BS/MD or Typical Undergrad

[KnightDoc]

Yea I read the percentiles. These are for matriculants. As you can see, even a 510 is at the 80th percentile, which is the lowest percentile at which I'd feel comfortable rolling the dice. YMMV.

I think you might be conflating test takers, applicants and matriculants. The published percentiles are for all test takers, not just matriculants, over the three year period from 2017-19. In fact, that's why a 510, which is 80%-ile of all test takers, is at or below the 10%-ile of matriculants at many schools. Obviously, many people who don't do well on the test do not ultimately apply, and many of those applying with sub 80 %-ile scores do not matriculate. That said, there is clearly a huge difference between a 510 and a 523!

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[EdgeTrimmer]

Shocking, not funny!!! Terribly lazy. Approximately 1/3 of all matriculants go straight through from UG. After accounting for the approximately 5% that come from direct entry programs, that leaves around 25%. Who do these advisors think they are, if not 4.0/523 Ivy grads with 1500 hours of ECs, including some unique ones, and a mid author publication??? Unbelievable!! Happily, she was smart enough to know better!!!

I see some adcoms doing same here. I still say 100-200 hrs of clinical hours are enough if they are done passionately not for box checking. Same goes with non-clinical. I know more than n=1 to come to that conclusion.

 

[KnightDoc]

I see some adcoms doing same here. I still say 100-200 hrs of clinical hours are enough if they are done passionately not for box checking. Same goes with non-clinical. I know more than n=1 to come to that conclusion.

Eh. You know I REALLY hate sticking up for the adcoms, but I honestly don't see that.

I think you are confusing their saying that gap years are always useful, since they always provide valuable experience and opportunities to mature, with them saying they are always necessary. I think they are as well aware as anyone that 3.9+/520+ applicants with decent ECs don't need a gap year, since, presumably, they are on the committees admitting these people every year. They know 1/3 of matriculants don't have gap years, and they know who these people are.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Eh. You know I REALLY hate sticking up for the adcoms, but I honestly don't see that.

I think you are confusing their saying that gap years are always useful, since they always provide valuable experience and opportunities to mature, with them saying they are always necessary. I think they are as well aware as anyone that 3.9+/520+ applicants with decent ECs don't need a gap year, since, presumably, they are on the committees admitting these people every year. They know 1/3 of matriculants don't have gap years, and they know who these people are.

Even going with that, I question the wisdom of recommending gap years for maturity and experiences when kids like you already spending lot of hours on ECs during academic year and summer and then accumulating big debts. However I am just a parent with no expertise in admissions.

 

[KnightDoc]

Even going with that, I question the wisdom of recommending gap years for maturity and experiences when kids like you already spending lot of hours on ECs during academic year and summer and then accumulating big debts. However I am just a parent with no expertise in admissions.

You're absolutely right. It's just that, in the end, applicants that aren't 3.9+/520+, with typical ECs, just aren't competitive when compared to applicants with similar stats and an additional 2,000 hours of ECs that are obtained during a productive gap year. It shouldn't be necessary, but is in a world where 2/3 of matriculants have at least one gap year.

 

[Dr.K124]

You're absolutely right. It's just that, in the end, applicants that aren't 3.9+/520+, with typical ECs, just aren't competitive when compared to applicants with similar stats and an additional 2,000 hours of ECs that are obtained during a productive gap year. It shouldn't be necessary, but is in a world where 2/3 of matriculants have at least one gap year.

Come on man, it's simple. Just get a 3.85 GPA in challenging courses while studying for the MCAT and scoring a 520 and volunteering at a hospital/ambulance company (Free clinic would be best, actually) for 5 hours every week while also feeding the homeless for 3 hours every week and getting involved in research deeply enough to be able to speak about it in interviews (or, if you're really lucky, get a publication). Oh and don't forget having a few extra leadership experiences or extracurriculars that make you stand out.

That's super easy to accomplish in 3 years.

Boom. T-10 Acceptance if you interview well.

