Buying a rental property/house before start (1-2 years) Med school

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OLDwood

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(1.) How will it affect my loan application/amount if I have a rental property?

PLUS
(2.) Did you buy a "life" or permanent insurance just in case something happens and your family won't have to pay your debts?

Any wise investment/saving plan before start of Med/Dental school?


Thanks

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Honestly mate, the only place where i feel 100% safe in investing right now is commodities. The commodities bull market is still running strong, and many commodities like sugar and silver are way below their all time high prices. I would probably shy away from buying a house for the time being, as medical school will be enough work (remember, a house is really only an asset if you are renting it out, so you'll have to be a landlord as well). Thats the best i can give ya. Mining shares are good but do your homework. Avoid mutual funds, unless its with someone you know is very skilled with the markets. You'll want someone who actually was able to profit from the collapse in 2008 or whenever it was. Im sure there are also a bunch of investment schemes you can do with your bank, but after the news on MF Global, I've become more cautious with financial institutions in general (thankfully i live in canada where the banks are some of the safest in the world).

Check out this video: ( http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=CA#/watch?v=49n8TzvQJjk ) at
If you don't know about what happened with MF global recently, i suggest you do. time starting at 24:14 -- Copied from the top comment, "it is LEGAL for a firm to co-mingle client funds with firm funds when the co-mingling comes about by reason of involvement with the securities of a sovereign nation. THAT MEANS NO ONE's MONEY IS SAFE in Schwab, E-trade, Ameritrade, Fidelity, Banks, etc. because YOUR MONEY CAN LEGALLY be used by any firm if the money is being used in connection with the securities of a sovereign nation!" We still need to wait and see what happens to the people responsible for loosing all of their clients money, but the take home message is to be very cautious with who you place money with.

Other people will have their own advice though, and im a bit more paranoid than most. All i know is that America is due for another financial crisis (because they haven't solved any problems since the first crisis, they only kicked the can down the road), and if im right, you'll want to avoid holding your wealth in most investment classes that are written on paper (though i do expect the american dollar and the new york stock exchange to rally upwards in the short term as uncertainty on the euro grows. But the rally wont be because the american dollar is any better/safer...it will just be because people intrisically believe that the dollar is a good flight to safety)

EDIT: I would also avoid bothering with life insurance (at this time). I dont know of any medical student who has done that. Unless you get a cheap rate, i wouldn't bother. Honestly, its hard for me to tell someone not to get life insurance, because if they happen to walk outside and get shot by Al Quaida one day, I'll kinda feel like a tool! I guess its a considerate thing to do, but that'll be up to you
 
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EDIT: I would also avoid bothering with life insurance (at this time). I dont know of any medical student who has done that. Unless you get a cheap rate, i wouldn't bother. Honestly, its hard for me to tell someone not to get life insurance, because if they happen to walk outside and get shot by Al Quaida one day, I'll kinda feel like a tool! I guess its a considerate thing to do, but that'll be up to you

My parents took out a life insurance policy on me at the start of Medical School. Their reasoning was that the student loans don't go away even in death so they wanted to be protected in case something happened. It is great idea if you have a family and want to protect them financially in the event that something happens because the loans can add up to quite a bit and you won't have the attending salary on the back end to be able to repay it. Remember things like MVAs are the most common reason people die in the 20s/30s, which have no warning so it's not like you are planning for it. They also were able to lock into a great rate because I was quite healthy and young and it's a rate that I'll be carrying for a long long time.
 
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Yeah i guess you're right. Ive seen a lot of plans that are only like $15 a month
 
My parents took out a life insurance policy on me at the start of Medical School. Their reasoning was that the student loans don't go away even in death so they wanted to be protected in case something happened. It is great idea if you have a family and want to protect them financially in the event that something happens because the loans can add up to quite a bit and you won't have the attending salary on the back end to be able to repay it. Remember things like MVAs are the most common reason people die in the 20s/30s, which have no warning so it's not like you are planning for it. They also were able to lock into a great rate because I was quite healthy and young and it's a rate that I'll be carrying for a long long time.

