Is intern year useful for radiology?

[odyssey2]

Was your prelim year good for your training or was it just a useless hoop to jump through? Would it be better if medical students went straight into radiology, with maybe a condensed medicine/surgery experience in the first year?

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[TXRads]

Current applicant. From the people I've talked to I've gotten a resounding no, it's not useful for the actual practice of radiology. I've also heard 6 months could be useful just to get a feel for things and be familiar with the context & setting imaging is ordered in. But I've never heard a full year is good.

 

[Cognovi]

I think it was good for my training, but who really knows.

 

[Dave1980]

100% no.

Surgical rotations would actually be pretty useful to me know that I know the anatomy. Seeing it open/laparoscopic in the OR would be great.

Medicine rotations would still be useless.

 

[Neopolymath]

100% no.

Surgical rotations would actually be pretty useful to me know that I know the anatomy. Seeing it open/laparoscopic in the OR would be great.

Medicine rotations would still be useless.

And yet most of us do medicine because a surgery prelim is just too busy.

The whole system is dumb, frankly.

 

[Aurum]

Intern year has helped me 0% with DR.

 

[Clean7795]

My surgical rotations help me craft my reports. Medicine was not very helpful.

In general I would support the need for a mandatory PGY1 internship year in radiology. Managing patients yourself overnight helps build confidence in your clinical decision making and helps you understand some of the difficult situations that you can be put in that require imaging. A full year is probably not needed, maybe 9-10 months.

 

[AzBasRad]

My surgical rotations help me craft my reports. Medicine was not very helpful.

In general I would support the need for a mandatory PGY1 internship year in radiology. Managing patients yourself overnight helps build confidence in your clinical decision making and helps you understand some of the difficult situations that you can be put in that require imaging. A full year is probably not needed, maybe 9-10 months.

Isn't that how most prelim IM/surg years are already structured - 9-10 months of floors, 1-2 months of electives, 1 month vacation.

I also support PGY-1 internship as well. Some of the TY programs I have interviewed at will allow me to experience MS4 life again.

 

[Rad2013]

I don’t think it was useful. It was by far the most fun year of training for me though. But it “costs” you a few hundred thousand dollars by delaying your radiology career a year.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I don’t think it was useful. It was by far the most fun year of training for me though. But it “costs” you a few hundred thousand dollars by delaying your radiology career a year.

What made it a fun year for you? I’m asking as a 3rd year med student who would love an internship year that is fun lol

 

[Rad2013]

1.) Cush TY year. Lots of electives. Low key options for electives (do from home type stuff). Medicine rotations were with family medicine, which tend to be a nice group of people.

2.) I could treat it more like a regular job. Work hard while at work and then the rest of my time was my own. Not the same kind of pressure to go home and study for the rest of the evening like in radiology.

3.) Had a good group of TY and family medicine residents. Lots of socializing. Going out, beach volleyball, baseball games, etc. My rads group wasn’t nearly as social. Still a good group of people though.

 

[Neopolymath]

Any time I hear of someone saying intern year was good it's because they were at a cush TY that barely resembles what most people know as intern year lol.

This isn't directed at Rad2013. I'm glad they had a great year! It's just funny because it always goes "I had a good intern year" *procedes to describe a non-medicine/surgery year (or fake TY). Most people are not so lucky to do a cush TY even if we all generally want to do so.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

Kinda echoing the above (I'm a 4th year applicant who has asked quite a few residents along the way just to make sure I make a good decision for myself), I have generally heard that it doesn't help with rads. I could see how it might help you understand the workflow though for sure, but I doubt that would take someone 1 year to understand.

As for surgical - even going the ESIR route - I've heard it does give you an initial advantage when you first start R1, but you are in a resident group of fellow people who are equally smart & the learning curve quickly goes away & that advantage you may have (of anatomy, familiarity with CTs, etc.) quickly fades.

Ultimately I've been told time & time again to just try to find a TY with lots of electives with residents that seem happy. Maybe even in a cool location you'd like to spend a year in.

 

[Ask Jeeves MD]

What would you consider lots of electives? Any programs in the Midwest known to be cush? Particularly interested in the Iowa TYs

 

[Rad2013]

I think I had 5 months of electives.

 

[Ask Jeeves MD]

Nice, that’s the max I’ve found so far. Seems a lot better than 8+ months of inpatient

 

[RadsRocks!]

The TY programs very vastly. The ones in middle of nowhere are usually ultra chill. Some programs in more urban places are super competitive but like a 5 out 10 in chillness factor with. And there are some that are actually just as bad or worse as prelim medicine..

In a perfect world i think it would be better to have all programs be categorical and have the first half as: 2 months IM wards, 1 month surgery, 1 month ICU, 1 month outpatient medicine subspecialties, 1 month outpatient surgery subspecialties, then 6 month radiology. That was you can see all the medicine stuff you need in the 6 months, start what you actually care about in intern year, dont have to move more than once, and you are familiar with the hospital you will be working in and the referring clinicians. You'll take the core exam in the November of R3 so can have 18 months of mini-fellowships or a 1 mini-fellowship and an actual fellowship with certificate completed in the 5 years (thus saving you a year if not doing IR)

But no one cares what i have to say.

 

[qwerty89]

Best compromise would be every program becoming integrated with 6 months of clinical rotations PGY-1 (2 months surgery, 2 months medicine, 1 month ER, 1 month ambulatory) and 6 extra months radiology.

That way "R1s" would be able to take call half way into that year which spreads out call throughout residency. Its also 6 more months of rotations which means a mini-fellowship or just more electives to improve in whatever areas you are weakest in.

Doh. RadsRocks! just said the same thing.

