C in Gross Anatomy

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Hey y'all,

I'm a first year allopath student at a school that still uses the archaic grading system. We just finished gross anatomy, and I barely passed the shelf exam, which was a large portion of our grade. This means that I will be getting a C for the course. Now, I know that this is a "Pass" at other schools, but it just seems more serious when it's an actual letter grade.

On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being equivalent to getting a minimally passing score on Step 1), how much will this affect my overall record in the long term? I have my sights set on EM or General Surgery...

THX

 

[ChubbyChaser]

10....

 

[TexasPhysician]

I wouldn't worry at all about it. It is one class, and unless you are applying something super competitive, I wouldn't ever worry about a few C's.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

maybe kiss derm and plastic goodbye, but there are other good specialties out there...

 

[MilkmanAl]

Unless you're planning to do plastics at Harvard, you're fine. Don't even worry about it.

 

[njbmd]

Hey y'all,

I'm a first year allopath student at a school that still uses the archaic grading system. We just finished gross anatomy, and I barely passed the shelf exam, which was a large portion of our grade. This means that I will be getting a C for the course. Now, I know that this is a "Pass" at other schools, but it just seems more serious when it's an actual letter grade.

On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being equivalent to getting a minimally passing score on Step 1), how much will this affect my overall record in the long term? I have my sights set on EM or General Surgery...

THX

Get out of the "Pre-Med Syndrome". A C in Gross Anatomy will not affect your chances much to enter any specialty. First, Gross Anatomy is not well represented on USMLE Step I and second, you haven't done any clinical clerkships yet. You may find as most medical student find, that while the ides of being a surgeon seems wonderful right up until they actually have to do the rotation.

Yes, you will have a C on your record. In the long run, it's better than an F. Keep passing and wait until you have a few rotations under you belt along with your USMLE Step I score before you start worrying about how things will "affect" you in the long run. That "C" may turn out to be the least of your problems.

 

[ZagDoc]

maybe kiss derm and plastic goodbye, but there are other good specialties out there...

That's even extreme. No way a pass in your gross anatomy class closes the door to any specialties.

 

[Looking Glass]

Based on my understanding:

USMLE > 3&4th year clerkships >>>> Preclinical grades

 

[211519]

based on my understanding:

Usmle > 3&4th year clerkships >>>> preclinical grades

+1

 

[HPSPpayissues]

That's even extreme. No way a pass in your gross anatomy class closes the door to any specialties.

You would be surprised to know how many students actually get mostly A's and few B's in everything, and blow away step 1. A LOT more than you think! Definitely, there is a lot more smarter gunners out than I had thought...

 

[ZagDoc]

You would be surprised to know how many students actually get mostly A's and few B's in everything, and blow away step 1. A LOT more than you think! Definitely, there is a lot more smarter gunners out than I had thought...

Sure, that's why the competitive specialties are so... competitive. But a single grade in a first year class is not going to affect what fields you can go into at all. If that single C proves to be a trend rather than an aberration, then you have to start to temper expectations. But c'mon now.

 

[Looking Glass]

You would be surprised to know how many students actually get mostly A's and few B's in everything, and blow away step 1. A LOT more than you think! Definitely, there is a lot more smarter gunners out than I had thought...

Yeah but a lot of medical schools don't even have grades, they're just pass/fail. Even then if this guy gets a C in a few preclinical classes, as long as he rocks his boards and honors his rotations, nothing can keep him out of those specialties (and thats assuming he's actually interested in derm or ortho, which a lot of people decide not to do)

 

[gman33]

On a scale of 1 to 10, this will matter 0.

 

[DrJD]

On a scale of 1 to 10, this will matter 0.

This seems very untrue...

 

[ACGator09]

haha... i like this thread... it gives me hope

 

[ACSurgeon]

This seems very untrue...

yet it is. Step1 is the most important factor. Then third year grades. Then your interviews. Then second year grades. Then 1st year.

