won't deny that I've lost my temper with friends, classmates, and my students on occasion. But it's definitely not something I'm proud of. Having to apologize for making an a** out of yourself after you calm down is never a pleasant position to be in.

Someone mentioned picking your battles, and that's true. But how you fight those battles is just as important as which battles you pick. You can be totally right about something, but the way you handle it can make you wrong. Shouting back at someone who is shouting at you only proves that you are just as unprofessional as the other guy. You're much better off being the bigger (wo)man. What better way to knock the fight out of someone shouting at you than to calmly tell him or her something to the effect of, "You're obviously upset. Let's discuss this later," and then disengage. If you refuse to fight, what is the other guy going to do, keep shouting to himself about how mad you're making him?
 
Good points.

I agree with above. I have had a total of 2 "Verbal spats", and one of them was more along the lines of "calm down, i am the doctor, so I will prescribe the drugs" in this crashing patient. I hope i didn't come across as Robin hood of residents, starting spats. I have been shouted at plenty more times than I have said anything back. But, after you have earned the respect of others and proven you are a classy, generous, respectful human being, standing up for yourself in completely appropriate situations where someone is obviosuly inappropriate is acceptable
 
The never engaging approach can work wonders. I worked in a customer service position where I received calls from a lot of pissed off people. The worse they were, the nicer and more polite I would be. This doesn't mean I would do what they wanted, but I would just never fight back with them. They would usually shut up pretty quick.

I did the same thing in most of my jobs. It's too easy for it to seem like you are in the wrong even if you are just responding to someone else's ignorance. You can stand up for yourself by your actions, which doesn't mean you have to say anything unprofessional.
 
When I feel that rising, defensive attitude rising in me from some stinging remark, I remind myself to shut-up! Don't say anything. Take a breath. Just be professional. Never let them see you sweat. It works wonders. While everyone may not be my bosom buddy, I don't have any enemies and I don't feel awkward around anyone.
 
I don't bow my head, I clench my fist! Has worked so far...
 
Later on (hours later), the attending quietly said to me: "that was appropriate, the way you handled it".

So, why didn't the attending speak up when she was going off on me in front of 10 people in the OR? Some of these academic guys kill me.

to see how you would handle yourself?
 
One of the earlier posters made the point of picking your battles, and being good at what you do. I could not agree more.

Ex: Earlier this year I chewed out a nurse once when she kept interfering with my attempts to provide optimal care to a patient that I had just resuscitated (despite the surgeon's attempts to sabotage me). This was right after I had chewed her out earlier for spreading false rumors about me. She avoided me unless absolutely necessary after that, and I made it plain that I didn't care. Several weeks later she starts talking and is civil again. What happened? I was praised, in front of the nurse, by the OB department chairman and my attending for my role in the resuscitation. So the nurse felt stupid.

I can confidently say that, although I am moving, I can come back as an attending anytime in my program. This is because I have left good impressions and basically have not burned any bridges.

Be patient. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. When you get too stressed, remember why you went into medicine (anesthesiology in particular) to begin with.
 
I use the same wisdom I learned as a little kid when dealing with difficult personalities/situations in the OR. It's called the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Treat everyone with respect.

First concern is always patient safety, if somebody endangers that you can calmly explain why their course of action is dangerous.

Some people just can't be dealt with rationally, so don't sweat it. Just ignore them as much as you can and deal with the situation calmly with supervisors later.

I don't think I've ever once gotten into a shouting match in the OR. I've had people yell at me for the stupidest things (surgeons, techs, nurses, etc), but nothing kills them quicker than a smile and quick wit.
 
Don't bow your head, cool heads prevail.

If you need to throw stuff on the floor, throw it on the floor, be professional. I would not even bat an eye at some bitchy nurse making a comment like the one listed in the OP. Simply ignore her initial comment.

The best thing is to calmly and politely ask her by her first name to do something that is ABSOLUTELY HER JOB that she is not doing. Then inform her your name is Dr. Smity (or whatever).

You could tell her to call for more help, get the defibrillator, or something that she should have been doing other than bitching at you. But most importantly, use her first name, and then inform her you are Dr. and then do not respond to "anesthesia"

Also, don't be an outright prick to nurses, or anyone in front of your attendings, or in front of anyone. You will regret it if you do, and almost guarantee you will not be offered an attending position/good letter of recommendation at your home institution.
 
act professionally, whenever possible take the high road. putting someone in their place w a cool head and a professional tone that makes them feel stupid is much more effective than a snotty remark. don't, whatever you do, come off as flustered or let them think they got to you, some of them feed on that....
 
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