BU vs Mount Sinai

[bellaglabella]

Having difficulty deciding where to rank these two in relation to each other. Anyone have a sense of which has heavier workload, where residents are happier? Any major difference in prestige? It's so hard to tell at the interview, they all just say how happy they are (lies, all lies).

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[hcrunner82]

Hey, I can't speak for BU but I did a month long rotation at Sinai so I'll try and shed some light on that program.

Pros: Great pathology, especially in regards to stroke. Decent didactics/lectures. Large amount of both lab and clinical research going on. Great location in the city.

Cons: Malignant chairman and overall just malignant feel to the program. Residents work very hard all 3 years(workload/call schedule seemed harder than some IM programs.)Lacking in some subspecialities, most notably epilepsy(no EMU at main hospital). Nice but expensive housing(~2000).

Overall, I think Sinai will give you a good education and good training. I ended up not interviewing there though just because I didn't like the feel I got while there. Compared to other programs I have seen, Sinai just has a cold/unfriendly feel to it.

Good luck on the match and with the decision.

 

[Acherona]

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[MSNeuro]

Although I don't know much about BU's program, I am currently a
resident at Mt. Sinai and can give you some insight into our program.

We are a solid, clinically-based residency and our graduates have a
reputation throughout the country of being excellent clinicians.
There is a lot of teaching, both formal and informal, and a wide range
of experience in our three teaching hospitals (academic tertiary care
center, VA and city hospital). Our graduates have no difficulties
getting fellowships and then jobs, about half in academics and half in
private practice, all over the US.

Somewhere along the way a rumor began that the program is malignant,
which has always struck all of us actually at Sinai as being so
strange as we are, in reality, one of the more lifestyle friendly
programs in New York City. We were the first program in NYC to have a
night float system, have never been in violation of the duty hours
(even before they existed), our call schedule is amongst the lightest
of any NYC program and no one who has started this residency has quit
(very few places can say that). Most of my co-residents say that
their favorite part of the program is the collegiality amongst the
residents and between the residents and faculty.

I chose Sinai because I wanted excellent clinical training, a
collegial work environment and a balanced life and I feel that I've
gotten all those things of this residency. Good luck with your
decision.

 

[islander]

Sinai is absolutely a malignant neuro program in terms of the chairman and dept heads. The chair is famously vicious in morning rounds with neuro residents and other rotators alike, and the interviewees who have come away from interviews with him with a bad feel for the program are legion. The workload and call schedule are quite onerous and in Sinai it is generally felt that neuro is a tougher residency experience than, say, IM (which is not generally the case). Night float sounds nice but at Sinai it just means that you stay really, really late every 3rd day or so and then don't get the next day off; every day you are either on-call, post-call (but at a regular work day) or pre-call. Columbia likely has a tougher schedule but most other NYC programs (NYU, Cornell, etc.) are far more benign - Sinai is absolutely not "the lightest workload" in NY. The residents do get along well with eachother for the most part but they are a self-selecting group who thrive with heavy workloads - the program is not for many people who like neuro because they like time to think about cases, etc. and not a constant grind. As for grads having "no problem getting jobs or fellowships", the US has a shortage of neurologists and docs in general and virtually no neurologist would have trouble finding employment.

 

[msneurores]

I am another Mount Sinai Neuro Resident (I'm PGY-4).

I just want to reiterate that our program is NOT malignant. I actually laugh when I hear this. It just doesn't make sense. Our residency program director is exacty akin to a caring grandfather in addition to being a phenomenal teacher. Our attendings treat us as colleagues. We are friends with our fellow residents. Furthermore, like the previous MS resident said, we have not lost one resident in at least 10 years (probably longer just haven't gone back farther than this). How malignant could our program be with a 100% retention rate? I am not going to keep going back and forth about this, however I would just like everyone who reads this to take into account that the people who really know what the residency is like are the ones that have done it. I would choose Mount Sinai #1 again. It was a great place to do residency!

 

[MSNeuro]

To Islander-
A brief response from the folks who are at Sinai: it definitely sounds
like you had a lousy experience here, and we're sorry to hear that.
Students (visiting and our own) generally have a terrific time at Sinai,
and students have rated the Neurology clerkship #1 for several years
now. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, just know that no one
here views our chairman as particularly malignant -- he is in fact an
excellent teacher and has built the program tremendously in the last
decade. We're thrilled that, while stepping down, he will remain on the teaching faculty. I think the people who have interviewed here and spent time with us this year came away with a good sense of the program, the residents, and the education they get here. It's not "easy", but it's a solid program and the people make it fun.

