Bummed during intern year

[internyearsux]

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I don't know what this will achieve, but maybe it's a good place to vent?

I'm starting Rads next year, but of course like everybody else, I gotta get through intern year. So unfortunately I ended up in a prelim surgery program. It's only 1/4th through intern year and I feel pretty burnt out and frustrated. My program is okay about sticking to the work hour restrictions, so in all reality I'm working 75 or so hours a week. But the endless scutwork, numerous nights in a row, working 6 days a week with NO golden weekends is really making me a more unhappy person than I was before. I just feel like a scut robot and just knowing there are 9 months to go still really stinks. To be honest, I'm really tired of seeing patients as well as interacting with nursing staff and even many of the clinicians (especially ER docs!!). Many ER docs I've met are cool, but it's frustrating to work with them when it comes to patient care... Sorry, I know I'm generalizing like crazy..

That being said, I always have good interactions with my hospital's Radiology department. I enjoy discussing the image findings on ordered studies with our radiologists, and again, not to generalize, but I feel like most radiologists I have met at my current hospital and in med school have personalities like mine, and I click with them.

Maybe I shouldn't complain - I know it was even worse before the hour restrictions. But it is putting things into perspective. Basically, I don't care about making mega dollars or being some big name big shot - I just want to do a job that I enjoy and enjoy my life outside of work.

I know for a fact that I thrive on learning medical knowledge from all organ systems, and I really enjoyed my Radiology rotations as a med student. It is still awesome for me to see CT's, MR's, and even plain films when I get the chance, because I love seeing anatomy and pathology. Medical imaging is very cool to me and I am hungry to learn as much as I can.

But this surgical year is making me cynical, and my hopes for my life as a Radiologist are decreasing. Is this an unfair conclusion? Do the hours, nights shifts, dealing with ER staff, high volume, etc. of Radiology make the pleasure of learning and applying the knowledge of medical imaging null? Would something like Pathology be a better alternative, because your hours are more regular and it may be more "relaxed" than Radiology with no night shifts or emergent studies? I actually did a path elective in med school, and it was okay. I liked the broad spectrum of knowledge like in Rads, but I found histo a little bit less interesting than medical imaging, and I wasn't a huge microscope fan. It would of course be a HUGE mess to backtrack out of Rads at this point.

Sorry for b****ing and moaning, I just am really starting to worry that I can't get my hopes up for Rads being the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[X.O.]

I did a surgical prelim year before rads. I started having suicidal ideation sometime around this year as well and you can read some of my old posts to see how much I hated life. It only gets worse .

Your purpose is to do scut so that the upper level residents can operate and so they dont have to pay a PA double what you're making to do the same exact work without call or nightfloat. Trying to pretend youre there for any other purpose is a lesson in futility and disappointment.

 

[shark2000]

I don't know what this will achieve, but maybe it's a good place to vent?

I'm starting Rads next year, but of course like everybody else, I gotta get through intern year. So unfortunately I ended up in a prelim surgery program. It's only 1/4th through intern year and I feel pretty burnt out and frustrated. My program is okay about sticking to the work hour restrictions, so in all reality I'm working 75 or so hours a week. But the endless scutwork, numerous nights in a row, working 6 days a week with NO golden weekends is really making me a more unhappy person than I was before. I just feel like a scut robot and just knowing there are 9 months to go still really stinks. To be honest, I'm really tired of seeing patients as well as interacting with nursing staff and even many of the clinicians (especially ER docs!!). Many ER docs I've met are cool, but it's frustrating to work with them when it comes to patient care... Sorry, I know I'm generalizing like crazy..

That being said, I always have good interactions with my hospital's Radiology department. I enjoy discussing the image findings on ordered studies with our radiologists, and again, not to generalize, but I feel like most radiologists I have met at my current hospital and in med school have personalities like mine, and I click with them.

Maybe I shouldn't complain - I know it was even worse before the hour restrictions. But it is putting things into perspective. Basically, I don't care about making mega dollars or being some big name big shot - I just want to do a job that I enjoy and enjoy my life outside of work.