/s

 

[proudofmykids]

Shocking, not funny!!! Terribly lazy. Approximately 1/3 of all matriculants go straight through from UG. After accounting for the approximately 5% that come from direct entry programs, that leaves around 25%. Who do these advisors think they are, if not 4.0/523 Ivy grads with 1500 hours of ECs, including some unique ones, and a mid author publication??? Unbelievable!! Happily, she was smart enough to know better!!!

I don't know the real number for zero Gap years, but it is my understanding that one Gap year is still reported as traditional student matriculants in the 33%.

 

[proudofmykids]

One side of the coin not addressed in these responses is how much is it worth to the bs/md candidate to not have to worry about putting together 1500 hours of ECs and enjoying college?

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't know the real number for zero Gap years, but it is my understanding that one Gap year is still reported as traditional student matriculants in the 33%.

I am pretty sure that is incorrect. The number is reported as 2/3 having at least one gap year (not more than one). That means 1/3 have zero.

 

[KnightDoc]

One side of the coin not addressed in these responses is how much is it worth to the bs/md candidate to not have to worry about putting together 1500 hours of ECs and enjoying college?

True. Not sure about 1500 hours, but, to my knowledge, the programs that have high requirements like this one (3.7/512) also have EC requirements. Not nearly 1500 hours, but, then again, I don't really think anyone REQUIRES anything near that, although I know many applicants have that much and more.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to enjoy college when you're in a 3 year accelerated program in a place you don't really want to be!

 

[proudofmykids]

I am pretty sure that is incorrect. The number is reported as 2/3 having at least one gap year (not more than one). That means 1/3 have zero.

I don't know how to find the Aamc servey.
I'm sure there was a stat lumping 0 and 1 together and felt like it was a 'worthless' stat since it was together.

 

[proudofmykids]

True. Not sure about 1500 hours, but, to my knowledge, the programs that have high requirements like this one (3.7/512) also have EC requirements. Not nearly 1500 hours, but, then again, I don't really think anyone REQUIRES anything near that, although I know many applicants have that much and more.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to enjoy college when you're in a 3 year accelerated program in a place you don't really want to be!

I wasn't referring to outside programs with 3.7/512 not requiring the EC, but the don't the dedicated BS/MD only require gpa and MCAT this freeing up the extra time as I indicated?

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't know how to find the Aamc servey.
I'm sure there was a stat lumping 0 and 1 together and felt like it was a 'worthless' stat since it was together.

I think the table you are referring to reported age of matriculants, and people calculated gap years from that. There is reporting all over the place showing around 2/3 of matriculants have at least one gap year.

Premeds: Capitalize on gap years before applying to medical school

Taking a year or two between completing undergrad and applying to medical school can strengthen one’s application and offer valuable perspective.

www.ama-assn.org

 

[KnightDoc]

I wasn't referring to outside programs with 3.7/512 not requiring the EC, but the don't the dedicated BS/MD only require gpa and MCAT this freeing up the extra time as I indicated?

Some. But remember, a lot of them don't even require an MCAT, and have GPA requirements far below 3.7. Schools that require 3.7/512, which is no bargain since that's the median for all matriculants nationwide, also often require a certain amount of ECs. Basically, these schools want to make sure the students coming in through direct entry are comparable in all ways to the rest of their class.

 

[Dr.K124]

True. Not sure about 1500 hours, but, to my knowledge, the programs that have high requirements like this one (3.7/512) also have EC requirements. Not nearly 1500 hours, but, then again, I don't really think anyone REQUIRES anything near that, although I know many applicants have that much and more.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to enjoy college when you're in a 3 year accelerated program in a place you don't really want to be!

When it comes to clinical and nonclinical experience I believe there is a diminishing return. The difference between having 100 and 500 hours is much greater than the difference between 500 and 900 hours (all else equal) in the eyes of adcoms.