 

[reine1jb]

I would say it's a tendency for most people (maybe even more so with premed/preclinical medical students) to focus too much on the present and thus give it way more importance than what is really necessary.

To the OP, as a first year student, I understand you feel this way. As others have stated, we have a lot more "hoops" to jump through and I really doubt that getting a pass or a C in anatomy is going to determine what you can do with your medical degree after you graduate..

 

[DrJD]

yet it is. Step1 is the most important factor. Then third year grades. Then your interviews. Then second year grades. Then 1st year.

Right, but it still matters... If the previous statement was true, then you wouldn't have included 1st year in your list.

My point is saying it matters 0 on a scale of 1 to 10, is just wrong. No matter how unimportant the grades are, they still matter.

 

[coldweatherblue]

much more than the grades I would focus on why the shelf gave you trouble.. in-house grades don't matter too much (as long as you're passing) but you definitely want to get in a habit of rocking standardized (NBME) exams..

 

[Bones DO]

C >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> f! 🙂

 

[smq123]

Right, but it still matters... If the previous statement was true, then you wouldn't have included 1st year in your list.

My point is saying it matters 0 on a scale of 1 to 10, is just wrong. No matter how unimportant the grades are, they still matter.

You're right. It doesn't matter "0."

It matters "0.5" on a scale from 1 to 10.

Gross anatomy barely shows up on Step 1 - 3-4 questions would be considered a lot. People really look more at your clinical grades than they do at your first semester of MS1.

 

[engineeredout]

I know people who are going to end up remediating gross anatomy this summer, so be thrilled that you're not one of them.

 

[gman33]

Right, but it still matters... If the previous statement was true, then you wouldn't have included 1st year in your list.

My point is saying it matters 0 on a scale of 1 to 10, is just wrong. No matter how unimportant the grades are, they still matter.

One grade of C in a preclinical course, won't make any difference in the OP's long term plans. Would it be better if this was an A? Sure, but the amount of difference it makes is so small it wouldn't even rank on a 1 to 10 scale.

Ok, you want a number. On a scale of 1 to 1000, I'd give it a 1.

 

[DrJD]

One grade of C in a preclinical course, won't make any difference in the OP's long term plans. Would it be better if this was an A? Sure, but the amount of difference it makes is so small it wouldn't even rank on a 1 to 10 scale.

Ok, you want a number. On a scale of 1 to 1000, I'd give it a 1.

I also think it depends on the specialty... Frankly you all sound like people who got a bad grade and are trying to make themselves feel better.

If that C means he doesn't get AOA, and he wants to go into Otolaryngology where last year 50% of those who matched were AOA, then YES it could effect his career goals. If he wants to do internal medicine at his state medical center then of course it won't matter. I know he said he is looking at EM or General Surgery, but peoples minds change during third year, so you never know...

So yes, it does matter, a C anytime is not as good as an A, it is inherent in the system. Does it matter a lot? Well, that depends on his goals...
Do the best you can all the time and you won't shut any doors.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

If that C means he doesn't get AOA, and he wants to go into Otolaryngology where last year 50% of those who matched were AOA, then YES it could effect his career goals.

We don't know whether he would have AOA without the C, or conversely whether he'll still have it with the C. Meanwhile, 65% of non-AOA Otolaryngology applicants matched; most likely those include people who would be AOA but for a C in gross anatomy.

 

[DrJD]

We don't know whether he would have AOA without the C, or conversely whether he'll still have it with the C. Meanwhile, 65% of non-AOA Otolaryngology applicants matched; most likely those include people who would be AOA but for a C in gross anatomy.

And then there is the further issue of why he got a C in anatomy. Odds are he wont get all A's in everything else.

We agree that it isn't a big deal. We differ in that I think it does matter a little, and for some reason you, and a couple others, think it doesn't matter at all. Perhaps, but there are some fields, ENT is one, that puts a lot more emphasis on performance during the 1st two years.

Its like people who say it doesn't matter if you get a C in O-chem in undergrad. Are there people who get into medical school with a C in O-chem? Absolutely. Were they able to get into Harvard medical school? I'd argue not.