I know for a fact that I thrive on learning medical knowledge from all organ systems, and I really enjoyed my Radiology rotations as a med student. It is still awesome for me to see CT's, MR's, and even plain films when I get the chance, because I love seeing anatomy and pathology. Medical imaging is very cool to me and I am hungry to learn as much as I can.

But this surgical year is making me cynical, and my hopes for my life as a Radiologist are decreasing. Is this an unfair conclusion? Do the hours, nights shifts, dealing with ER staff, high volume, etc. of Radiology make the pleasure of learning and applying the knowledge of medical imaging null? Would something like Pathology be a better alternative, because your hours are more regular and it may be more "relaxed" than Radiology with no night shifts or emergent studies? I actually did a path elective in med school, and it was okay. I liked the broad spectrum of knowledge like in Rads, but I found histo a little bit less interesting than medical imaging, and I wasn't a huge microscope fan. It would of course be a HUGE mess to backtrack out of Rads at this point.

Sorry for b****ing and moaning, I just am really starting to worry that I can't get my hopes up for Rads being the light at the end of the tunnel.

1- Surgery internship is tough, even surgery residents confess that their internship was the worst year of their training. I myself do not see any point in doing surgery internship unless you want to torture yourself or you do not have any other choice.
2- Try to just finish the year. Do the bare minimum that is required. Just finish it.
3- Radiology is not easy. The good part is that you do not need to interact with patients which is its hugest positive aspect. BUT otherwise, it is tough. You need to read a lot. Also you need to interact with almost all services.

4- If you do not like patient interaction you will be fine. That is typical for many radiologists. BUT, it you have problem interacting with other groups esp ERs docs, IM, surgery, Nurses, PAs, Orthopods, Neurosurgeons, Urologists, Ob-Gyns, pulmonologists, neurologists and ... you will be in great trouble. You will have much more interaction with other groups as a radiologist compared to what you have now. Many times the interaction is with a crazy, demanding person. You have to find a way to handle it.

a. ED doctor call you and yell at you because the study that was just finished 2 minutes ago is not read. Then just 5 minutes later they call you and ask for a "wet read" on Brain MRI that is still ongoing and they yell at you why the MRI scan time takes 1 hour and not 5 minutes.
b. Then IM doctor calls you at 3 a.m. yelling why we don't do cardiac MR at 3 a.m.
c. Then surgery calls you and wants you to change your report because they think your report is wrong and the patient has cholecystitis and not pneumonia.
d. Then neurosurgery comes to your room and laughing at you because they can not find the vertebral body fracture you reported and when you show them the fracture, they say "Oh, your monitors are better than ours".
e. Then orthopods come to you and want you to stop all the ER MRIs and do their whole spine MRI at 1 a.m. because they think the patient has Osteomyelitis.
f. Then the orthopods call you for CTA chest for PE and wants you to give contrast to a patient with Cr= 2.8 and the insist PE is more important than Renal function. When you tell them they can do V/Q scan they do it but with complaint.
h. Then you get a call because an NP wants an emergent thoracentesis on a patient with INR=5 and CHF.
i. Then the OB calls you and wants to order abdominal MRI to rule out Placenta previa ?????

Anyway, these are exaggerations, but will happen for sure during your residency and you have to be able to handle it. Don't get me wrong, I have had some of the best interactions with most clinicians. But there are times that you have to be able to control them and their demands, and at the same time do the best for the patient. This is a skill you really need. And if you think you can not handle these interactions/situations, some of which are horrible, don't do radiology.

 

[DrBowtie]

No advice as I'm in the thick of intern year as well. Just wanted to give you some encouragement to hang in there. Give radiology a shot before you think about switching fields.

 

[MrBurns10]

If radiology is the right field for you, it will indeed be the light at the end of the seemingly endless intern year tunnel. Earlier this year I did 2 straight weeks of 12 hour nights (by choice) and it was FAR more enjoyable than any stretch during intern year. And my intern year wasn't nearly as bad as yours is.