Student Loans are discharged/released if the student taking them out has a death. You parents, spouse, life partner does not need to have any concerns of having this 'debt' to repay if something were to happen to you...

As far as a Life Insurance policy.... Term is the only way to go; personally I would only consider buying such if you are married and moreso if you have children and as you progress into residency or last years of medical school. Unless you just want your parents to have a big check if something were to happen to you... If that was the case, I would ask the parents to pay the premium since they would get all the benefit in your death.

The bigger issue would be disability and not death; I think you can request for loans to be canceled because of disability, but its not a guraneteed thing. You can buy Disability Insurance, but its pretty costly for a student to buy, and even for a resident. I finally purchased some my last year of residency while I was moonlighting and had the extra cash to blow...

My wife (actually fiance then) had a great job through medical school and residency and we did not have children so we held off having term LI until my last year of residency when we got married and soon thereafter were expecting a child.
 
As far as a Life Insurance policy.... Term is the only way to go;.

One of the greatest financial myths of the century. And yes, I am taking into consideration expenses, mortality, administration, and commissions. You are missing some critical tax and financial facts in making this statement, which I know you have "heard" repeatedly as conventional wisdom and which sounds logical. But have you personally done the math? If not, you may well discover this later in life when your estate lawyer recommends that you place a permanent life contract in an ILIT, (irrevocable life insurance trust,) at which time you will overpay for it due to your age, IF you can even qualify for it due to the age-related illnesses you don't yet have.

Even if the estate tax laws change, you should be buying the most flexible premium,universal, indexed life insurance you can afford on everyone you love at the youngest possible age, including your brand new babies, until the Internal Revenue Code revokes all its current benefits.

I used to believe in term also, years ago, having heard what you did, and having been sold some older universal policies which didn't perform very well, but its a different world now, and different products avaliable. Think about a 90's cell phone and one today. Similar improvements. Significant learning curve.
 
Student Loans are discharged/released if the student taking them out has a death. You parents, spouse, life partner does not need to have any concerns of having this 'debt' to repay if something were to happen to you...

Student loans are not discharged if somebody else cosigns.

As far as a Life Insurance policy.... Term is the only way to go; .

A slight exaggeration. Term is the only way to go for the 99% (household wealth not income). Most physicians are in the 99% of household wealth.
 
I would also like to add that the mortgage to rent ratio is still way above what it should be. It really should be down below 1.25 because if you look at the data, the ratio is on its way to dropping quite a bit. Thats an indication that houses are still a bit over valued. So honestly, i would stay way from it for the time being unless you have the capital to invest in class B properties (which are like apartment complexes). More foreclosures will mean a lot of people will be looking for a cheap roof over their head
 
There are no estate tax benefits to permanent life insurance until you have an estate larger than $10 Million ($5 Million if you're single). What percentage of doctors do you suppose that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not 99%.

And while buying a permanent policy might be a lot more expensive at 50 than at 20 (if for some crazy reason you wanted it), you also get the benefit of not having to pay premiums for 30 years until you're already rich. I don't supposed there'd be any value in that, nah.
 
There are no estate tax benefits to permanent life insurance until you have an estate larger than $10 Million ($5 Million if you're single). What percentage of doctors do you suppose that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not 99%.

And while buying a permanent policy might be a lot more expensive at 50 than at 20 (if for some crazy reason you wanted it), you also get the benefit of not having to pay premiums for 30 years until you're already rich. I don't supposed there'd be any value in that, nah.

With all due respect, Dr. AD, you are playing in the wrong sandbox. The younger the individual the less you know about when someone is going to die and therefore no idea what the combined exemption will be at that time, no idea what inflation will do to the numbers you are mentioning as current, and this area (estate tax specifically) is best left to the legacy lawyers who do nothing but this type of ongoing planning when an estate gets, or seems like its going to get large enough. You also are not considering marriages, inheritances, divorces, blended family wealth and windfalls, all of which can happen in multiples. So if non-estate lawyers stay away from this kind of planning, you are out on a limb here giving advice, IMO. But that is really very beside the point here anyway. Very. This is not an estate tax play. It is an income tax play.