OP - It does matter. Not a lot, but a little. The most important thing is to analyze why you got the C so that you don't repeat the same mistakes in the many harder classes you will take in medical school. If you do that, and you have all A's, and one C, then it may not matter much.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I had a C in gross and a B in histo my first block. I've learned not to expect too many As, though I'm sure there's something about the way I study that could be improved. I understand that this might limit my options somewhat, but I don't think I have the type of mental makeup that would allow me to remain sane if I weren't satisfied with being average for a medical student.

 

[Looking Glass]

Wow 27 posts to analyze whether or not a C in a preclinical course will change the course of the OP's future. I certainly hope that we can keep things in perspective: yeah, a C isn't as good as an A or a B and it does matter somewhat in the class rankings. Will it have any long-term effect on the OP's future career path? Probably not. The USMLE and third year rotations trumps everything. I don't know the OP's situation, but if this is the only C that he has and he's getting all A's in every other class, then no, this is a blip on the radar.

On the other hand, if the OP is struggling in all his other classes and barely passing them, and not seeking out help, then it's a sign of a bigger underlying problem with the way he's studying things (if this is the case, he should probably seek tutoring or additional help before he has to remediate any other classes).

As for DrJD, I agree that this isn't a problem if it's an isolated incident. Of course, this isn't like an SMP where a C is a deal-killer. A lot of people struggle with anatomy and it's generally known to be one of those polarizing course. Bottom line, don't sweat the small stuff; deal with the bigger issue of how you are studying, and the small things will take care of themselves.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Wow.

On the other hand, if the OP is struggling in all his other classes and barely passing them, and not seeking out help, then it's a sign of a bigger underlying problem with the way he's studying things (if this is the case, he should probably seek tutoring or additional help before he has to remediate any other classes).

.

I'm assuming he/she is doing ok in the other subjects.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I am just curious because my school is Pass/Fail, is a "C" in medical school considered average like it was in Undergrad?

 

[gplex86]

Preclinical grades are one of the least important factors in residency apps, if not completely irrelevant.

As for AOA, many people who get into competitive programs are AOA, but many are not. Furthermore, fewer people with AOA go unmatched, but many still do.

But don't take my word for it:

[SIZE=-1]http://www.aamc.org/programs/cim/chartingoutcomes.pdf[/SIZE]

 

[bencasey]

...But a single grade in a first year class is not going to affect what fields you can go into at all. If that single C proves to be a trend rather than an aberration, then you have to start to temper expectations....

I hate to throw cold water on the "kumbaya" chorus that seems to be occurring, but ..... grades matter. Certainly a single "C" in a basic science course doesn't doom your career choices, but I can tell you that there are competitive programs (and not all are surgery or life-style specialties) that would view a "C" negatively, given the large number of applicants to their programs with better grades, etc. What the "C" does is put more pressure on you to do well in upcoming courses and USMLE exams.

And about "pass-fail" schools- depends on the school's reputation, but a school that only gives "pass" (without any other differentiation such as "high pass", "honors", etc.) has inadvertently magnified the importance of USMLE scores for their students as they apply for residencies.

 

[hewmanoid]

This is only your first semester in med school, and I highly doubt a C in gross anatomy will matter much in the long run, assuming you're doing well in other courses. But, you need to think about why you got a C in gross in the first place. The reason could be you didn't study hard enough for the class or your study strategy didn't work for you...etc Whatever the case may be, if you let the problem go unsolved, it will affect your future class performances one away or another. So, you might want to think about that now.

Also, people say pre-clinical grades mean nothing for a residency match, and there is definitely some truth in that. But, my philosophy is you don't want to give your residency program director any reason to reject you. So, doing well in pre-clinical classes will certainly do you no harm later on. But, at the same time, you don't have to be a perfectionist to get into the specialty of your choice.

