Brown w/ $$ vs. Mich; last minute HELP!

[aloepathic]

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So I just finished up Second Look weekend at Brown and am completely torn between Brown, where I have received money, and the University of Michigan, where I have received nothing.

I went to school in the East, but am from the midwest, and love Ann Arbor and Providence both. I want to go into a surgical specialty (probably Ortho or one of the surgical parts of Ophth, like Occuloplasty) and would like to end up practicing in the Midwest long term, but am completely open on the question of where I want to do my residency (I just want it to be the best residency I can match into). I do know I'm not interested in primary care and definitely want to do surgery.

WHAT DO I DO!?!?!

 

[doctor712]

Hey, congrats on getting into these two fine MD schools!!! Of course you're the only one who can make this decision and more goes into it than you've shared, or will share, on SDN.

But superficially at least, I am edging toward Michigan at this point. The ONLY real reason I say this is because you want to practice in the Midwest. If you wanted to practice in the East, I'd say Brown.

I think you'll have a chance to REALLY plant some networks over the 4 years at Michigan that will take you far in the Midwest, where Michigan is last time I checked. I know a few Docs who did this sort of thing, they planned early, had their business minds going from day one, and are really reaping the practice rewards now that they're attendings. This is why I say go Mich.

At this point, EITHER school will get you a good residency chance AS LONG AS YOU PERFORM WELL In EITHER SCHOOL.

IF there is a reason you feel you wouldn't perform well in either, then you have that info. Big class vs small class, PBL vs traditional, I'm not certain about these schools in these regards, so, be true to yourself and figure this out.

Also, even IF the money at Brown is enormous, I would consider following my advice above. Some will argue that you can go to Brown, save $$ with your scholarship, go to residency in Midwest and start networking when you're out there after med school. And that's fine, if you can pull it off.
Remember, if you want to go to residency out west, Mich is closer to do aways and "make friends" there.

Food for thought, hope I've helped. Follow your gut. And keep us posted.

D712

 

[redlight]

Michigan wins here.

It's got a better rep in medicine and ideal location if you want to end up practicing medicine in the mid west.

Not that you should focus on which school would help you place into a better residency... but directors (and peer institutions) rate Michigan much more favorably:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=9747&d=1202244217

 

[Acherona]

How big is the $ difference? Are we talking 10K or 100K here?

Honestly it's a little ridiculous to choose your med school based on where you think you might want to practice in 9 yrs. If you were dead set on residency in the midwest I might lean a little towards Michigan, but I mean the midwest is probably the least competitive area of the country to get a residency and being from there originally will help as well. So I wouldn't worry about that too much.

p.s. everyone on SDN will always tell you to go to the school with the better reputation because, all else being equal, this is probably good advice. But all else is rarely equal.

 

[doctor712]

How big is the $ difference? Are we talking 10K or 100K here?

Honestly it's a little ridiculous to choose your med school based on where you think you might want to practice in 9 yrs. If you were dead set on residency in the midwest I might lean a little towards Michigan, but I mean the midwest is probably the least competitive area of the country to get a residency and being from there originally will help as well. So I wouldn't worry about that too much.

p.s. everyone on SDN will always tell you to go to the school with the better reputation because, all else being equal, this is probably good advice. But all else is rarely equal.

Not from what I hear. I've spoken to many Attendings about this and there are many reasons to attend school, and/or residency, in the area where you want to practice.

And frankly, I don't think you have to be a med student to plan this way. Some of us non-trads out there have had extensive business and networking backgrounds. Learning medicine at med school is one thing, learning to network and be SMART about business practices and ideas, is something else. So, I respectfully disagree with Acherona.

D712

 

[aloepathic]

So I think I could probably place a little higher in the class at Brown than at Michigan, but I test pretty well (top couple percentile in MCAT, LSAT, and GRE, took them to teach for Kaplan) and think I could probably end up at least in the top half of the class at either place. How high do I need to be if I'm going to place into, say, ophth?

 

[Acherona]

Not from what I hear. I've spoken to many Attendings about this and there are many reasons to attend school, and/or residency, in the area where you want to practice.

And frankly, I don't think you have to be a med student to plan this way. Some of us non-trads out there have had extensive business and networking backgrounds. Learning medicine at med school is one thing, learning to network and be SMART about business practices and ideas, is something else. So, I respectfully disagree with Acherona.

D712

Look, thousands of people every year move to a different location for med school, residency, fellowships, and jobs. We live in a mobile society. If you want to go to the midwest and stay there for the rest of your life, yea fine maybe it will make "networking" a little easier. But how much impact this will ultimately have on your career is not something you can predict and I think the effect will be negligible at best, esp for medical school. Residency is more a time where you start putting down career roots. The other reason I say this is I think there is a very good chance, after doing med school or residency in another location, that the OP's priorities will change or he'll get married/divorced whatever, and won't even care about practicing in the midwest anymore.