 

[jhmmd]

I think you might be conflating test takers, applicants and matriculants. The published percentiles are for all test takers, not just matriculants, over the three year period from 2017-19. In fact, that's why a 510, which is 80%-ile of all test takers, is at or below the 10%-ile of matriculants at many schools. Obviously, many people who don't do well on the test do not ultimately apply, and many of those applying with sub 80 %-ile scores do not matriculate. That said, there is clearly a huge difference between a 510 and a 523!

That was exactly what I was saying

 

[Cheezin]

One side of the coin not addressed in these responses is how much is it worth to the bs/md candidate to not have to worry about putting together 1500 hours of ECs and enjoying college?

I am from 7 year bsmd program that have successfully applied out this cycle to an IS med school with several other interviews. I have about 200 hours volunteering and <40 hours shadowing, 400 hours research I think but no pubs or anything close to that, my interviews have been at schools where my mcat is bottom 25th percentile or lower. And I have had a great time at college My hours are definitely on the lower side for everything

 

[KnightDoc]

That was exactly what I was saying

I had a feeling; that's why I posted!!

It wasn't clear because you responded to @Dr.K124 by saying his percentiles were for matriculants when they were for test takers. I knew you knew from the rest of your post. I was just trying to clarify for anyone reading later!!

 

[KnightDoc]

I am from 7 year bsmd program that have successfully applied out this cycle to an IS med school with several other interviews. I have about 200 hours volunteering and <40 hours shadowing, 400 hours research I think but no pubs or anything close to that, my interviews have been at schools where my mcat is bottom 25th percentile or lower. And I have had a great time at college My hours are definitely on the lower side for everything

Hopefully you will be willing to answer a question I've had for some time about applying out from a 7 year program. Exactly how does it work, given that you are scheduled to enter med school after your 3rd year? Are you applying to med school after two years (seems unlikely), do you keep your guarantee and get to defer it a year so you can apply out after your 3rd year, or do you have to give up your guarantee?

Congratulations on your cycle so far!! There must be something pretty special about your application to be doing so well with low hours and MCAT. Thanks in advance!!

 

[proudofmykids]

I am from 7 year bsmd program that have successfully applied out this cycle to an IS med school with several other interviews. I have about 200 hours volunteering and <40 hours shadowing, 400 hours research I think but no pubs or anything close to that, my interviews have been at schools where my mcat is bottom 25th percentile or lower. And I have had a great time at college My hours are definitely on the lower side for everything

But do you have a Hook? URM, SES, 99 or 100 percentile MCAT, or other?

 

[Dr.K124]

But do you have a Hook? URM, SES, 99 or 100 percentile MCAT, or other?

Probably just unique extracurriculars.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

But do you have a Hook? URM, SES, 99 or 100 percentile MCAT, or other?

Is 99 or 100 percentile MCAT really a hook?

 

[Dr.K124]

Is 99 or 100 percentile MCAT really a hook?

No. But even just fantastic essays can be a good hook. Or meeting the mission statement of the SOM.

 

[Cheezin]

Hopefully you will be willing to answer a question I've had for some time about applying out from a 7 year program. Exactly how does it work, given that you are scheduled to enter med school after your 3rd year? Are you applying to med school after two years (seems unlikely), do you keep your guarantee and get to defer it a year so you can apply out after your 3rd year, or do you have to give up your guarantee?

Congratulations on your cycle so far!! There must be something pretty special about your application to be doing so well with low hours and MCAT. Thanks in advance!!

So it is currently my senior year and I am applying this application cycle. I apply normally through amcas and fill out the secondary and am awaiting my II, I just know it is a formality in essence. I am free to apply anywhere else I want. Other programs may have restrictions. I have only had 2 years of undergrad so yes I am applying now I guess lol. I am in my 3rd and final year of undergrad so no deferments. Let me know if this was unclear or if there are any clarifications you seek
edit: also thank you! I would also be willing to go much more in detail in dms if you wish but there is honestly nothing too special, I think I am able to convey my genuine interests and personality when I have the opportunity to interview and that makes the difference

But do you have a Hook? URM, SES, 99 or 100 percentile MCAT, or other?