 

[MossPoh]

Program directors and others aren't idiots. They are very aware that anatomy is very likely the first medical school course you ever took. Perfection isn't expected and a C is not the kiss of death. A trend of lots of Cs may correlate with lower step 1 scores, but it depends on the reason you got the C. I've lost out on a few grades because of arbitrary mark downs that I can only explain as extremely undergrad like.

Most programs don't want a robot. They want a strong and personable applicant. Just work on doing better in the future.

 

[DrJD]

I have talked to two different chiefs of departments here at my school this week and they both gave the same answer when asked, "What can I do to make myself a competitive applicant?"

They said, "Make sure you get great grades, and get some research in."

The only place I've ever heard that grades don't matter (the first two years) is here on SDN.

Somebody in another thread gave the advice to go talk to chiefs at your own school. I will majorly second that advice. If you are truly worried, go talk to someone at your school, they will give way better advice than this thread. Plus, you will have the added benefit of making a connection to someone at your school.

 

[engineeredout]

I think the people are weird who say "I'm not shooting for an A, I'm happy with a B".

Personally I don't know where the **** the line is between studying for an A and studying for a B/C. I study as hard as I think I can, and sometimes that results in As and sometimes Bs. Don't know how I would "intentionally" get a B.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I think the people are weird who say "I'm not shooting for an A, I'm happy with a B".

Personally I don't know where the **** the line is between studying for an A and studying for a B/C. I study as hard as I think I can, and sometimes that results in As and sometimes Bs. Don't know how I would "intentionally" get a B.

I think you can shoot for an A but be happy when you get a B.
I dont think anyone sets out to study just enough to make a B or C. people just say stuff like that so they're not devastated when they get the first ever C in their life

 

[MilkmanAl]

I dont think anyone sets out to study just enough to make a B or C.

I do.

 

[samtheman]

I do.

Succinct, yet effective. Good old milkman...

 

[fever106]

To the OP: I would not lose one minute of sleep over this. I am at a school that does the H, HP, P, F system which is kinda similar to grades. Only difference is that you can get only a P with a percentage grade higher than 80% if the curve is high...but the principle is similar. I got mostly Ps first year, mostly Hs for second and third year, and high step 1. First year material is much less important on the step 1 exam, I think I had one anatomy question. I just finished interviewing at some of the most competitive IM programs in California, and I got nothing but excellent feedback. Nobody ever even mentioned my first year Ps...they don't care. Every single interviewer did commend me on my step 1 score, however. How well you do in the match is dependent on your whole file, not a single class. The only "single score" that could bump you out of the running for a program is the step 1. Period! Try to do well in the rest of your basic science courses, do well on step 1, and kick butt during your clinical years, and you will be golden.

To DrJD: I disagree with you here. I have been through the process of applying and interviewing in a very competitive geographical region (coming from a lower ranked med school), and my average grades first year have done me no harm. And to assume that the OP will not be able to get As from here on out is presumptuous. I hated anatomy, struggled really hard, and that didn't mean I wasn't capable of doing well at other things. The truth is, most schools are Pass/Fail at least during the first two years, there is a ton a variability regarding grading criteria and how people are scored/ranked, etc. Even AOA varies significantly across many institutions. Some places base AOA purely on grades, some incorporated step scores, some even look at things like leadership and community service! The only objective, constant basis for comparison is the USMLE step 1. If the OP kicks butt on that test, does well on clinical rotations, and scores some good LORs, nobody will give a crap about a C in anatomy.

 

[bencasey]

....I have been through the process of applying and interviewing in a very competitive geographical region (coming from a lower ranked med school), and my average grades first year have done me no harm.

....If the OP kicks butt on that test, does well on clinical rotations, and scores some good LORs, nobody will give a crap about a C in anatomy.

Based on my calendar, match day hasn't occurred yet. So all you really know is where you have been invited to interview. Get back in touch with the group after match day to update us on whether your "average grades" in the first year did you no harm.

