Buy in or Start from scratch out of Residency

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

36Tango

New Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2024
Messages
8
Reaction score
8
I posted this initially in the wrong place, so I took the suggestion of starting a new thread. I do appreciate the comments on the original thread.

I am not certain if this is the right place, BUT, my daughter will be completing her Podiatric Surgical Residency in June. She knows the area in which she wants to live and has reached out to a few private practices. The long term goal would either to either become a partner, or start her own in 3 years. I know zero about medicine but have been an entrepreneur all my life.

If she were to offer to a small private practice to earn 100% of her income from billing, what would that look like? What percentage would get in the ballpark? What kind of contractual language does there need to be for a "buy in"? Does the value of a practice typically get based off of revenue or ebitda? She is debt free and initial income is not as important as long term opportunity. There are many, many, smart Podiatrists, but growing up in our household she has a business sense that I have not seen in many of her peers.

Thanks in advance
 
If she were to offer to a small private practice to earn 100% of her income from billing, what would that look like?
With a podiatry group employing you it doesn’t look any different than base + % collections in most cases.

What kind of contractual language does there need to be for a "buy in"?
It’s no different than any partnership agreement or equity agreement in other businesses. Any conditions that need to be met to partner should be included, timeline, actual $ amount or well defined formula for its calculation in the future. You won’t get that in your first contract as a podiatry associate though so…

Does the value of a practice typically get based off of revenue or ebitda?
Generally some % of revenue. As Feli mentioned elsewhere, you are mostly paying for goodwill. Equipment isn’t worth much and even if a practice owns the building they aren’t always willing to sell that or allow you to own a share of it. They want to keep leasing it back to the practice forever.

start her own in 3 years
No, start her own right out of residency. If she wants to run her own business she just needs to start her own from day 1. Or if she can land a hospital/MSG employed job anywhere in the country for the first few years, figure out how she wants to treat various pathologies, make much better money (hundreds of thousands of dollars per year more than an associate in a podiatry group) and save as much of it as she can, then she can open up her own practice in her city of choice. That would also work. Taking an associate job with plan to partner is almost laughable in this profession. It happens maybe 10% of the time.
 
I entered into an associate arrangement after residency with the desire to partner...and boy did I get what I wanted good and hard, but that's another story for another thread.

People talk on here about how the path to partnership needs to be spelled out in the associate contract. I got it on good legal authority from my own attorney when I was finishing that NONE OF THIS IS ENFORCEABLE. You could be a great doctor, highly productive, great reviews, and none of that obligates anyone to co-own their business with you.

The chief advantage of buying out a business is you have no disruption to your cash flows, and you're wired into existing referral patterns. You bypass the cute solo provider stage where you're your own secretary because you only see 5 patients per day. You're already seeing your 20-30 patients/day and you have the staffing to support you.

I see a lot of ads for near-retiring docs looking to create a succession plan. So they sell while staying on as a part time consultant. IF they've bothered at all to keep the place current, this can be an attractive investment.

Starting solo can work...or she could struggle. I have a classmate who is anchored to a pretty saturated metro and his business has taken a while to get off the ground, still not humming.
 
I posted this initially in the wrong place, so I took the suggestion of starting a new thread. I do appreciate the comments on the original thread.

I am not certain if this is the right place, BUT, my daughter will be completing her Podiatric Surgical Residency in June. She knows the area in which she wants to live and has reached out to a few private practices. The long term goal would either to either become a partner, or start her own in 3 years. I know zero about medicine but have been an entrepreneur all my life.

If she were to offer to a small private practice to earn 100% of her income from billing, what would that look like? What percentage would get in the ballpark? What kind of contractual language does there need to be for a "buy in"? Does the value of a practice typically get based off of revenue or ebitda? She is debt free and initial income is not as important as long term opportunity. There are many, many, smart Podiatrists, but growing up in our household she has a business sense that I have not seen in many of her peers.

Thanks in advance

If she decides to be hired by a podiatrist, supergroup, or mobile nailcare company on a fully collections based income they will typically offer 30-35% of collections. Worst I saw was 25%, best I heard of but not seen was 40%

If she can swing working for a multispecialty group, 40-50% is common. 50-70% is rare but possible. Best I saw was 70%
 
Start your own practice. If they know the area well and people in the community and they know her that’s a huge advantage. A lot easier to start a business when you have home town connections.

Figure out funding and do it.

Do not buy anyone’s practice because it will be over priced

Do not work for another podiatrist ever. EVER
 
Going to voice the above opinions.