 

[bellaglabella]

Thank you everyone for all the input! As the chairman is stepping down, I'm not really weighing this factor, although he did make a somewhat condescending comment to me during the interview that I didn't really know how to respond to. Doesn't mean he's not a great teacher though. Anyway, it's nice to see the residents come out of the woodwork to defend the program.

If anyone can weigh-in on BU that would be great 🙂

 

[Luigi]

Hey, if anybody has any questions about the BU Program, you got a list of resident emails, whom you met on the interview trail. I am sure they would be more than happy to help you with the information that you need.

I am very happy with the experience I have had in this program. The attending philosophy is very "resident-centric" and we have a great balance of autonomy and direct supervision.

I would say no egos, in a program big enough to provide top of the line education to the residents, but small enough to prevent dilution of the exposure.

In terms of call schedule, PGY-2's have approximately q4 call, with about 3-6 consults per night. PGY-3's have 3 calls per month, in addition to one month of night float, with about 4-8 consults per night. PGY-4's get one month of night float and sporadic Holiday Call. Again, 4-8 consults per night. Everybody gets at least two weekends off per month.

Tuesday lecture (8:30 AM - 3:00 PM) is protected from the wards (basically you are not paged because someone is covering).

Over the past few yrs everybody goes to fellowship wherever they want to go, about half of them stay in Boston.

Chairman is superb, interacting with the residents on a daily basis and being part of the General and Stroke rotations.

Program Director is the best, making sure that everybody is happy and up to date with all of our needs.

Teaching and Clinical faculty members teach because they want to, not because they are forced to.

Boston is a great city, small enough to have a town feeling, but big enough to host the Red Sox, the Celtics and the Patriots (and Bruins for hockey fans).

Would BU be my first rank if I had to do this all over again? Of course...no problems...no regrets.

 

[islander]

Sinai students do like the clerkship, but in recent years the residency has had trouble attracting any neuro-bound Sinai students into the residency itself. Last year I think the residency even had a bunch of unfilled spots post-match. A few years ago the residency had to hold back a resident from advancement because a student who matched bailed on the program and they couldn't find any takers for the open spot. The residents in the program are clinically good and solid but they are a self-selecting population who don't mind q3 call, a malignant chairman and overall oppressive air to the program. Other programs abound that match high quality with actual supportive and pleasant chairmen and leadership staff. For instance, discussion of most of the other NYC and national programs on this board over the past few years hasn't had the malignancy of residency leadership as a frequent theme as much as Sinai. If so many posters over multiple interview seasons and rotations have frequently made these comments, perhaps there's something to it, no?

 

[DarthNeurology]

Having difficulty deciding where to rank these two in relation to each other. Anyone have a sense of which has heavier workload, where residents are happier? Any major difference in prestige? It's so hard to tell at the interview, they all just say how happy they are (lies, all lies).

I would email residents and talk to them in depth during interviews. What may be a good program for one applicant, may be a bad program for another. I have heard that BU has one of the lightest call schedules for any neurology residency. Even though, BU's neurology program failed to fill in the match last year and I did hear that the PD/ranking committee was very cocky before the match in thinking that their program was good enough to fill and ranked only superb candidates and hence didn't fill. Likewise, the pediatric neurology section is new, and apparently has had trouble filling spots.

I do not have confidence that BU's neurology program provides as full a range of experiences/cases as does Sinai's program. Sinai does have an excellent reputation neuroscience-wise. I can't comment one way or the other about Sinai's PD. The reputation of the institution is similar.

 

[211]

I interviewed at both these programs: in brief, I thought Sinai had excellent training and I would love to end up there. At BU, the residents seemed relatively unhappy--not sure if this is because of workload or b/c they haven't been matching well. Just my opinion, but to me this is an easy decision.

 

[pontismaximi]

Hi all, I'm a BU resident in Neurology. I heard about some positive and negative things said about our program on these forums, so I thought I'd weigh in.

First of all, I would like to say -- I don't care who you are or where you're applying or how you're ranking; basing your opinion on anything written here without doing a little more legwork is questionable, at best. These anonymous posts could be written by anyone!