And I can tell you that it is easy for programs to group applicants but difficult to rank them in a linear fashion, which is what is done for the match. So if there are two applicants with very similar applications and interviews, that "C" in a basic science course just might be the differentiating factor at a competitive program. Will it matter if a student is one slot lower on the rank list? Probably not. But someone will usually end up as the student who fell just below the last person who successfully matched. "Almost matching" at a program isn't a great consolation.

 

[DrJD]

To the OP: I would not lose one minute of sleep over this. I am at a school that does the H, HP, P, F system which is kinda similar to grades. Only difference is that you can get only a P with a percentage grade higher than 80% if the curve is high...but the principle is similar. I got mostly Ps first year, mostly Hs for second and third year, and high step 1. First year material is much less important on the step 1 exam, I think I had one anatomy question. I just finished interviewing at some of the most competitive IM programs in California, and I got nothing but excellent feedback. Nobody ever even mentioned my first year Ps...they don't care. Every single interviewer did commend me on my step 1 score, however. How well you do in the match is dependent on your whole file, not a single class. The only "single score" that could bump you out of the running for a program is the step 1. Period! Try to do well in the rest of your basic science courses, do well on step 1, and kick butt during your clinical years, and you will be golden.

To DrJD: I disagree with you here. I have been through the process of applying and interviewing in a very competitive geographical region (coming from a lower ranked med school), and my average grades first year have done me no harm. And to assume that the OP will not be able to get As from here on out is presumptuous. I hated anatomy, struggled really hard, and that didn't mean I wasn't capable of doing well at other things. The truth is, most schools are Pass/Fail at least during the first two years, there is a ton a variability regarding grading criteria and how people are scored/ranked, etc. Even AOA varies significantly across many institutions. Some places base AOA purely on grades, some incorporated step scores, some even look at things like leadership and community service! The only objective, constant basis for comparison is the USMLE step 1. If the OP kicks butt on that test, does well on clinical rotations, and scores some good LORs, nobody will give a crap about a C in anatomy.

Agreed, but that is a major IF... And I'm pretty sure that is exactly what I said, IE, as long as it isn't a pattern probably wouldn't be a big deal. Also, a string of passes looks a lot different than a string of C's... At the few medical schools I'm aware of, a P is more equivalent to a B. I talked with a radiology resident yesterday, and I was asking about how it was to match. He said he didn't do as well first year, especially in Anatomy. He said it came up at about half his interviews. Anecdotal, but an example anyway...

Also, you are right about the AOA being different. For example, at my school the C would mean no AOA. There will be more people with a 4.0 than can be elected to AOA, at other schools that may not be the case. Thus my advice, that if the OP is interested in EM, and he is worried, he should go talk to the residency director at his home institution. OR, just do really well from here on out and it won't be a big deal. But, that may require some reflection to make sure that the C was a fluke rather than the beginning of a pattern.

For example: http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

According to the survery, 66% of program directors considered class rank/quartile. 63% consider consistency of grades. 49% consider honors in basic sciences.

So does every program care about your grades? Not according to the survey, but around 50% care enough to consider it when deciding who to interview. And while basic science grades may not matter as much, they play a big role in class rank, which everyone agrees is important.

 

[DrJD]

Based on my calendar, match day hasn't occurred yet. So all you really know is where you have been invited to interview. Get back in touch with the group after match day to update us on whether your "average grades" in the first year did you no harm.

And I can tell you that it is easy for programs to group applicants but difficult to rank them in a linear fashion, which is what is done for the match. So if there are two applicants with very similar applications and interviews, that "C" in a basic science course just might be the differentiating factor at a competitive program. Will it matter if a student is one slot lower on the rank list? Probably not. But someone will usually end up as the student who fell just below the last person who successfully matched. "Almost matching" at a program isn't a great consolation.

👍

 

[ruralmd]

And I can tell you that it is easy for programs to group applicants but difficult to rank them in a linear fashion, which is what is done for the match. So if there are two applicants with very similar applications and interviews, that "C" in a basic science course just might be the differentiating factor at a competitive program. Will it matter if a student is one slot lower on the rank list? Probably not. But someone will usually end up as the student who fell just below the last person who successfully matched. "Almost matching" at a program isn't a great consolation.