Start your own.

Figure out the minimum number she needs to open up shop: Leasing or just outright buying the office space. Supplies. Chairs/hardware. EMR. Licensing. Malpractice insurance.

Figure out how to apply for insurances- Medicare/medicaid. Fill out CAQH. Reach out to whatever other groups that go insurance hunting for you.

Figure out what licenses she needs- State DPM license, DEA license, Malpractice

Figure out what local hospitals are around her and get her credentialed. Prior to doing this you will need license + malpractice + previous claims loss history (get this from her residency program- talk to HR). If she is ABFAS qualified or ABPM Certed already this will help. Some hospitals may also only let her do certain surgeries pending her qualifications with ABFAS/ABPM.

She will be able to pick up billing fine within 2 weeks. Its straightforward. Go to courses or ask her colleagues/mentors if she has questions.

You do not need 3 years working for someone else to be "ready" to start your own practice. 1 year maybe if you want to see how things are run.

Coming from someone fresh out who thought they weren't good enough- she can do it.

If she has any specific concerns that are holding her from building straight out of residency- just ask her so we can give more input.
 
I entered into an associate arrangement after residency with the desire to partner...and boy did I get what I wanted good and hard, but that's another story for another thread.
IMG_6906.gif
 
...

You do not need 3 years working for someone else to be "ready" to start your own practice. 1 year maybe if you want to see how things are run.
...
Yes, that is what I said in the other thread.
Many residencies are weak or VERY weak on actual podiatry billing and private practice training/exp.
One or two years as an associate in a good PP is not bad. There is serious learning value.
It is also basically impossible to get onto most plans/hospitals while still a resident (that time gap doesn't matter if family $$, though).
Ergo, the employed year or two can work well. It's best to pick a well-run PP in the target area. This does assume there not enforceable non-competes in the target state/area... and you will still have a bit of an adversary in the employer once you leave. C'est la vie.

"There are two ways to learn: your mistakes, or someone else's.
One's cheaper, and one is faster... and they're the same one.
"

It is a LOT to take on doing the clinical/med/surg right out of training AND doing the biz/admin/boss aspect. That is the main reason to do it stepwise. It can be done fresh out.... but one doesn't know what they don't know. You gain a ton of ideas from working in a good PP... with hopefully mentorship and low consequences. It is rough figuring out your pre-op logistics while having staff interviews or bickering or stealing from you. For that reasoning, I would stagger going solo a bit even if one has the family/own money to start solo right away (I'd say only <10% do). Personally, I staggered it about a decade due to building funds and finding a good place to do it... but you learn all the way at every stop.

...as said in the other thread, for buyouts, the goodwill and its transfer-ability is what is possibly worth buying (or spending time/money to quicken with a startup office). It is nearly impossible to find buyouts truly worth it, for many reasons. For example: my branding or phone number or my physical location are not too valuable (rent office). My office chairs and instruments and computers and etc are worth very little. The staff or "system" I created is worth little as a buyer would change system and likely lose most/all staff. The facts that my biller is great or I'm on all are plans are not valuable as any buyer would get a new TIN/EIN and get their own systems. However, the fact that I get 10+ new patient refers daily and have solid connections in my town and surrounding areas is the value and what is hard to build (or VERY hard to displace as a competitor). My ability (or refusal) to stay a bit to help transfer to a new doc those connections to primary care docs who refer, other specialist docs, hospital folks, current patients, community folks holds the main value. If I share my past marketing successes and intel of the community, that's probably a bit valuable. It's largely subjective.

Overall, there are just so many types of practices. Many podiatrists are successful due to the rep and popularity of the doc; some are skill of the surgeon (rarer procedures or whatever). Those types are not easily transferable unless the outgoing doc is highly cooperative and new doc is similar personality/skill. Other podiatry offices are just toenail cutting farms or wound slop Medicaid mills or only-doc-in-town rural ones... that stuff is fairly transferable... but also very easy to just build from scratch in most places. That is why practices are so hard to put a $ figure onto.

