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Buffalo OMFS program closing.
Started by shame
**moderator edit: removed resident email address at top of email for privacy reasons.
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There was some good debate in that OU thread that was removed. It’s unfortunate future classes won’t be able to reference it. That was brave of the resident to speak out about the racist/sexist comments..but what was he trying to do with the deer antler?
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Rush_motion
Full Member
I’m still not fully grasping the problem with the program.
Is it the attendings or the malignant senior residents ?
BestInHere
New Member
Residents come and go. It's the faculty that set the culture.
From my brief experience, LSU’s faculty are malignant besides Dr. Zaid. Dr. James/Park/Ehland create the hostile environment, and the residents are afraid to speak up. Dr. James sent the infamous middle finger e-mail, and Dr. Ehland prefers pimping residents over cutting cases with them. I feel bad for the residents.
You'll be alright fam, I just avoided all these programs either by not applying, declining the invite, unranking them, depending on how soon I found out about theirs culture. I matched with my number 1 but I was absolutely ready to reapply as I shortlisted my ranks.
Better to not match than match at a hell program that might kick you out /force you to resign with all the student loans that we have. Best of luck! You got this.
Definitely follow this guy's advice, future applicants! It's always reassuring to get OMFS career guidance from someone whose backup plan was quitting the backup plan. Nothing says OMFS expert quite like quitting a non-cat early lmao (per his own previous posts)
Oh no. The attending pimps the residents?!
What’s the real story in Buffalo? There was some flimsy newspaper article written about it.
One of the residents made a post last year,back when they had like a couple of residents left. I have met quite a few of them during externships and interviews and they only had horrible experiences to share.
Extern and apply broadly, you can use this thread to guide where you don't want to apply but in general it will be important to get a good feel for the places you visit. Some programs can put on a very different face at interviews than their reality. When residents are kind enough to tell you "seriously, this is a busy program" don't assume that's their opinion that somehow you'll be different and just be able to handle it. OMFS is hard, and that resident is telling you the truth.
In my opinion, the beauty of OMFS residency in the United States is that you will have what you need to become a strong surgeon pretty much anywhere you go - a toxic, demeaning, arbitrarily hard residency is not a strict necessity to becoming good. You need to be intentional about the opportunities you're given - that's more important than going to a program that markets limitless opportunity behind a veil of abusive practices. No point in being scared, take action to secure the best result for yourself.
PocketAtlas
New Member
It was a combination of both. The malignant senior residents graduated already. The attendings have a history of malignancy but have made changes to improve that especially after they went unmatched. The resident culture is better than most from what I have seen. All of the residents are friends regardless of their position in the program. Even that chick in the chief class hangs out with everyone. This is what everyone is not seeing: The first resident to leave left because of medical/mental health issues and did so early in the year after realizing the schedule was not sustainable for him. The second resident to leave was the only resident out of any of them to leave because of a very malignant chief class years ago coupled with some attending malignancy and it sets off a down stream effect. The resident they accepted to replace that guy leaving was a Minnesota resident on probation for at least a year who then went to OU and they learned quickly why he was on probation at another program. He ultimately left on his own. The next three people to leave were this year - a non cat, and two interns. The noncat is a pathological liar. The second resident to leave should have never been accepted to begin with. (This portion has been removed/edited by a moderator). The third resident to leave never should have been accepted because it was clear they didn’t know why they wanted to be a surgeon. They left because they ultimately figured it out. One resident truly is all this comes down to. The rest is a snowball effect and poor resident selection on the programs part. If anything OU needs to choose better residents.
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Sorry. No second chances in OMFS. Once deemed malignant, you are forever malignant, whether warranted or based on entirely fabricated grounds.
We can continue to discuss other matters but only once you've disclosed what the chief resident was trying to do with the deer antler.
We can continue to discuss other matters but only once you've disclosed what the chief resident was trying to do with the deer antler.
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Dentstudent10
New Member
Can we please stop posting details that identify individual residents? it got the last thread locked! especially the harassment allegations!
What I find hard to understand is how the explanation for nearly every departure over multiple years ends up being a flaw in the resident rather than any issue with the program. At some point the odds of every resident who leaves being uniquely dishonest, unstable, under investigation, a poor fit, or never committed to OMFS in the first place start becoming difficult to accept at face value.
If that's truly the explanation, then it raises a different question, why did the program keep selecting these residents in the first place? either way, it seems like the story is probably more complicated than "the program was fine and every resident who left was the problem." and we are talking about at least 7 residents? I lost count.
Also, while we're clearing things up, can someone finally explain the deer antler situation? Somehow that's become the biggest mystery in this entire thread.
