C in Gross Anatomy

[twilightdoc]

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i love p/f.... i am def below average or close to average in the exams for now (i think im still figuring out how to study)...

I have been following this thread with some interest. A grade of C in anatomy isn't the end of the world for a student, unless it is accompanied by an excess of other below-average preclinical grades. The transition from undergraduate school to medical school can be difficult for some very smart people, and figuring out how and how much to study can take a semester or two. The volume of material that is covered is daunting, and nobody can know everything.

And I "love p/f" as well. Most of my student contact is in the third year in a letter-graded curriculum, and it is very difficult to differentiate between an A- and a B+ student. I think that I can spot an "honors" student or a student in need of remediation in a clinical setting, but differentiating among the other very good students is not easily done. Grading in the clinical year is so subjective and arbitrary that P/F seems more legitimate, if there are standards set for "pass". The move toward skills-based and competency-based standards may help in this process.

 

[ar2388]

for us, pass means getting at least 70% on exams, practicals, etc

 

[45408]

ok.. what if you have 2 identical applicants but one has a C in anatomy and one has a P in anatomy bc he went to a school with pass/fail..

really?

 

[45408]

I have talked to two different chiefs of departments here at my school this week and they both gave the same answer when asked, "What can I do to make myself a competitive applicant?"

They said, "Make sure you get great grades, and get some research in."

The only place I've ever heard that grades don't matter (the first two years) is here on SDN.

M3 >> M2/M1

It's not even arguable. Every PD has reaffirmed that.

 

[bencasey]

M3 >> M2/M1

It's not even arguable. Every PD has reaffirmed that.

Hark! Is that another chorus of "Kumbaya" I hear?
The only groups of people who think that basic science grades never matter are (1) med students with poor basic science grades; (2) program directors of weak programs or in uncompetitive specialties; and (3) administrators who are trying to de-stress their underperforming med students.

I doubt if you have contacted "every PD".

In a specialty with competitive residency applicants, any "negative" on an application could make a difference in getting an interview or in how that person gets ranked. Yes, if you had a "C" in anatomy but then had otherwise excellent grades and managed to blow the top off of Step 1 and Step 2, you will probably be forgiven. But grades matter. Or at least they might.

 

[C8H11NO2]

Bencasey, thanks for your posts. While the bulk of your logic certainly makes sense, is this reasoning based on information gathered from interactions with program directors, or is it inferred based on your personal experiences in the match process? If it is the latter, then if I may, what is your specialty?

I do not doubt that preclinical grades, in general, do matter. They must matter to some extent. But because the variability of preclinical courses at LCME schools in terms of quality and structure is quite high, and because the “worth” of these courses (in terms of their contribution to your class rank) is different at each school, it would also make sense that programs – even the very competitive ones – would look at Step 1 scores and third year grades (but more importantly, third year EVALS) – to formulate their rank lists. I do not doubt that in very competitive programs, there may often be applicant “ties” during the decision making process. However, in such cases, wouldn’t PDs tend to regard things like the applicant’s interview performance and research accomplishments (in that specialty), as less subjective and far more relevant factors for making their final decisions?

According to the NRMP statistics, preclinical grades seem to be near the bottom of the list in terms of importance for virtually every specialty. While “class rank” tends to be of higher performance, the “class rank equation” differs widely across schools. I am sure that there are medical students out there that have had a few mediocre grades here and there but graduated at around the 50th percentile of their class.

There are plenty of medical students (myself included) that have a good idea about what specialty they’d like to pursue, or have at least narrowed it down, even as seemingly naïve first years. I have physicians in my family, including a general surgeon and an EM doc, and I believe that both would be a good fit for me. I do not think that I would enjoy academic medicine and would likely look towards community programs for residency. Such programs are only moderately competitive. Had I been the derm “type”, I probably would not have been in a position to create this thread in the first place.

Lastly, there is no “kumbaya”. Clearly getting an A is a lot better than a C. There is no reason to celebrate, but considering I did well in my other classes and PASSED everything, I am not going to lament over it either.

 

[hewmanoid]

Bencasey, thanks for your posts. While the bulk of your logic certainly makes sense, is this reasoning based on information gathered from interactions with program directors, or is it inferred based on your personal experiences in the match process? If it is the latter, then if I may, what is your specialty?

I do not doubt that preclinical grades, in general, do matter. They must matter to some extent. But because the variability of preclinical courses at LCME schools in terms of quality and structure is quite high, and because the “worth” of these courses (in terms of their contribution to your class rank) is different at each school, it would also make sense that programs – even the very competitive ones – would look at Step 1 scores and third year grades (but more importantly, third year EVALS) – to formulate their rank lists. I do not doubt that in very competitive programs, there may often be applicant “ties” during the decision making process. However, in such cases, wouldn’t PDs tend to regard things like the applicant’s interview performance and research accomplishments (in that specialty), as less subjective and far more relevant factors for making their final decisions?

According to the NRMP statistics, preclinical grades seem to be near the bottom of the list in terms of importance for virtually every specialty. While “class rank” tends to be of higher performance, the “class rank equation” differs widely across schools. I am sure that there are medical students out there that have had a few mediocre grades here and there but graduated at around the 50th percentile of their class.