No hook, ORM, middle class from affluent suburbs, 83rd percentile mcat... average writer (so my essays aren't amazing). I like to think that I am personally reflective and convey maturity and humility. Nothing too standout though.
edit: and no connections or anything, my parents are both first gen immigrants

 

[Cheezin]

Probably just unique extracurriculars.

I do my best to be well rounded and participate in many groups and founded my own organizations in hs and college but they are small and others have certainly done more impressive things

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I do my best to be well rounded and participate in many groups and founded my own organizations in hs and college but they are small and others have certainly done more impressive things

Impressive. Once you are done with the cycle, you should do a mdapplicants profile.

 

[KnightDoc]

So it is currently my senior year and I am applying this application cycle. I apply normally through amcas and fill out the secondary and am awaiting my II, I just know it is a formality in essence. I am free to apply anywhere else I want. Other programs may have restrictions. I have only had 2 years of undergrad so yes I am applying now I guess lol. I am in my 3rd and final year of undergrad so no deferments. Let me know if this was unclear or if there are any clarifications you seek
edit: also thank you! I would also be willing to go much more in detail in dms if you wish but there is honestly nothing too special, I think I am able to convey my genuine interests and personality when I have the opportunity to interview and that makes the difference


No hook, ORM, middle class from affluent suburbs, 83rd percentile mcat... average writer (so my essays aren't amazing). I like to think that I am personally reflective and convey maturity and humility. Nothing too standout though.
edit: and no connections or anything, my parents are both first gen immigrants

You should be really proud of yourself -- this is REALLY amazing, especially with basically negative one gap year while most people need at least positive one to be successful!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

That's not negative 1 gap years, that's just 0 gap years!

Well .. it depends on how you count. Since 0 gap years involves 3 years of UG, what do you call an application after 2 years of UG? I call it -1 gap year!

Remember, the importance of the years, gap or otherwise, is the time available to gather ECs. 2 years is 1 less than 3, so -1 years!!!! In this case, what is truly amazing is that this irrefutable fact has indeed negatively impacted the EC hours, yet doesn't seem to have hurt the application. I think @Cheezin is being really modest, and doesn't fully appreciate how special s/he is as compared to a typical applicant.

 

[Dr.K124]

Well .. it depends on how you count. Since 0 gap years involves 3 years of UG, what do you call an application after 2 years of UG? I call it -1 gap year!

Remember, the importance of the years, gap or otherwise, is the time available to gather ECs. 2 years is 1 less than 3, so -1 years!!!!

I skimmed initially. Deleted my post when I realized my error

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You should be really proud of yourself -- this is REALLY amazing, especially with basically negative one gap year while most people need at least positive one to be successful!!!

This is N=2 for me @KnightDoc I know another student (from CC) who went from OU (8 year BSMD, but finished UG in 3 years) and got into UTSW and that too as a CA ORM.

 

[KnightDoc]

This is N=2 for me @KnightDoc I know another student (from CC) who went from OU (8 year BSMD, but finished UG in 3 years) and got into UTSW and that too as a CA ORM.

Yes, I remember seeing those posts on CC at the time. Another outlier. As I remember, that person was extraordinary and that OU program is extremely difficult to get into.

All this proves is that success is not impossible. Given the stats, it is, to use @Goro's phrase, malpractice to give advice based on n=2. It's the equivalent of telling a high school kid with a great jump shot it's not necessary to focus on academics, because n=450 people with excellent jump shots make millions of dollars a year in the NBA.

Sure, it's possible, but most people with great jump shots and no education work in low wage jobs. Most applicants with zero gap years become reapplicants, even with n=2 extraordinary talents being successful (and I'm sure the actual number is far greater than 2, and far fewer than the number of unsuccessful applicants with less than 3 years of UG and no gap years).

 

[Dr.K124]

Yes, I remember seeing those posts on CC at the time. Another outlier. As I remember, that person was extraordinary and that OU program is extremely difficult to get into.