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BestInHere
New Member
It's kind of a two-way street. It's a combination of the program, attendings, current residents, and future applicants.
First we start with the program. If it's a 4 year program, it already makes it more competitive to get in because of the increased amount of applicants. If it's in a big city that makes it more competitive as well. Having free med-school tuition makes some 6 year programs more competitive than others. If there are fellows it makes the program less competitive. If it is weak dentoalveolar it will make it less competitive.
Then we start with the attendings. I believe this is the second biggest factor. If they are toxic and hard to work with it will make applicants less interested in it.
Current residents isn't a big deal because they come and go. So you might have one toxic resident but they will be gone in a few years.
So that leaves future applicants. Most programs interview the same applicants. There's a reason for that. That's because those applicants are the strongest. That leaves these applicants with multiple programs to choose from. These applicants will choose the type of programs that I listed above. So programs like OU end up having to pick applicants from the bottom of the barrel (no offense). So in conclusion, residents drop out due to these residents not being strong applicants to begin with (ie some not even knowing why they applied to omfs in the first place) and the program being toxic/difficult. And to be fair to a lot of residents, OMFS isn't like other dental residencies where it is 9-5. It's similar to medical residency where you are spending all your time in the hospital working like a horse.
Now what I'm about to say is my personal opinion. It's not one shoe fits all. But I believe most applicants don't care about 6 year programs anymore. Why waste 2 years of your life taking on additional debt for no reason? And let's be real, most of the information you'll be learning in med school is useless. How many people 5 years out of residency remember any of the information in step 1? Or did the psychiatry rotation you did really make you a better surgeon? And most residents don't want to work more than the 80 hour limit and want post-call. Working more than 100 hours doesn't make you tough, it just makes you a ragdoll. There is a reason why hospitals implemented the 80 hour limit, and that's to protect residents and patients. It was not implemented for programs to ignore it. If they ignore it, avoid it. They are not taking your health or the patients health into consideration. Last point, most residents graduating will go to private practice doing dentoalveolar. If you're program is weak on that, then it will make you less competitive. I have seen senior residents at programs having done 0 implants. There are residents that placed more implants in a fibula than the mandibile. Imagine graduating after 6 years and then needing to fly to the DR to learn how to place implants. OMFS is changing, applicants and residents are factoring in their overall health and happiness and will not put up with these shenanigans anymore.
First we start with the program. If it's a 4 year program, it already makes it more competitive to get in because of the increased amount of applicants. If it's in a big city that makes it more competitive as well. Having free med-school tuition makes some 6 year programs more competitive than others. If there are fellows it makes the program less competitive. If it is weak dentoalveolar it will make it less competitive.
Then we start with the attendings. I believe this is the second biggest factor. If they are toxic and hard to work with it will make applicants less interested in it.
Current residents isn't a big deal because they come and go. So you might have one toxic resident but they will be gone in a few years.
So that leaves future applicants. Most programs interview the same applicants. There's a reason for that. That's because those applicants are the strongest. That leaves these applicants with multiple programs to choose from. These applicants will choose the type of programs that I listed above. So programs like OU end up having to pick applicants from the bottom of the barrel (no offense). So in conclusion, residents drop out due to these residents not being strong applicants to begin with (ie some not even knowing why they applied to omfs in the first place) and the program being toxic/difficult. And to be fair to a lot of residents, OMFS isn't like other dental residencies where it is 9-5. It's similar to medical residency where you are spending all your time in the hospital working like a horse.
Now what I'm about to say is my personal opinion. It's not one shoe fits all. But I believe most applicants don't care about 6 year programs anymore. Why waste 2 years of your life taking on additional debt for no reason? And let's be real, most of the information you'll be learning in med school is useless. How many people 5 years out of residency remember any of the information in step 1? Or did the psychiatry rotation you did really make you a better surgeon? And most residents don't want to work more than the 80 hour limit and want post-call. Working more than 100 hours doesn't make you tough, it just makes you a ragdoll. There is a reason why hospitals implemented the 80 hour limit, and that's to protect residents and patients. It was not implemented for programs to ignore it. If they ignore it, avoid it. They are not taking your health or the patients health into consideration. Last point, most residents graduating will go to private practice doing dentoalveolar. If you're program is weak on that, then it will make you less competitive. I have seen senior residents at programs having done 0 implants. There are residents that placed more implants in a fibula than the mandibile. Imagine graduating after 6 years and then needing to fly to the DR to learn how to place implants. OMFS is changing, applicants and residents are factoring in their overall health and happiness and will not put up with these shenanigans anymore.