1. You can pay Ordinary income on earnings and income, or cap gains on cap investments if long term. This is pay as you go.
2. You can defer into 401k, 403b, defined benefit, etc., deduct contributions, defer gains, and pay on the rate (speculative) you will pay in retirement. Note you are paying on a MUCH higher amount of money which has grown tax deferred, and your hope is that you are paying at a lower rate over a longer time, but today's current rate is all time pretty low to start with. And today's retirement experience is that the rate in retirement is NOT lower.
3. You can pay your current rate and invest after tax, THEN pay income and cap gains as you go, at today's returns, not really keeping up with our very small inflation. But you get to keep what is left, at least until you invest it again and again pay tax currently on it.
4. Suppose you want a lot of safety and a lot of principal protection? Cash, CDs. and perhaps annuities, fixed indexed, or variable with income guarantees. Cash gets you very very small returns, taxed currently, so almost no return after tax on income. Cds maybe a bit more, but also less liquidity for not much more return, so not worth it in the opinion of most, since spread between cash and 5 year CD not big enough, also taxed at OI currently. Fixed indexed annuities have very low caps these days, around 4% or so, so they are not good at all, though better than 5 year CD, but don't have FDIC protection, just backing of insurance Co insurer. Variable contracts with income guarantees have limited liquidity usually unless you are willing to pay higher charges for a 4 year or no year liquidity, but generally you won't get a lump sum back, just some form of withdrawals which can vary substantially. The upside is, you would pay tax on a full withdrawal in one year (bad); the downside, you can't access all the money at one time if you wanted it, so this should only be done with a PART of your portfolio that you don't mind being illiquid. The other bad thing a bout annuities is their taxation--it is LIFO, Last in First Out, so you pay tax on gains first, then later you recover capital. Ok, now here we get to the tax advantage of life insurance: IT, unlike annuities, is taxed FIFO, First in First Out, so the money you put in in earliest days (your premiums) comes out tax free to you first, and later on you pay on the gains in the policy. OR, even better, you can BORROW against the cash in the policy, in most policies, and this BORROWED money is not taxed to you, just like you are not taxed on money you borrow for taking out a mortgage.
These are relatively safe things to do with money, as they each have a significant measure of principal protection, but are each taxed differently, with the non-death benefit portion of a life insurance contract receiving the most favorable tax treatment of all. Put that together with a contract which says you are guaranteed not to earn below zero in any market year when the market index chosen makes less than zero and you have a very strong product.
5. Your Bogle answer to that is a 100% risk investment in the stock market, subject to the whims of the behavioral, political, regulatory, monetary, systemic and nonsystemic risks of the public markets, which we all saw operate so beautifully in 2008, 2000, 1987, etc, etc. You may believe that a long time frame (30 years in your scenario above is enough to make you" rich" enough to not NEED insurance). But I would suggest that captialism is a two edged sword, has to have banruptcies, disruptions, corrections, losses. There have to be two sides, a winner and a loser. The entire market can be a loser at one time. Not likely, I agree, but it has happened and will happen again, and I would argue that it is the little investor who will get hurt the most. You do NOT see the executives of Countrywide in jail, do you? And you do see millions of American homes empty and forecosed upon, and millions lost in real estate by small investors in what they thought were safe, HIGHLY RATED investments, by trusted RATING AGENCIES, and traded in real estate indexed funds. No principal protection, taxed at OI and cap gains rates, currently, If this is how you get "already rich" in your scenario above, I'd say it has some flaws in the system. You can't argue this both ways. Drs aren't rich, don't need estate tax planning, but they are "already rich" having saved all those 30 years of wasteful insurance premiums--which is it? If you are looking at your 401k, plan on looking at about half that amount after taxes and it doesn't look so "rich" anymore does it? I really do think its time to get out the spreadsheets and calculators because the financial misconceptions under which the whitecoats labor are widespread and heartfelt, but I do not believe they are evidence based. Your industrial counterparts, executives, have both pensions and 401Ks, section 79 supplemental life insurance programs, cafeteria plans, and a host of valuable fringe benefits. It is simply not possible to make those up while starting late due to prolonged education and training, and then not saving at a similar rate, which you typically don't. The executive who lives on 200k per year, while racking up benefits and retirement at 150k a year is going to come out ahead of the doctor who spends his300K per year and puts 50k a year into his 401K. Pretty simple math. Then put that in an indexed fund in the market and let it ride the ups and downs of the index and you have a recipe for mediocrity, unless you live in the middle of a 30 year bull run. Even so, its probably not going to be enough to match his or her pension and insurance benefits. It would be great if they just came with your job, but they don't so you have to get them yourself or stay well and live a long time, in which case you'd better have some longevity insurance so you don't run out of money, as you have to protect yourself against both dying too young and living too long.. You can definitely get that with a military career or gov't pension, for which you will trade current income, another method, if you will, of, forced savings, and a good one, at that.
6. Some investment alternatives: equipment leasing funds, currently paying around 7%, after tax but better if in a 401K, similar with nontraded REITs, especially now apartments since so many are seeking rental housing, both considered speculative, but backed by good quality leases of large companies if that is any comfort. Nice that they are not subject to market whims. Downside is that they have current fees to managers which are confusing, to say the least. There is at least some good research and history on many of these.
7. A lot of argument out there about what are ideal portfolios, and most trusts require some form of MPT or modern portfolio theory, or diversification over assets classes, now especially over even boutique asset classes.
8. Sovereign debt has become a global investment issue, where countries debts are inextricably tied to their banking systems when private debt, as in the US (GM, Lehman) are taken over by governments, increasing worldwide debt beyond any peacetime limits previously known. I think this is going to be a game changer, and politicans aren't ready to cram it down yet.
9. Spending exceeding GDP is worldwide problem. Answer seems to be a significant writedown of debt with some severely depressing consequences, worse than we have seen so far. Again, markets are ahead of politics here, so what will happen won't be pretty, likely.
10. Not sure that even strongest insurers can meet obligations in an unprecedented meltdown. Am currently researching reserve issues.
11. Where does the invidivual investor hedge in this case? Can you rely on the traditionall firewalss anymore given the MF Global scandal which seems to have included the custodian Morgan STanley allowing the breach of the never=before touched individual investor accounts? Can you still rely on buying hedging bullion in an ETF Gold Spider or do you have to take delivery of gold?
12. I'd suggest we are not living in simple times and investing isn't simple anymore, if it ever was. My money managers are beating the indexes and the markets, significanly up this year, after all fees. Can they keep it up? Who knows? As I see it, other than a huge risk to my principal, another big problem with index funds is when the indexes are down, right? That is NOT where I want to go.