 

[Acherona]

So I think I could probably place a little higher in the class at Brown than at Michigan, but I test pretty well (top couple percentile in MCAT, LSAT, and GRE, took them to teach for Kaplan) and think I could probably end up at least in the top half of the class at either place. How high do I need to be if I'm going to place into, say, ophth?

wow making that prediction based on med school rankings is really silly. Believe it or not there are people gunning for the top of the class at every single medical school and i highly doubt you will have a significantly easier time at one vs. the other. Go to the school that doesn't rank, problem solved.

 

[doctor712]

Look, thousands of people every year move to a different location for med school, residency, fellowships, and jobs. We live in a mobile society. If you want to go to the midwest and stay there for the rest of your life, yea fine maybe it will make "networking" a little easier. But how much impact this will ultimately have on your career is not something you can predict and I think the effect will be negligible at best, esp for medical school. Residency is more a time where you start putting down career roots. The other reason I say this is I think there is a very good chance, after doing med school or residency in another location, that the OP's priorities will change or he'll get married/divorced whatever, and won't even care about practicing in the midwest anymore.

like i said, i disagree. ive seen MANY med students get into their home residency programs because, well, they were AT their home programs. also, you mention impact being something you cannot predict, then you go on to make a prediction. look, im simply saying that if you want to live in the midwest, i think going to school in that neck of the woods isnt a bad idea. sure, go to P&S and practice in LA 7 years later, not a problem, all im saying is, if you are making a choice about what school to attend, here's some geographic food for thought.

i feel that it all starts with med school. and even before. it's all about laying down roots. you say that happens, or starts, more in residency. in some regards yes, in some, no. i know plenty of med students annoying the Cards attendings to do research and get rotations and observerships in so they can get into IM and then Cards. if that's not networking, in med school, i dont know what is. SURE, i agree, we live in a mobile society, yet, when we want to go to the office every day in LA, we dont live in NY. well, at least most of us dont. 😎
D712

 

[Acherona]

If you are doing your residency or practicing in NYC, and want to move to LA, guess what, you can apply for jobs in LA. For most specialties it's really not that hard to get a job as a physician in your location of choice, if that's what you want. If you are that worried, then by all means go ahead and plan your entire life out based on very small differences, I just don't think it's that productive. Btw I didn't make a prediction, I did the exact opposite, refute his prediction that he will for sure want to live in the same place a decade from now. It's really very difficult to predict life's vagaries, try as we might. In addition there is a lot to be said for not spending your entire life at the same institution, in fact this is expressly discouraged in academia.

I think we can agree to disagree on this point.

 

[PremedIowa]

Tell Michigan what you are thinking and about your other offer and see if they would be able to match it. From what I have heard, Michigan regularly matches other financial aid offers.

 

[drizzt3117]

I would go with UM, much better school in any case, and if you want to stay in the Midwest, you shouldn't even be giving Brown any thought.

 

[aloepathic]

1) I've already tried to leverage an offer out of Michigan and was unsuccessful (I'm not Shemarty, apparently).

2) The difference is me graduating with $30k of debt (Brown) versus $100k (UMMS). Does the fact that even at Michigan I'd be graduating with (relatively) manageable debt make a difference?

3) I and my long-term (4 year) girlfriend are both from the Midwest, and although I understand that you can't predict the future, I have to make some assumptions on which to base my decision and one of them is that I want to practice in the Midwest near my family. As a completely separate question, does that mean I need to do my residency in the Midwest?

 

[VincentAdultman]

You're going to have to balance the financial aspect vs the personal happiness aspect when seleting between the two schools, which is obviously a personal decision. I will say, however, that going to Brown over UM is not going to be a deal-breaker if you want to practice in the Midwest. Going to Brown will not prevent you from getting a residency in the MW. Then again, you may not want to be in the MW in the next 4 years, and you may find that you are into PC vs a surgical spec.

I would not, however, make a decision based on "peer rankings." Especially when deciding between Brown and U of Mich. The difference to you personally will likely be negligible.

 

[scarletgirl777]

1) I've already tried to leverage an offer out of Michigan and was unsuccessful (I'm not Shemarty, apparently).

2) The difference is me graduating with $30k of debt (Brown) versus $100k (UMMS). Does the fact that even at Michigan I'd be graduating with (relatively) manageable debt make a difference?

3) I and my long-term (4 year) girlfriend are both from the Midwest, and although I understand that you can't predict the future, I have to make some assumptions on which to base my decision and one of them is that I want to practice in the Midwest near my family. As a completely separate question, does that mean I need to do my residency in the Midwest?

30k? That must be a helluva scholarship! And I agree about the Midwest being a less difficult place to move to in general. It always seems to be harder to get jobs in the big coastal cities.

 

[redlight]

Michigan...😀

lol you want to go to Brown because you think you'd have a better shot at being at the top?! stop scheming. go to the program that best suits your talent set (Michigan 😀). go where you will likely receive better training. who cares if you are a few spots higher in class rank at Brown than at Michigan? i hear grades in the first two years don't really matter anyways [compared to things like clerkships and boards], which is likely a key reason why so many schools are P/F. now which school has better clinical training?