There is a lot to unpack here and I am short on time but wanted to mention that when they kick out a resident the faculty will try to convince you that quitting is better than being terminated. It's not surprising that all these "horrible" residents decided on their own to "quit". They will offer to corroborate your bogus quitting story if you resign so you waive your right to appeal or sue them. Falling in love with family medicine after 4 years of dental school, multiple years of surgical residency for example. It sounds nice but when the PDs call eachother, don't expect them to honor it. If you appeal their MD colleagues will hear your side of the story and they are very insecure about that.
Dentstudent10
New Member
Well said. I think that's one of the more balanced takes in this entire thread.
It's easy to blame every resident or blame every program, but reality is usually somewhere in between. Hopefully programs pay attention to what applicants and residents are valuing today instead of assuming people will tolerate anything just because it's OMFS.
this specialty is doomed if residents in today’s culture view pimping as “malignant”…
There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with attendings being a bit tough on you. You’re taking care of a person who has put so much faith in you as you cut them open. That is a good reason for tensions to be a bit high. Talking to some residents at these programs, a lot have said these claims are fake (though some may be true as well). I hope people in this thread aren’t thin-skinned individuals who are tarnishing people’s reputations behind their computer screens. But I do agree that their should be some more awareness on the scut work heavy, poor operating experience programs more than anything else.
I don't think anybody cares about answering some textbook questions in the OR or during academics. These dentists love tests the most and everyone knows OMFS residency is hard work. It's the lack of actual surgical training that's seems to be an issue. It becomes frustrating when residents tolerate this, knowing they will have take measures after such as flying to DR to complete their surgical training and then get slapped with remediation plans etc over it
Rush_motion
Full Member
You hit it right on.
Residents get frustrated when they feel like their surgical training is not where it should be.
Being in a program where the attending is horrible and does the majority of the procedure and the resident is just forced to retract and suction, all while getting yelled/pimped at the same time. This is not ideal. Especially when there are programs where attendings take their job seriously and the residents do operate the majority of the procedure.
High volume doesn't mean anything if all your doing is suction retract, suturing and get yelled at.
It sounds like your experience was pretty terrible and not at all what you’d expect after matching into such a competitive specialty. Sorry to hear that. Consider also that other residents may have had a different experience with the same attending. Most wouldn’t dare do that to a nepo, rotating MD or even the middest 4/10.
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Rush_motion
Full Member
Was this question directed towards me ?
My personal experience was phenomenal - surgery wise. I cut a ton of cases and did pretty much the entire case and had excellent surgical training. That I can’t complain about and I am thankful over. My anesthesia rotation was also phenomenal.
My comment has to do with some other programs, that I’ve seen first hand (externing) and speaking with close colleagues.
Nope just general sympathy for whoever your post resonated with
I am not a part of the program, and have been a long term member of this forum. SDN has brought to light so many programs in the recent year. But please keep in mind, as much as you guys dump on these programs, you are hurting the residents at these programs. This is a double edged sword; while it does bring to light the bad. These residents are stuck at these programs for 4-6 years and you are making it harder for them to match co-residents and also shaming these residents to be at their program.
As much as OU gets dumped on for culture (which has apparently improved according to a post above), the crazy thing is OU residents operate a lot and they operate more than a large majority of 4 year programs. (I think that's why so many people are interested in taking down programs that are giants.) Most of the programs discussed recently have been traditionally some of the best training programs in the US. According to a source, their CODA numbers are in the 99th percentile. That is why the match was so shocking. They cut a lot of trauma and orthognathics. The residents get to operate on pediatric craniofacial vaults for craniosynostosis and help plate and screw the baby's skull. Plastics craniofacial fellows don't even get to do this in some fellowships. The residents are doing as much as plastics fellows in other fellowships while the OU craniofacial fellow is basically the role of the attending and running the vault and doing the most critical portions. On the other hand, the Buffalo craniofacial fellow wasn't doing anything and the residents were watching the fellow watch the attending. And the residents were watching the fellow do the bread and butter procedures. I'm hoping cultures everywhere improve after these posts.
As much as OU gets dumped on for culture (which has apparently improved according to a post above), the crazy thing is OU residents operate a lot and they operate more than a large majority of 4 year programs. (I think that's why so many people are interested in taking down programs that are giants.) Most of the programs discussed recently have been traditionally some of the best training programs in the US. According to a source, their CODA numbers are in the 99th percentile. That is why the match was so shocking. They cut a lot of trauma and orthognathics. The residents get to operate on pediatric craniofacial vaults for craniosynostosis and help plate and screw the baby's skull. Plastics craniofacial fellows don't even get to do this in some fellowships. The residents are doing as much as plastics fellows in other fellowships while the OU craniofacial fellow is basically the role of the attending and running the vault and doing the most critical portions. On the other hand, the Buffalo craniofacial fellow wasn't doing anything and the residents were watching the fellow watch the attending. And the residents were watching the fellow do the bread and butter procedures. I'm hoping cultures everywhere improve after these posts.