Do whatever you have to do to maintain your sanity, even if it means doing the bare minimum. Keep your head up...it's a painful but temporary punishment, but it'll be worth it.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

.

 

[ar2388]

you can make it!! it sucks... but with every month down, you will have less. and YOU NEVER EVER HAVE TO DO THIS AGAIN! you are strong enough and will make it through and will be forever done with it.

 

[colbgw02]

They can't stop the clock.

 

[gasblaster]

They can't stop the clock.

But they can always hurt you more.

 

[internyearsux]

Hey guys, thanks for the input.

X.O., sorry to hear your intern year was so horrendous and you were having those thoughts. Hope you're doing well now.

Maybe when things are especially rough, it seems like the good life would have been getting a Masters and going into teaching or something. This intern year has given me moments of doubts for sure, but in the end I always get excited about the rest of my career in Radiology. I guess many people in many different careers have to wade through s*** temporarily in order to achieve a good or great career for themselves ultimately. But you know, as much as I complain, there are still pretty frequent cool moments even during Surgery prelim. for me, in between the scut.

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

 

[cowme]

wait...so you are saying you hate surgery, and your only brief moments of happiness are when you see imaging examinations or hang out with radiologists? And this WORRIES you about your future in radiology?

 

[viper930]

Just out of curiosity, what made you choose to do a prelim surgery year to begin with? Masochism? Thought that you would learn a lot?

 

[internyearsux]

cowme - It's not the brief moments of looking at imaging or hanging with the radiologists that worry me. Those are the things among others that keep me stoked for Radiology. I guess my concerns are based on the fact that you still can have a pretty rigorous and irregular schedule even in Radiology. (With nights and covering the ER) Maybe my concerns are out of proportion, especially considering my hours now.. I think my tolerance for long hours is relatively high, but after this year, I'm really hoping for more reasonable hours.

No, I didn't want a surgery prelim.. It would have been great to get a TY or prelim medicine, but unfortunately didn't work out that way... Although it does seems like the surgeons get way more imaging that the internists, but I still don't think I'd recommend it to other future radiologists.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you didn't want a surgery prelim why did you apply to any or rank them? It's not like its hard to get a medicine prelim.

No, I didn't want a surgery prelim.. It would have been great to get a TY or prelim medicine, but unfortunately didn't work out that way... Although it does seems like the surgeons get way more imaging that the internists, but I still don't think I'd recommend it to other future radiologists.

 

[shark2000]

cowme - It's not the brief moments of looking at imaging or hanging with the radiologists that worry me. Those are the things among others that keep me stoked for Radiology. I guess my concerns are based on the fact that you still can have a pretty rigorous and irregular schedule even in Radiology. (With nights and covering the ER) Maybe my concerns are out of proportion, especially considering my hours now.. I think my tolerance for long hours is relatively high, but after this year, I'm really hoping for more reasonable hours.

No, I didn't want a surgery prelim.. It would have been great to get a TY or prelim medicine, but unfortunately didn't work out that way... Although it does seems like the surgeons get way more imaging that the internists, but I still don't think I'd recommend it to other future radiologists.

With the increasing number of groups covering nights and after hours with final read, you have to expect that kind of schedule, even if your residency hours are good.


I always say that radiology life style is in the middle of road, worse than many fields that you can think. It is way different than medical student rotation that you go at 9 am and leave at 3 pm.


Agree that surgery internship is useless.

 

[shark2000]

What are your hours in pp shark?


Honestly, if you ended up in a surgery prelim, you just didn't care about the app process at all. This is yet another cautionary tale for the current applicants. Worse yet are the rads applicants who are intentionally applying to prelim surg 2/2 an ill-informed perceived benefit for IR training. Why are otherwise super smart applicants so easily brainwashed? I'll never understand it.

Hours are very very different among different groups even in the same location. Still you can find groups that cover only 8-5. But most places at least in coastal big cities are doing 24 hour coverage with more after hours and nights going to newbies.
But the nice thing is that you are covering ED without having to deal with patients. Patient contact sucks.