 

[redlight]

You're going to have to balance the financial aspect vs the personal happiness aspect when seleting between the two schools, which is obviously a personal decision. I will say, however, that going to Brown over UM is not going to be a deal-breaker if you want to practice in the Midwest. Going to Brown will not prevent you from getting a residency in the MW. Then again, you may not want to be in the MW in the next 4 years, and you may find that you are into PC vs a surgical spec.

I would not, however, make a decision based on "peer rankings." Especially when deciding between Brown and U of Mich. The difference to you personally will likely be negligible.

haha nice avatar!

 

[sunset823]

I would actually say Brown (and this is coming from an obsessive Wolverine) - I know you want to practice in the Midwest, but this is not hard to do coming out of Brown - I know people at both, and I actually LOVED Brown's curriculum (they didn't love me as much, haha), but the small class size and the concentrations there made the currriculum very innovative. You will for sure have no problem matching somewhere prestigious - there is the obvious thing that most people will stay in the region where they are in school, but both Brown and Michigan are national-level school that will be recognized anywhere

And this whole networking thing is kind of a moot point - while I love Ann Arbor, there isn't tremendous networking potential here, it's not like it's Chicago. I mean, if your family is near Ann Arbor, then I see the networking issue come into play, otherwise it'll do nothing for you, A2 is not really close to any major metro areas (except Detroit, and I know residencies there are not competitive, due to the city's undeserved reputation)

Given these are equally great schools, I would say take the money and run with Brown

 

[drizzt3117]

I would actually say Brown (and this is coming from an obsessive Wolverine) - I know you want to practice in the Midwest, but this is not hard to do coming out of Brown - I know people at both, and I actually LOVED Brown's curriculum (they didn't love me as much, haha), but the small class size and the concentrations there made the currriculum very innovative. You will for sure have no problem matching somewhere prestigious - there is the obvious thing that most people will stay in the region where they are in school, but both Brown and Michigan are national-level school that will be recognized anywhere

And this whole networking thing is kind of a moot point - while I love Ann Arbor, there isn't tremendous networking potential here, it's not like it's Chicago. I mean, if your family is near Ann Arbor, then I see the networking issue come into play, otherwise it'll do nothing for you, A2 is not really close to any major metro areas (except Detroit, and I know residencies there are not competitive, due to the city's undeserved reputation)

Given these are equally great schools, I would say take the money and run with Brown

How are they equally great schools?

I think UMich makes sense for a number of reasons. First of all it has a much better national reputation than Brown for a number of reasons. A huge percentage of Brown's class is from their PLME BS/MD program. Furthermore, UMich is a research powerhouse and has a much broader national reputation. Brown isn't a bad school but they get a lot of mileage by being in the Ivy League. If your end goal is to practice in the Midwest, UM is a better choice. Being able to graduate with only 100k in debt from there is awesome also!

 

[aloepathic]

How are they equally great schools?

I think UMich makes sense for a number of reasons. First of all it has a much better national reputation than Brown for a number of reasons. A huge percentage of Brown's class is from their PLME BS/MD program. Furthermore, UMich is a research powerhouse and has a much broader national reputation. Brown isn't a bad school but they get a lot of mileage by being in the Ivy League. If your end goal is to practice in the Midwest, UM is a better choice. Being able to graduate with only 100k in debt from there is awesome also!

Just to ask an ignorant/uninformed question, how exactly will the reputation help me out? Does it help you get better residency placements?

 

[drizzt3117]

Just to ask an ignorant/uninformed question, how exactly will the reputation help me out? Does it help you get better residency placements?

It will help in a number of different ways. Certainly you'll have myriad research opportunities with top researchers in the field (U Mich has about 8 times the research funding of Brown), better networking opportunities with an enormous, far-flung alumni network, top notch faculty, a more diverse class (due to PLME), and generally you'll be a more viable candidate nationwide, just due to the brand name. Top 40 NIH schools do significantly better in residency match, also (Brown was #82 in 2008 apparently).

 

[VincentAdultman]

It will help in a number of different ways. Certainly you'll have myriad research opportunities with top researchers in the field (U Mich has about 8 times the research funding of Brown), better networking opportunities with an enormous, far-flung alumni network, top notch faculty, a more diverse class (due to PLME), and generally you'll be a more viable candidate nationwide, just due to the brand name. Top 40 NIH schools do significantly better in residency match, also (Brown was #82 in 2008 apparently).[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, are you kidding me?

I'm sure those poor med students at lil' old Brown are really going a'wantin with respect to qualtiy spots because no one outside of the Providence area has heard of the place. Oh, and can you give any objective evidence of that last sentence?

Graduating from a non-ranked east coast medschool, I matched in the midwest (a competitive specialty BTW). It can't be THAT hard.