For simple numbers, office value is usually net income (avg of last 3 years) or half gross income (avg of last 3yrs) for the practice... but that's assuming that in that timespan:
  • no major docs came/left or reduced/raised hours
  • no major location/staff/area/services changes
  • no major competitors have moved into area
  • new doc can offer same or more services
  • old doc wasn't inflating numbers with fraud or nonsense (such as a bunch of "graft" revenue... soon basically not done)
  • maybe 3-6 months overlap by old doc to actively transfer goodwill by making introductions and marketing tour with new doc
There are a lot of pricing factors. Any major equipment or furniture or bad/missing stuff could +/- price. Real estate may or may not be included (unlikely for podiatry). There will generally be huuuge difference in valuation by buyer and seller - often rightly so by both of their logic. I've only seen it work fairly well a couple times (both rural "only show in town" type practices, retiring doc sold for a decent price... other one was a too high price imo, but buyer liked it, so that works fine). At the end of the day, any practice is "worth" the price the seller will accept and buyer is willing and able to pay... Nothing more or less. Hospitals and supergroups buying small/solo pod offices use ebita, yeah (and they actually use it to grind way down on offices they acquire)... but very unlikely for doc to doc sales to use that. All of this is why it's just better to start your own and build it to your own specs an style and liking (whenever she has ideas and feels ready for that). GLuck
 
Last edited:
The value of a practice is generally based on revenue. You have to look at gross and net revenue when valuing a practice.
50% of gross revenue is a reasonable starting point for negotiations in my opinion. You need to assume a loss of 20% of existing patients when a new doctor takes over.
 
Thoughts on private practice buy out in a rural area for what I’m hoping is a fair price due to being a family friend (they do own the building where the practice is as well) vs working for community hospital in same town. The hospital wanted to buy the pods practice and hire him but he refused. This decision is in my future in the next 5 years or so as he is wanting to retire around that time.
 
Last edited:
Thoughts on private practice buy out in a rural area for what I’m hoping is a fair price due to being a family friend (they do own the building where the practice is as well) vs working for community hospital in same town. The hospital wanted to buy the pods practice and hire him but he refused. This decision is in my future in the next 5 years or so as he is wanting to retire around that time.

Do you want to run a business or not? Commercial reimbursements can be awesome in a rural area, but volume is usually limited and growth of a practice is capped at some point. Usually no ancillary revenue streams to buy into either when you’re rural. Income between the two jobs is probably a wash. Which leads us back to: do you want to answer to yourself (and the headache that can come with it) or answer to a hospital administrator?
 
Going to voice the above opinions.

Start your own.

Figure out the minimum number she needs to open up shop: Leasing or just outright buying the office space. Supplies. Chairs/hardware. EMR. Licensing. Malpractice insurance.

Figure out how to apply for insurances- Medicare/medicaid. Fill out CAQH. Reach out to whatever other groups that go insurance hunting for you.

Figure out what licenses she needs- State DPM license, DEA license, Malpractice

Figure out what local hospitals are around her and get her credentialed. Prior to doing this you will need license + malpractice + previous claims loss history (get this from her residency program- talk to HR). If she is ABFAS qualified or ABPM Certed already this will help. Some hospitals may also only let her do certain surgeries pending her qualifications with ABFAS/ABPM.

She will be able to pick up billing fine within 2 weeks. Its straightforward. Go to courses or ask her colleagues/mentors if she has questions.

You do not need 3 years working for someone else to be "ready" to start your own practice. 1 year maybe if you want to see how things are run.

Coming from someone fresh out who thought they weren't good enough- she can do it.

If she has any specific concerns that are holding her from building straight out of residency- just ask her so we can give more input.

I like the way you think! She has the medicine side of it down and feels very, very comfortable with it. It is the business side that makes her a bit nervous, hence wanting to buy an existing business. I have probably bought or started 20 businesses and there is usually value in buying existing, but to what extend is the million dollar question.

Is there a resource where a guy can go to to get a proforma of what it looks like to start new? What companies do billing/coding? What business software is the best? At the end of the day starting fresh is mostly about patient acquisition, it seems. Is there a one stop resource that can help set up a practice?
 
I like the way you think! She has the medicine side of it down and feels very, very comfortable with it. It is the business side that makes her a bit nervous, hence wanting to buy an existing business. I have probably bought or started 20 businesses and there is usually value in buying existing, but to what extend is the million dollar question.

Is there a resource where a guy can go to to get a proforma of what it looks like to start new? What companies do billing/coding? What business software is the best? At the end of the day starting fresh is mostly about patient acquisition, it seems. Is there a one stop resource that can help set up a practice?
There are podiatrists out there that coach as a side job. They can guide podiatrists step by step into opening up their practice and answer all of your questions. A few will pop up if you google “podiatry business coach.” I haven’t personally used one so I don’t know the fees associated with them.
 