Surgery internship is cheap labor to do scut work so seniors can go to the OR. if they want to hire a PA to work 80 hours a week, it will cost more, even twice in many places. Whoever, is saying otherwise, is either justifying his mistakes or is in a rare program that teach its interns.

 

[Magillicutty]

Hours are very very different among different groups even in the same location. Still you can find groups that cover only 8-5. But most places at least in coastal big cities are doing 24 hour coverage with more after hours and nights going to newbies.
But the nice thing is that you are covering ED without having to deal with patients. Patient contact sucks.


Surgery internship is cheap labor to do scut work so seniors can go to the OR. if they want to hire a PA to work 80 hours a week, it will cost more, even twice in many places. Whoever, is saying otherwise, is either justifying his mistakes or is in a rare program that teach its interns.

Shark, just curious, how much patient contact DO you have? And has the amount changed during your training/life after training?

 

[shark2000]

Shark, just curious, how much patient contact DO you have? And has the amount changed during your training/life after training?

Minimal patient contact is the best part of radiology and is appreciated by most radiologists. If you enjoy patient contact or think that you will miss it, don't do it.
I personally have little patient contact. My only time of patient contact is when I do procedures. Otherwise, nothing.
People who do mammo, have more patient contact. Still it is not comparable to the amount of patient contact in primary care or heavy clinic fields. Mammo has patient contact comparable to subspecialized outpatient procedural fields, probably like GI that only does colonoscopies or derm.
IR is a different field and I don't want to go into details. In summary, I believe if you think about IR, think about more than 10 surgical specialties before IR.

Good Luck.

 

[deleted263296]

You are thinking very similar thoughts to me. I am in prelim medicine but not surgery and I hate it with a passion. I hate interacting with patients and internal medicine physicians who obsess over endless amounts of mundane details. Also my resident treats me like I'm scum. I have pondered many times, OP, about dropping out and going into an alternative career. I'm disillusioned with this whole profession and don't have high hopes for it in light of all the healthcare reform. At times I think I would regret throwing away all these years of training and am considering switching into Pathology just to avoid this internship, which is exhausting me and turning me into an irritable, mean person. My health and relationships are suffering. I'm just curious what exactly would happen if you quit your internship. Does that mean you can't enter your residency?

 

[shark2000]

You are thinking very similar thoughts to me. I am in prelim medicine but not surgery and I hate it with a passion. I hate interacting with patients and internal medicine physicians who obsess over endless amounts of mundane details. Also my resident treats me like I'm scum. I have pondered many times, OP, about dropping out and going into an alternative career. I'm disillusioned with this whole profession and don't have high hopes for it in light of all the healthcare reform. At times I think I would regret throwing away all these years of training and am considering switching into Pathology just to avoid this internship, which is exhausting me and turning me into an irritable, mean person. My health and relationships are suffering. I'm just curious what exactly would happen if you quit your internship. Does that mean you can't enter your residency?

1- Relax, chill and try to finish it anyway. You have done almost 1/4 of it.
2- The start radiology, if you like it that is good. If you truly hate it, you can quit. As an MD who has done his internship, you will have more job opportunities than many other highly educated people even in non-clinical fields.
3- If you really think about pathology, go for it. It is one of the under-rated fields. Though it has a bad job market, by waiting 2-3 years after graduation, you can find a good job with really really good hours that pays more than many primary care fields.
4- Academics is another option esp in pathology. Academics is a place for people who hate medicine to hide. Esp if you enter research world and get some good grants you can minimize your clinical work to 1 day a week.
5- I can understand your feelings. the problem is medicine is general and specifically radiology is full of nerds, type B, weird , boring characters A doctor in 21 st century is a creature who spends most of his life in the hospitals and outside work, talks 70% either about medicine or about money. This makes medical work environment really boring esp if you do not like medicine itself.
6- Anyway, I highly recommend you to finish your internship and start radiology. Then if things do not get better, switch. Life is not long enough to do what you hate.