Rental housing isn not a panacea and unless you love it as a hobby is probably not a good investment for these reasons: 1. highly illiquid for long time 2. tax writeoff early but will be "recaptured" later at ordinary income rates if not done in a correct 1031 exchange, which can be cumbersome and may not come when it is good to "buy" again 3. must buy low. 4. Sell high will result in unusually high tax because of 2, if sell high timing is all you go by 5. major hassle value when least wanted, and can't be timed, as in nice lady tenant's trucker boyfriend becomes abusive when he shows up in town, takes her money and knocks holes in your drywall, so she can't pay rent, while you have call or finals or something. (yes, this happened to us) 6. The more of these you have the more hassle you have, so passive is better, as you will be treated as passive investor, but you won't BE one, so no tax benefits but lots of trouble potential. If you love being a handyman and love bookkeeping, then maybe ok, do a duplex where you control everything from right where you are and can keep an eye on it, but go with your eyes open. 5 years is pretty minimal hold.
 
With all due respect, Dr. AD, you are playing in the wrong sandbox. .

I wrote a big long reply to this yesterday. Now I can't seem to find it. I don't care enough right now to reproduce it. Probably doesn't matter. The arguments probably don't need rebutting anyway as hardly anyone can make it through a post as long and ill-formatted as that one.
 
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