 

[.Asterion]

Currently a TY, I’m enjoying it but I’ve learned zero imaging related info.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

I did a cush TY in a great city and had a lot of electives.

I do think it was useful in providing clinical context and being on the other side of the imaging order.

I was also able to do a good bit of DR, IR, and other "endovascular surgery" during it.

 

[Neopolymath]

I did a cush TY in a great city and had a lot of electives.

I do think it was useful in providing clinical context and being on the other side of the imaging order.

I was also able to do a good bit of DR, IR, and other "endovascular surgery" during it.

What's the deal with doing rads electives during a TY with no attached radiology residency? I've seen conflicting things.

 

[Cognovi]

What's the deal with doing rads electives during a TY with no attached radiology residency? I've seen conflicting things.

You're not supposed to do it

 

[Rad2013]

Why not?

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Yes.

It gave me the "clinical correlation" edge to be quite honest. I also worked my ass off during my medicine intern year.

 

[stcl]

Short answer: No

Long Answer: No, probably almost zero use for your eventual practice as an attending radiologist. The main points you learn as an intern are management of patients and how to navigate the system of the hospital. This can provide some help as a resident. And it definitely helps when rotating on IR as a resident. But by the time you're an attending in DR, a) you'll have forgetten most of the important details of clinical management, and b) even if you remember some, clinical guidelines change.

The ideal in my mind would be to give people an option to take a somewhat harder MS4 year of med school with a couple extra sub-Is in the spring, and then skip the intern year entirely. Since that isn't possible, I recommend people do the easiest TY they can. Try to learn a couple things along the way and practice safe patient care, while not overburdening yourself mentally or stressing too much about the intern year.

 

[Rad2013]

Didn’t university of New Mexico radiology residency have some sort of integrated internship where you went straight into radiology after med school and then later in residency when you had a decent amount of radiology knowledge you served as a radiology consultant on floors with the clinical team?

Maybe I’m making that up.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Didn’t university of New Mexico radiology residency have some sort of integrated internship where you went straight into radiology after med school and then later in residency when you had a decent amount of radiology knowledge you served as a radiology consultant on floors with the clinical team?

Maybe I’m making that up.

I think umkc used to be like that but acgme didn’t like it so they had to make the year more pointless.

 

[Rad2013]

That sounds about right for the ACGME.

 

[BillrothI]

Didn’t university of New Mexico radiology residency have some sort of integrated internship where you went straight into radiology after med school and then later in residency when you had a decent amount of radiology knowledge you served as a radiology consultant on floors with the clinical team?

Maybe I’m making that up.

That is accurate. I don't remember the logistics, but I think their preliminary year was a "radiology consultant" year, or something to that effect.

-Bill

 

[BillrothI]

1.) Cush TY year. Lots of electives. Low key options for electives (do from home type stuff). Medicine rotations were with family medicine, which tend to be a nice group of people.

2.) I could treat it more like a regular job. Work hard while at work and then the rest of my time was my own. Not the same kind of pressure to go home and study for the rest of the evening like in radiology.

3.) Had a good group of TY and family medicine residents. Lots of socializing. Going out, beach volleyball, baseball games, etc. My rads group wasn’t nearly as social. Still a good group of people though.

Echoing Rad2013's sentiment.

I completed a standard IM intern year. It was completely pointless with regard to radiology. However, it was also a hell of a lot more fun than radiology residency. Rounding with a team can actually be enjoyable if you work with good people, and there's never any pressure to study when the day is done, as most of us have a pretty decent fund of basic knowledge from medical school.

Bottom line: don't dread your intern year. Even if it is totally irrelevant, it can be a great experience.

-Bill

 

[Zen Arcade]

Echoing Rad2013's sentiment.

I completed a standard IM intern year. It was completely pointless with regard to radiology. However, it was also a hell of a lot more fun than radiology residency. Rounding with a team can actually be enjoyable if you work with good people, and there's never any pressure to study when the day is done, as most of us have a pretty decent fund of basic knowledge from medical school.

Bottom line: don't dread your intern year. Even if it is totally irrelevant, it can be a great experience.

-Bill

You sure you went into the right specialty? lol Not saying rounding can't be enjoyable with a good group, but I feel like quite a few people who go into rads want to get away from the endless rounding in medicine and sit in front of computer and plug away.

 

[Pinocytosis]

but I feel like quite a few people who go into rads want to get away from the endless rounding in medicine and sit in front of computer and plug away.

This is the exact reason I applied rads haha

 

[Rad2013]

Most of my medicine rounds were sit-down rounds with attending, 3rd year resident, 2-3 interns, pharmacist, pharmacy resident, social worker and coffee. So much less painful. And frankly, much more productive. Traditional walking rounds are the worst.

 

[Cognovi]

Why not?

Because the ACGME said so. Who knows why

 

[Splenda88]

Maybe radiology should be a 4-yr categorical residency if most find the prelim year to be useless...

 

[Pinocytosis]

Maybe radiology should be a 4-yr categorical residency if most find the prelim year to be useless...

I've always wondered why it's not like this. Is there pushback from ABR and/or ACGME?

 

[Cognovi]

I've always wondered why it's not like this. Is there pushback from ABR and/or ACGME?

Yes. Here is the latest exchange in the literature (by the past ABR executive director): https://www.academicradiology.org/article/S1076-6332(15)00555-3/fulltext

 

[Pinocytosis]

Yes. Here is the latest exchange in the literature (by the past ABR executive director): https://www.academicradiology.org/article/S1076-6332(15)00555-3/fulltext

Interesting read. Thank you.

 

[fun8stuff]

No. It was a waste of a year.... I’m 6 years post fellowship now.