Rush_motion
Full Member
Hope for the best for those residents. Exactly what I predicted (post 18).
From my understanding lsu and OU have a ton of openings. Does anyone have a current list of programs with numbers of vacancies (and indicated years)?
Those are the places that would logically get filled first.
It would be nice to start a list, I'll contribute to it if we get it started. Some programs keep it quiet and don't fill their spots so their reputation doesn't get damaged.
Just an update for clarity: CODA nor University at Buffalo nor any governing body has assisted any of the residents in securing positions. The sole players in the search have been the residents and members of the programs they are attempting to transfer to. As of this post, numerous residents (incoming and current) are still without positions and are actively looking. Please check your sources since misinformation about the residents has been spreading like wildfire
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BestInHere
New Member
lol that'd be so bad if they leave one bad program to end up at another bad program
Rush_motion
Full Member
That would be terrible. If I was a buffalo resident I’d try to go for the Loma Linda position that was vacated recently by a resident (I’ve read his numerous posts). The nice weather in California would be awesome.
Advice to people in residency or going into residency:
You have a lot of control in shaping what your training is like. I have seen quite a bit of incidence, including my coresidents, that you play passive part in your training. You go where you are told and retract when you are told to do so.
If the surgical opportunity is not given to you, you need to ask for it. Ask your attending or senior resident if you can try xyz. This is how i started doing little by little beginning my intern year. But before you ask, make sure you read up on the procedure and the patient. If they can tell that you dont know your stuff, that opportunity will be gone.
You have a lot of control in shaping what your training is like. I have seen quite a bit of incidence, including my coresidents, that you play passive part in your training. You go where you are told and retract when you are told to do so.
If the surgical opportunity is not given to you, you need to ask for it. Ask your attending or senior resident if you can try xyz. This is how i started doing little by little beginning my intern year. But before you ask, make sure you read up on the procedure and the patient. If they can tell that you dont know your stuff, that opportunity will be gone.
This is program dependent, and within each program, varies by attending.
I will not pretend I was the world's best resident, but I know I wasn't the worst. Very different rapport with different attendings. Some people just don't click while others do.
I definitely agree with the principle of trying to be as prepared as possible and advocating for your own education though.
Never turn down a case, stay late or come in on a Saturday off if you need to. You can only do residency once
This is theoretically what you should do as a resident. I think at some programs, like Buffalo, those opportunities were never there or offered. Some programs are run by ego centric attendings that don't care about education or their residents.
People don't want to go through 4-6 years of an optional residency where they give up their entire life all to go take CE in implants so they can catch up to their GD and perio colleagues. Maybe it's a good thing that programs like Buffalo are shutting down. The field can use some reform.
Having to take CE to learn about implants as an OMFS is a humiliation ritual
MaxFace.org
New Member
A consolidated summary of resident placement outcomes following the closure of the University at Buffalo Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency Program has been published.
The report compiles currently confirmed placement information (to the best of our knowledge) into a single reference document and will be updated as additional verified information becomes available.
The purpose of the report is to provide an organized overview of placement outcomes for residents, applicants, faculty, and other members of the OMFS community while reducing confusion resulting from fragmented or outdated information.
While many residents have successfully secured positions and resumed their training, several colleagues are still working to find programs where they can continue their education. If you are aware of potential opportunities, or if your institution may be able to assist a displaced resident, your consideration and support could make a meaningful difference. The OMFS community has always been strengthened by the willingness of its members to support one another during difficult circumstances, and any assistance extended to those still seeking placement is sincerely appreciated.
The report is available here:
Comments, corrections, or verified placement updates are welcome and will be considered for inclusion in future revisions of the report.
The report compiles currently confirmed placement information (to the best of our knowledge) into a single reference document and will be updated as additional verified information becomes available.
The purpose of the report is to provide an organized overview of placement outcomes for residents, applicants, faculty, and other members of the OMFS community while reducing confusion resulting from fragmented or outdated information.
While many residents have successfully secured positions and resumed their training, several colleagues are still working to find programs where they can continue their education. If you are aware of potential opportunities, or if your institution may be able to assist a displaced resident, your consideration and support could make a meaningful difference. The OMFS community has always been strengthened by the willingness of its members to support one another during difficult circumstances, and any assistance extended to those still seeking placement is sincerely appreciated.