All this proves is that success is not impossible. Given the stats, it is, to use @Goro's phrase, malpractice to give advice based on n=2. It's the equivalent of telling a high school kid with a great jump shot it's not necessary to focus on academics, because n=450 people with excellent jump shots make millions of dollars a year in the NBA.

Sure, it's possible, but most people with great jump shots and no education work in low wage jobs. Most applicants with zero gap years become reapplicants, even with n=2 extraordinary talents being successful (and I'm sure the actual number is far greater than 2, and far fewer than the number of unsuccessful applicants with less than 3 years of UG and no gap years).

To be honest, I think the need to take a gap year varies heavily on undergraduate institution. Most of your time will be devoted to classes, and if those classes are heavily grade inflated it makes it all significantly easier to rack up EC hours. But obviously not everyone can attend a school like Brown/Harvard.

 

[KnightDoc]

To be honest, I think the need to take a gap year varies heavily on undergraduate institution. Most of your time will be devoted to classes, and if those classes are heavily grade inflated it makes it all significantly easier to rack up EC hours. But obviously not everyone can attend a school like Brown/Harvard.

I actually think a lot more than grade inflation is involved. Even with it, it's not so easy to consistently get As in everything.

In addition to this, it's important to hit the ground running with respect to ECs beginning in freshman year, which a lot of people (including me) find difficult while acclimating to life away from home and keeping grades high, inflation or not. Add to that all the people who drop out along the way, and those who come to it late, and you have a small minority well qualified to become part of that magic 1/3 after three years. It's exponentially more difficult to successfully compete after two years. Not impossible, but difficult enough to not really be worth a conversation for most people.

 

[Cheezin]

Impressive. Once you are done with the cycle, you should do a mdapplicants profile.

Thanks, I set myself a reminder for next year because otherwise I would forget lol

In addition to this, it's important to hit the ground running with respect to ECs beginning in freshman year, which a lot of people (including me) find difficult while acclimating to life away from home and keeping grades high, inflation or not.

I would agree with the first line, the fall of my freshman year I got myself involved in (too) many organizations and started research and took all my classes and was very 'productive'. I had a great time still but I definitely wasn't spending all my time watching Netflix as I am right now

Remember, the importance of the years, gap or otherwise, is the time available to gather ECs. 2 years is 1 less than 3, so -1 years!!!! In this case, what is truly amazing is that this irrefutable fact has indeed negatively impacted the EC hours, yet doesn't seem to have hurt the application.

Haha KnightDoc thank you for the hype, I have some idea and definitely share my excitement with my close friends, don't you worry! And for the short duration of this cycle thus far I have definitely felt like the odds were against me and doubted myself at times, but that's the great part of having supportive friends and family.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

To be honest, I think the need to take a gap year varies heavily on undergraduate institution. Most of your time will be devoted to classes, and if those classes are heavily grade inflated it makes it all significantly easier to rack up EC hours. But obviously not everyone can attend a school like Brown/Harvard.

and Stanford It may also depend on how competitive your HS is. Lot of kids with who are accustomed to to getting As in HS assume college level courses are not that difficult and run into weed out buzz saw in first year. I see parents complaining about their kids suddenly getting C average in premed courses at the T20 private schools and wonder where their 70K is going. None of the top 5% kids from kid's HS seems to have run into this issue (over few last few years).

 

[Dr.K124]

and Stanford It may also depend on how competitive your HS is. Lot of kids with who are accustomed to to getting As in HS assume college level courses are not that difficult and run into weed out buzz saw in first year. I see parents complaining about their kids suddenly getting C average in premed courses at the T20 private schools and wonder where their 70K is going. None of the top 5% kids from kid's HS seems to have run into this issue (over few last few years).

Agreed. It also depends on how competitive your high school was. A nationally renowned High School with very challenging classes makes the transition to college much easier. An easier transition means it's easier to jump right into ECs.