So email or call a resident. Ask the program director for a list of emails if you lost the one you were provided. Ask a bunch. We're all friendly and would be happy to answer any questions you have.

Second, be wary of anyone who pans an entire group of residents as unhappy. Ask the residents, not an anonymous poster.

And finally, a word about our program, and its people. Our residents take care of each other, are happy, and love living in Boston. They get the fellowships they want consistently. We receive extraordinary clinical training from a large and diverse patient population (how many cases of Whipple's disease or Wasabi Nose do you think you're likely to see in a career?) and a faculty generous with their time and advice. And our program director makes time, all the time, to address concerns and to help guide us down career paths that make us happy.

But again, don't let a posting on here have the final word. Ask me, or my colleagues.

 

[oruen]

ok i'll just add my input here in case i helps people attempting to sort out their rank list... i have some familiarity w/Sinai and the faculty and residents.

my impression was that the residents were indeed actually quite happy. they did work fairly hard, but it seemed a reasonable amount for residency and the exposure to pathology was impressive across all of their affiliates. they all seemed to get along well.

the chair who everyone refers to here had more of the, lets say, traditional approach to didactics. he did put people on the spot and ask questions. i remember alan ropper doing this with his residents as well. if you are not used to it, and do not realize there is no ill will meant, it may make you uncomfortable. but some still argue it can be an effective way to learn. this chair was also present at 7am several times per week for morning report with all the residents, and chairman's rounds-he was quite dedicated to teaching, this is probably more than most chairpersons do at other programs. on the otherhand i remember residents saying he didn't know their name for several years, and i did hear/experience some of what has been described above.

sinai has some of the most well known clinicians in the world in movement disorders, multiple sclerosis, and stroke, among other fields. probably more so than many other programs in nyc. unfortunately epilepsy is indeed a weak spot...

anyway hope this helps

 

[oruen]

it's interesting that you posted this on 4/9/2004:

"Mt. Sinai in NYC is an awesome program. I wouldn't say it's "under-rated" since it has a very good name in NY and surrounding states, but it doesn't have the national rep it probably deserves. Why is it awesome? 1) Very well-regarded and prominent attendings, 2) Very well-respected and powerful chairman, 3) Great mix of cases, from tertiary referrals for the wealthy to bread and butter among the underserved, 4) Excellent research activities. Very tight group of very happy residents - the exposure and workload of some of the more malignant programs in a high-morale environment."

and now this below...

Sinai is absolutely a malignant neuro program in terms of the chairman and dept heads. The chair is famously vicious in morning rounds with neuro residents and other rotators alike, and the interviewees who have come away from interviews with him with a bad feel for the program are legion. The workload and call schedule are quite onerous and in Sinai it is generally felt that neuro is a tougher residency experience than, say, IM (which is not generally the case). Night float sounds nice but at Sinai it just means that you stay really, really late every 3rd day or so and then don't get the next day off; every day you are either on-call, post-call (but at a regular work day) or pre-call. Columbia likely has a tougher schedule but most other NYC programs (NYU, Cornell, etc.) are far more benign - Sinai is absolutely not "the lightest workload" in NY. The residents do get along well with eachother for the most part but they are a self-selecting group who thrive with heavy workloads - the program is not for many people who like neuro because they like time to think about cases, etc. and not a constant grind. As for grads having "no problem getting jobs or fellowships", the US has a shortage of neurologists and docs in general and virtually no neurologist would have trouble finding employment.

 

[snakesonaplane]

How hard is it to get an interview at Sinai? Does anyone know if they have USMLE score cut-offs? I didn't do very well on Step 1 so just wanted to get an idea.

 

[medsRus]

it's interesting that you posted this on 4/9/2004:

"Mt. Sinai in NYC is an awesome program. I wouldn't say it's "under-rated" since it has a very good name in NY and surrounding states, but it doesn't have the national rep it probably deserves. Why is it awesome? 1) Very well-regarded and prominent attendings, 2) Very well-respected and powerful chairman, 3) Great mix of cases, from tertiary referrals for the wealthy to bread and butter among the underserved, 4) Excellent research activities. Very tight group of very happy residents - the exposure and workload of some of the more malignant programs in a high-morale environment."

and now this below...

Splitting...