When I was in school some guy came and talked to us about doing MIS bunion surgery for cash. Supposedly he does these somewhere in the Caribbean for like 10k cash upfront. Then he gets pods to pay him to come show them how to do these MIS cases. Seemed really shady to me. The above post reminded me of it.
 
When I was in school some guy came and talked to us about doing MIS bunion surgery for cash. Supposedly he does these somewhere in the Caribbean for like 10k cash upfront.
For sure shady, but man what a lifestyle. You could live like a king in the Caribbean at those rates (if anyone pays them).
 
Does anybody know the range what USFAS pays for a practice as far as a multiple of EDITDA? On the open market, what is the range of EBITDA multiples for, say a 3 DR practice?

We are really considering either buying an existing practice or starting from scratch. If the multiple is any more than 2-3, I just cannot see buying an existing practice.

Does anybody have any real world experience of starting from scratch straight out of residency? What are the biggest challenges in starting from scratch?
 
When I was in school some guy came and talked to us about doing MIS bunion surgery for cash. Supposedly he does these somewhere in the Caribbean for like 10k cash upfront. Then he gets pods to pay him to come show them how to do these MIS cases. Seemed really shady to me. The above post reminded me of it.
There's plenty of these in the US too. A guy in the city I trained did it and he has a big house on a nice lake. We'd see his nonunions occasionally come through clinic. Classic no fixation MIS bunion type stuff.
 
...Does anybody have any real world experience of starting from scratch straight out of residency? What are the biggest challenges in starting from scratch?
As above: that she has no idea how to bill/collect. Little idea how an office runs. Little idea how to train staff.

Pod office is not particularly expensive for physical space/supplies/meds/etc. Marketing is needed for startup but can be fairly cheap.

It's just better to work a job for a year or two, make notes, make supplies lists, get some exp, learn a bit... then go solo. GL
 
Well, I believe that she is going to go to work as an Associate at a private practice somewhere around the country for a couple of years, preferably in an office with a fast pace and one day a week, or so, in the OR. the opportunity to buy a practice ended when the Dr wanted about 1.75 times gross income which is about 8 times net profit. He did offer her an Associate job, starting at zero, no guaranteed salary, she would have to pay her own malpractice, and no paid time off or vacation. It would be for a straight 35% of collections and she would be expected to sign a non-compete that would keep her even from getting a hospital job or a multi specialty job if she decided that PP was not for her. I cannot imagine any podiatry practice selling at that multiple. She wants more experience at the Dr end of things before starting her own practice. Thanks for all of the insights for helping me get up to speed on the medical side of business.
 
...the opportunity to buy a practice ended when the Dr wanted about 1.75 times gross income which is about 8 times net profit. ...
They all do.

I had done tour/discuss and buy in/out plan with a few pods over the years (Mich, Cali, NC, etc). None wanted under 1x gross. Nuts.
Many practices had been shrinking or weren't even much to begin with (I simply wanted a foothold in the new area to not start at zero).
The *most* logical one I saw wanted about $1M for a 3 doc - effectively 2.0 docs (other 2 besides owner were part time) two offices practice netting a bit under that $1M (price seems high but might be ok)... but wanted me to work associate 2-3yrs to do that buy, wanted to keep the real estate and I'd rent from him after buy... no effin way. They're mostly insane. That's just how it is.

The real funny thing is that, those old guys who think it's a $1M or even $2M practice (when it gross/net about 800/500k... and is therefore maybe worth about the net, assuming good rep/refer base)... they will likely end up selling out to some podiatry supergroup or Upperline or some dumb VC company for $100k or $200k or something years later when they have no takers on their huge price tag from other DPMs or their associate docs laugh at the "partner" offers. Some will even just fold the practice and sell any equipment for pennies on the dollar - or even pay to move/dispose of it.

...as said, just have her work, learn billing, make her mistakes on somebody else's patients. It's faster and easier and less consequence on her own rep.
Fyi, non-competes don't matter in some states (illegal)... they matter very much in others. Talk to local employment attorney for contract review.
Even if she thinks she won't stay in that associate job area, things change. She'll get to know ppl... important to know if she could stay/start there.

Starting up cold, in most MCOL / LCOL areas, is really not too hard or too expensive (for podiatry). It's best option for most DPMs.
It takes some time and some marketing, but I don't know anyone half talented and likeable who didn't land on their feet pretty fast.
 