Because every school uses the ABCDF system 🙄

 

[ACSurgeon]

Based on my calendar, match day hasn't occurred yet. So all you really know is where you have been invited to interview. Get back in touch with the group after match day to update us on whether your "average grades" in the first year did you no harm.

I really doubt you're a resident as your status would have us believe. It also seems to me that you created an account just to respond to this post and support "DrJD.".... interesting. Fever106 was sharing his experience and getting invited to interviews is an indication of not being harmed by his average grades, and that's what he meant. Also, if you were a resident as you claim (and I really couldn't care less if you were), you would know that someone with mostly H's in 3rd year and 2nd year AND a solid step 1 will NOT be harmed by average 1st year grades.

And I can tell you that it is easy for programs to group applicants but difficult to rank them in a linear fashion, which is what is done for the match. So if there are two applicants with very similar applications and interviews, that "C" in a basic science course just might be the differentiating factor at a competitive program

While this is THEORETICALLY true, I find it VERY hard to believe that two applicants can be that similar in the eyes of a residency program leaving them with nothing better than a 1st year class to differentiate their rank. It's actually laughable. And yes, "resident," I'll come back in March of 2011 to tell you whether or not my theories were true

 

[bencasey]

While this is THEORETICALLY true, I find it VERY hard to believe that two applicants can be that similar in the eyes of a residency program leaving them with nothing better than a 1st year class to differentiate their rank. It's actually laughable. And yes, "resident," I'll come back in March of 2011 to tell you whether or not my theories were true

Laugh away, "medical student". For competitive programs with a high number of applicants and few spots, little things might matter. Like a below-average grade in a basic science course. Being dropped down a couple of spots on a program's rank list might make the difference in matching at that top-shelf program or not.
Good luck in March.

 

[rahulb]

ok "PGY1" 🙄

 

[ar2388]

ok.. what if you have 2 identical applicants but one has a C in anatomy and one has a P in anatomy bc he went to a school with pass/fail..

 

[bencasey]

ok.. what if you have 2 identical applicants but one has a C in anatomy and one has a P in anatomy bc he went to a school with pass/fail..

Good question. My bet is that the "P" would win out, if it is a strictly P/F med school (and not "P, HP, P with distinction, really high P, almost honors P, honors"- that sort of system is about the same as ABCDF). If the C student's school gives out information about what an anatomy grade of C means at that school (is it average, below average, how many students got a C in that course), that might put the C grade in a better light (if it is a truly average grade for that course at that school). The Step 1 scores would be looked at more closely. In most med schools a C grade is below average even in a basic science course. In PhD programs, a grade of C isn't a passing grade. And a C on a clinical rotation or sub-I is almost unheard of. You can't tell if the "P" student's actual performance was worse than that of the C student, but you know that the C student is below average. The P student may or may not be.... So I would bet on the "P" over the "C" if the Step 1 scores (and everything else) were equal.

 

[ar2388]

Good question. My bet is that the "P" would win out, if it is a strictly P/F med school (and not "P, HP, P with distinction, really high P, almost honors P, honors"- that sort of system is about the same as ABCDF). If the C student's school gives out information about what an anatomy grade of C means at that school (is it average, below average, how many students got a C in that course), that might put the C grade in a better light (if it is a truly average grade for that course at that school). The Step 1 scores would be looked at more closely. In most med schools a C grade is below average even in a basic science course. In PhD programs, a grade of C isn't a passing grade. And a C on a clinical rotation or sub-I is almost unheard of. You can't tell if the "P" student's actual performance was worse than that of the C student, but you know that the C student is below average. The P student may or may not be.... So I would bet on the "P" over the "C" if the Step 1 scores (and everything else) were equal.

i love p/f.... i am def below average or close to average in the exams for now (i think im still figuring out how to study)...