There are plenty of medical students (myself included) that have a good idea about what specialty they’d like to pursue, or have at least narrowed it down, even as seemingly naïve first years. I have physicians in my family, including a general surgeon and an EM doc, and I believe that both would be a good fit for me. I do not think that I would enjoy academic medicine and would likely look towards community programs for residency. Such programs are only moderately competitive. Had I been the derm “type”, I probably would not have been in a position to create this thread in the first place.

Lastly, there is no “kumbaya”. Clearly getting an A is a lot better than a C. There is no reason to celebrate, but considering I did well in my other classes and PASSED everything, I am not going to lament over it either.

Ideally, one's future choice of specialty shouldn't determine how hardworking he/she is in med school. Personally I wouldn't want to be happy with barely passing all my classes just because I plan to go into family medicine. I would rock all the classes and Step I and still want to do FM because it truly interests me.

Anyways, you might want to think about what went wrong in gross anatomy (The difference between an "A" and a "C" is not really negligible.) so that you'll learn the lesson and improve yourself. Good luck!

 

[MilkmanAl]

Ideally, one's future choice of specialty shouldn't determine how hardworking he/she is in med school. Personally I wouldn't want to be happy with barely passing all my classes just because I plan to go into family medicine. I would rock all the classes and Step I and still want to do FM because it truly interests me.

That seems to be a fairly common opinion, so I must be on a totally different planet than most med students. To me, working for A's in the pre-clinical years and crazy board scores sounds like an outrageous waste of time if you're set on primary care. Working only as hard as you need to for the results you want doesn't seem to be a concept that's terribly popular in this line of work.

 

[fever106]

Bencasey: While it is true I have not matched yet, I did get interview invites to every single program I applied to, including a couple that are considered the most competitive in their respective geographical regions (NY and So Cal). My point is, clinical grades and step 1 scores are infinitely more important than MS 1 grades. That is an undisputed fact. Not just med students with poor grades and PDs at crummy programs confirm this fact. Everybody agrees on this. And furthermore, no two applicants are identical with the exception of one or two preclinical grades. Yes, there are many very competitive applicants with impressive numbers, research, etc. BUT, people all have different personalities, and different things to bring to the table. It is also well established that if two applicants have similar numbers, but one has a few more As or Honors in the basic science years, but the other has absolutely glowing LORs that are highly personalized and come from important people, the latter will prevail at many programs. Every applicant is a complete package, not just a piece of paper with a half dozen grades. You must perform well to match well, no doubt. But you must also be a good person who is dedicated and passionate about their field. If you can pull a solid overall performance, with a sparkling step 1 score, it will come down to your clinical evaluations (what kind of doctor you are!), not whether you aced one or two classes in your first year.

 

[45408]

Hark! Is that another chorus of "Kumbaya" I hear?
The only groups of people who think that basic science grades never matter are (1) med students with poor basic science grades; (2) program directors of weak programs or in uncompetitive specialties; and (3) administrators who are trying to de-stress their underperforming med students.

Did I say that they never matter? No. The rest of your post is irrelevant, since that's not what I said anyways.

 

[sops]

i love p/f.... i am def below average or close to average in the exams for now (i think im still figuring out how to study)...

plz get gray student 2010 second ed. and read it very carefully

 

[twilightdoc]

Ideally, one's future choice of specialty shouldn't determine how hardworking he/she is in med school. Personally I wouldn't want to be happy with barely passing all my classes just because I plan to go into family medicine. I would rock all the classes and Step I and still want to do FM because it truly interests me.

I applaud your attitude about working hard and learning as much as you can to be a great doctor. I am in academic medicine but not in Family Medicine, and the idea that primary care, and particularly Family Medicine, is left to those who aren't at the top of the class is sad. If it is done well, Family Medicine is one of the most intellectually and personally challenging areas of medicine. It requires both great breadth and reasonable depth of knowledge and excellent diagnostic and interpersonal skills.

 

[ar2388]

plz get gray student 2010 second ed. and read it very carefully

im not sure i need another textbook.. is it much better than moore's clinically oriented anatomy?
is the grays anatomy review good? or is there a better anatomy review book?

thanks!

 

[abmd]

im not sure i need another textbook.. is it much better than moore's clinically oriented anatomy?
is the grays anatomy review good? or is there a better anatomy review book?

thanks!

don't get grays if you have moores. get brs anatomy, i didn't use it personally but everyone at my school says that is the one to use

 

[OpalOnyx]

Do the best you can all the time and you won't shut any doors.

👍

 

[hikikomori]

The only thing that first two year grades would do is your motivation to study/confidence. If you can brush off this feeling, you'll be fine. First two years are important only to learn materials for Step 1. For residency? Meh, they're not. Just rock Step 1. Really, if you get a 260 (let's say), would plastic or ortho or derm stop you? Heck, they'd probably beg you to join them.

If you want to do well in Anatomy, go to the gross lab often and look at the structures in as many different cadavers as you can.

 

[mke520]

somehow found this thread and starting reading...so my question to the OP...did the C really matter??

 

[Robotman]

somehow found this thread and starting reading...so my question to the OP...did the C really matter??

A "C" in Anatomy 5 years ago; this guy probably works as a Walmart greeter now.

 

[Kahreek]

if someone necrobumps any thread of mine in 5 years time, I want someone from here to phone me up, and will log in to answer.