Last edited:
Well, I believe that she is going to go to work as an Associate at a private practice somewhere around the country for a couple of years, preferably in an office with a fast pace and one day a week, or so, in the OR. the opportunity to buy a practice ended when the Dr wanted about 1.75 times gross income which is about 8 times net profit. He did offer her an Associate job, starting at zero, no guaranteed salary, she would have to pay her own malpractice, and no paid time off or vacation. It would be for a straight 35% of collections and she would be expected to sign a non-compete that would keep her even from getting a hospital job or a multi specialty job if she decided that PP was not for her. I cannot imagine any podiatry practice selling at that multiple. She wants more experience at the Dr end of things before starting her own practice. Thanks for all of the insights for helping me get up to speed on the medical side of business.
Looks like you guys dodged a bullet.

Props for looking out for your daughter and knowing enough to spot a bad deal.
Tell her to learn as much as she can, not just the doctoring part but how they run their office.

It will be a bajillion times easier to open afterwards because she will know what she wants.
 
Well, I believe that she is going to go to work as an Associate at a private practice somewhere around the country for a couple of years, preferably in an office with a fast pace and one day a week, or so, in the OR. the opportunity to buy a practice ended when the Dr wanted about 1.75 times gross income which is about 8 times net profit. He did offer her an Associate job, starting at zero, no guaranteed salary, she would have to pay her own malpractice, and no paid time off or vacation. It would be for a straight 35% of collections and she would be expected to sign a non-compete that would keep her even from getting a hospital job or a multi specialty job if she decided that PP was not for her. I cannot imagine any podiatry practice selling at that multiple. She wants more experience at the Dr end of things before starting her own practice. Thanks for all of the insights for helping me get up to speed on the medical side of business.
Oh yes I remember when I just decided to spend a day in the OR. It was just that easy.
 
Looks like you guys dodged a bullet.
I have bought and sold many business's including ones started from scratch. I know my way around pretty well, along with being able to really dive into financials. If they were serious, we were ready to write the check.
That said, I had never looked into purchasing a medical practice. Medical real estate, yes, but never a practice. I did retain Mike Crosby to look over my shoulder to at least support my thoughts, and his cost was nothing compared to making a bad decision. It would be just as bad, maybe even worse to make the bad decision of NOT buying something that was a solid deal. Mike was allot of help in making that determination.
In 2-3 years she will come back to town, we will open that practice, and scale it quickly to the appropriate size.
 
I have bought and sold many business's including ones started from scratch. I know my way around pretty well, along with being able to really dive into financials. If they were serious, we were ready to write the check.
That said, I had never looked into purchasing a medical practice. Medical real estate, yes, but never a practice. I did retain Mike Crosby to look over my shoulder to at least support my thoughts, and his cost was nothing compared to making a bad decision. It would be just as bad, maybe even worse to make the bad decision of NOT buying something that was a solid deal. Mike was allot of help in making that determination.
In 2-3 years she will come back to town, we will open that practice, and scale it quickly to the appropriate size.
Steady referral sources.
Tap into local PCP, NP, PA offices.

Even if you are surrounded by podiatry groups, if their schedules are full, those patients still need to go somewhere.
 
I have bought and sold many business's including ones started from scratch. I know my way around pretty well, along with being able to really dive into financials. If they were serious, we were ready to write the check.
That said, I had never looked into purchasing a medical practice. Medical real estate, yes, but never a practice. I did retain Mike Crosby to look over my shoulder to at least support my thoughts, and his cost was nothing compared to making a bad decision. It would be just as bad, maybe even worse to make the bad decision of NOT buying something that was a solid deal. Mike was allot of help in making that determination.
In 2-3 years she will come back to town, we will open that practice, and scale it quickly to the appropriate size.
I still think there are enough people saying you have to be in the arena. Obviously you have some financial means ...be that backbone for her and get working now. No point in making someone else money. You get experience by living it. Not working for someone else. Is she trying to learn to be a better clinician? Cool can do that for someone else. Trying to learn to run a practice and be a business owner....you don't learn that from someone else. You will never be able to accurately peak behind the scenes.
 
know theres many variables, but what is a realistic gross rev target in private practice without burnout?
 
Concur... 500-800k, keep half that is a good goal for solo.
I'm on the low end of that, but I don't work a ton.
It could be a bit higher in a group, good payer area, etc.

If you get real far above that, it's very possible you are either doing some questionable stuff ("custom" dme, "grafts", etc)... and/or you're working a whole lot, staying late doing notes, high volume of pts, doing hospital call/consults, etc. That stuff kinda defeats the point of PP imo.
 
My partners regularly grossed 500k just doing c&c and plastic crap.

Meanwhile I'm the overachiever of the group 😵
 
Top