The report is available here:
Comments, corrections, or verified placement updates are welcome and will be considered for inclusion in future revisions of the report.
Buffalo closing down might have been the best thing to happen to some of these residents. They’ve transitioned into some very good programs that they probably wouldn’t have matched to otherwise. That's great for them.A consolidated summary of resident placement outcomes following the closure of the University at Buffalo Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency Program has been published.
The report compiles currently confirmed placement information (to the best of our knowledge) into a single reference document and will be updated as additional verified information becomes available.
The purpose of the report is to provide an organized overview of placement outcomes for residents, applicants, faculty, and other members of the OMFS community while reducing confusion resulting from fragmented or outdated information.
While many residents have successfully secured positions and resumed their training, several colleagues are still working to find programs where they can continue their education. If you are aware of potential opportunities, or if your institution may be able to assist a displaced resident, your consideration and support could make a meaningful difference. The OMFS community has always been strengthened by the willingness of its members to support one another during difficult circumstances, and any assistance extended to those still seeking placement is sincerely appreciated.
The report is available here:
Comments, corrections, or verified placement updates are welcome and will be considered for inclusion in future revisions of the report.
MaxFace.org
New Member
It’s worth noting that these placements were not automatic simply because a program closed. The transfer process was highly competitive and, in many ways, resembled reapplying for residency. Displaced residents interviewed with multiple programs and were evaluated on the same factors that have traditionally been important in OMFS residency selection, including CBSE performance, academic record, clinical and operative experience, letters of recommendation, research, professionalism, and overall fit with the receiving program. While the closure created the need for transfers, each resident still had to earn their position through an independent selection process. As one example, applicants should not expect that a program closure alone would make them competitive for a highly sought-after program such as the University of Michigan or Parkland if the rest of their application would not ordinarily be competitive. The same standards and expectations largely remained in place.
Given the level of interest surrounding the closure, MaxFace is currently preparing a comprehensive report explaining how the transfer process worked from start to finish. The report will cover the timeline, application process, securing funding, interviews, accreditation considerations, and the factors involved in resident placement to provide greater transparency and context.
Looking beyond this event, the goal is for MaxFace to become a long-term educational resource for the OMFS community. In addition to publishing the transfer report, the site will include resources on applying to OMFS residency, career development, maintaining and advancing surgical skills after graduation, and other educational content for residents, students, and practicing surgeons.
Questions, comments, or suggestions are always welcome. Feel free to post on the forum or reach out through the website to help build a resource that benefits the OMFS community.
Flying to the DR for this is grossly pathetic. If you can't raise a flap and drill a straight whole after 6 years you should not even be allowed to be a dentist. Dental students place implants. There is plenty of US based CE for learning the nuances of implant positioning.
I would also caution what you learn in the DR. The one OMFS I knew that did training there thought raising lingual flaps for third molars was normal.
We’re ready
You know better than to end on that
JacquesVallee
Full Member
Is there also a pullem3.0?You know better than to end on that
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Was this about buffalo closing or the deer antler?
bracketmaker
New Member
I believe this statement accurately reflects concerns that have been circulating among applicants, residents, and others in the OMS community. The general impression is that the environment at UF Jacksonville has progressively deteriorated. Multiple individuals have described a culture in which residents may feel intimidated, threatened with disciplinary consequences, or treated inconsistently based on their relationship with program leadership. There are also recurring concerns about favoritism. Prospective applicants should speak privately with current and former residents from different classes to better understand their individual experiences. Since concerns about the program began appearing publicly, I have heard allegations that current residents and former chiefs were encouraged to post positive comments portraying the program as exceptionally supportive. Applicants should be cautious about relying solely on anonymous online reviews or institutional promotional material on social media. They should ask specific questions about resident morale, operative autonomy, case distribution, disciplinary practices, faculty support, and how complaints are addressed. Another major concern is the perceived lack of meaningful accountability. Complaints have reportedly been raised through institutional and GME channels, yet many individuals believe they have not resulted in meaningful change. Although the chair’s appointment as interim dean of the College of Medicine in Jacksonville may be viewed by some as beneficial to the program, others worry that increased institutional authority could make independent oversight and accountability more difficult. UF Jacksonville was once widely regarded as a program strongly committed to surgical education and patient care. However, the current perception among many people in the OMS community is that institutional politics, leadership advancement, and public image have increasingly taken priority over resident education and well-being. No trainee should feel routinely disrespected, intimidated, or afraid to raise legitimate concerns. Applicants considering UF Jacksonville should conduct careful due diligence and speak confidentially with a broad range of current and former residents before making such an important decision.
