Brown and Dartmouth...what's the deal?

[doctorleospaceman]

I am looking for schools to apply to using the MSAR, and noticed that both Brown's and Dartmouth's medical schools have low 10th percentile GPAs (percentile is 3.4-3.5). I believe I remember hearing that Brown had a lot of undergraduate bias, but was hoping for some clarification regarding both schools because it seems too good to be true.

Thanks in advance.

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[ChrisMack390]

Brown takes a lot of their own undergrads while Dartmouth takes a lot of nontrads.

Both are known for kind of "quirky" applicants with interests in the arts and such.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

Guessing playing the recorder in 5th grade won't count... thanks!

 

[ChrisMack390]

I wasn't saying you need that type of interest to apply! I think that Brown has a particularly holistic review, which could push down the 10th percentile GPA. The median is still 3.75 so its not as if they only go for low GPA artists.

 

[piii]

Both are fine, solid medical schools but would be considered "middle tier" in the medical community. The prestige/tier of an undergrad doesn't always transfer to the graduate schools.

 

[DrBowtie]

Undergrad Ivy League prestige is not directly translatable to medical school prestige.

 

[ErbB1]

Brown and Dartmouth both have highly holistic review processes. They don't value GPA and MCAT scores as much as other higher tier medical schools (which, I think is how it should be, to be frank). People like to make themselves feel better by saying they are 'middle tier', but in reality both of the schools are just highly particular in the type of student they try to recruit.

 

[DrBowtie]

Brown and Dartmouth both have highly holistic review processes. They don't value GPA and MCAT scores as much as other higher tier medical schools (which, I think is how it should be, to be frank). People like to make themselves feel better by saying they are 'middle tier', but in reality both of the schools are just highly particular in the type of student they try to recruit.

....and middle tier. Nothing to do with incoming stats.

 

[ErbB1]

....and middle tier. Nothing to do with incoming stats.

Then by what metric? US News rankings? They explicitly state a significant factor in those rankings are incoming class GPA and MCAT scores. So according to you, they are middle tier but that has nothing to do with incoming stats, even though incoming stats are typically used as a metric in rankings? Seems like circular reasoning.

I would argue that a more reasonable way to rank medical schools would be strictly based on research funding normalized to the size of the medical institution. But thats just my opinion.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Then by what metric? US News rankings? They explicitly state a significant factor in those rankings are incoming class GPA and MCAT scores. So according to you, they are middle tier but that has nothing to do with incoming stats, even though incoming stats are typically used as a metric in rankings? Seems like circular reasoning.

I would argue that a more reasonable way to rank medical schools would be strictly based on research funding normalized to the size of the medical institution. But thats just my opinion.

Actually research funding and output by faculty (the latter of which is essentially taking into account institutional size) are major parts of the ranking. So is peer evaluation, which has nothing to do with selection factors (at least not directly). MCAT and GPA are a minor component of USNEWS rankings.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/medical-schools-methodology

I mean I think there are still major shortcomings to those rankings (why not measure outcomes, like how much students publish or how many match to their first choice residency, for example), but the school's being discussed are not "middle-tier" because they don't select students the same way as other places (and most places claim they have holistic admissions to some degree).

 

[DrBowtie]

Then by what metric? US News rankings? They explicitly state a significant factor in those rankings are incoming class GPA and MCAT scores. So according to you, they are middle tier but that has nothing to do with incoming stats, even though incoming stats are typically used as a metric in rankings? Seems like circular reasoning.

I would argue that a more reasonable way to rank medical schools would be strictly based on research funding normalized to the size of the medical institution. But thats just my opinion.

Experience, reputation etc. Its soft factors not number crunching in some algorithm. Those two just don't go in the same sentence as the others in the medical world.

 

[piii]

Then by what metric? US News rankings? They explicitly state a significant factor in those rankings are incoming class GPA and MCAT scores. So according to you, they are middle tier but that has nothing to do with incoming stats, even though incoming stats are typically used as a metric in rankings? Seems like circular reasoning.

I would argue that a more reasonable way to rank medical schools would be strictly based on research funding normalized to the size of the medical institution. But thats just my opinion.

lol dartmouth is 50th in NIH funding and brown is 78. US news uses funding/faculty in their calculation as well, which is heavily weighted. They also have middle of the pack residency director scores.

Face it, they are middle tier schools. It's okay if you attend one!

 

[ErbB1]

lol dartmouth is 50th in NIH funding and brown is 78. US news uses funding/faculty in their calculation as well, which is heavily weighted. They also have middle of the pack residency director scores.

Face it, they are middle tier schools. It's okay if you attend one!

Thats why I said normalized to size of school or faculty volume. If it were purely on raw NIH funding, then massive state schools like Ohio State and Colorado would be ranked higher based of their sheer size.

Whatever, maybe you all are right. I would just personally rank both of them in the 20-30 range. Not saying top tier, or top 20. But I don't believe they are 'Middle tier' .......idk.

 

[ridethecliche]

lol dartmouth is 50th in NIH funding and brown is 78. US news uses funding/faculty in their calculation as well, which is heavily weighted. They also have middle of the pack residency director scores.

Face it, they are middle tier schools. It's okay if you attend one!

I loled

Thats why I said normalized to size of school or faculty volume. If it were purely on raw NIH funding, then massive state schools like Ohio State and Colorado would be ranked higher based of their sheer size.

Whatever, maybe you all are right. I would just personally rank both of them in the 20-30 range. Not saying top tier, or top 20. But I don't believe they are 'Middle tier' .......idk.

On what grounds? Because the things that people have posted are what makes the 'rankings'. Residency scores etc considered.

 

[piii]

Thats why I said normalized to size of school or faculty volume. If it were purely on raw NIH funding, then massive state schools like Ohio State and Colorado would be ranked higher based of their sheer size.

Whatever, maybe you all are right. I would just personally rank both of them in the 20-30 range. Not saying top tier, or top 20. But I don't believe they are 'Middle tier' .......idk.

Alright lets use your ranking system of NIH funds/size. This is taken from US News:

Brown - $118,000/faculty
Dartmouth - $103,000/faculty

Now lets look at some obvious top tier schools in the top 20:

Harvard - $150,000
JHU - $188,000
Penn - $177,000
Yale - $234,000
Northwestern - $147
Pitt - $184,000

Now lets look at some "middle tier schools" ranked anywhere from outside top 20 all the way to 60s

UVA - $112,000
BU - $107,000
OSU - $97,000
UMass - $104,000
Temple - $158,000


So where does brown and Dartmouth fit? Obviously, "tiers" are more than stats alone, more than funding alone, etc. But by your system Temple is on level of Penn and NU!

 

[ciestar]

Dartmouth still admits it has a softspot for its own premeds/graduates.

 

[Mad Jack]

Dartmouth is a hippy school. Brown favors non-traditional applicants from top undergrads (including their own).

 

[deleted482591]

BTW, I had a long time faculty of Brown describe the inherent snobbery of the place when he got there 30 years ago

How can Brown be snobby? They should be kissing HYP ass

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

I just looked into the MSAR (all hail the MSAR, literally the pre-med bible ) because you made it sound like unless you're both an artist with a good GPA or family's been going to brown since before the invention of the polio vaccine (well, maybe before then) you didn't have a shot. It says, applications:interviews:matriculated is 88:26:18 (which is really good for in-staters but that isn't limited to people only at Brown, there are other universities in RI.....right?) But compared to a total of ~8200 applications with 126/144 of the matriculating class being OOS, that's really not so bad if you didn't go there.

Edit: sorry to bump an old one but now I want to know

 

[LizzyM]

I just looked into the MSAR (all hail the MSAR, literally the pre-med bible ) because you made it sound like unless you're both an artist with a good GPA or family's been going to brown since before the invention of the polio vaccine (well, maybe before then) you didn't have a shot. It says, applications:interviews:matriculated is 88:26:18 (which is really good for in-staters but that isn't limited to people only at Brown, there are other universities in RI.....right?) But compared to a total of ~8200 applications with 126/144 of the matriculating class being OOS, that's really not so bad if you didn't go there.

Edit: sorry to bump an old one but now I want to know

More like invention of the smallpox vaccine (1796, 32 years after Brown was founded).

In-state/OOS means RI but not every Brown grad is a RI resident as many Brown students will identify as being from their home state where they went to HS, where their parents still live, etc or where they moved after graduating from Brown. Also, not every RI resident went to a university in RI. One can be a legal resident of any of the 50 states and be a student or alumnus of Brown.

Secondly, I do believe that the MSAR stats include the applicants who are admitted into a direct from HS program where they are guaranteed a slot in the med school if they meet some minimum requirement as an undergrad at Brown. That could suppress the matriculant GPA while not having a major impact on median GPA.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

Hmm, that's a strikingly obvious point. No wonder I suck at CARS. Anyways, you're right about the smallpox vaccine bit haha.