C=md???

[Dr Who]

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I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD? Is it a formula for mediocre doctors or is it valid? It should be noted that all of us worked hard just to get into medical school.
Some of us study our a**es off and still get by with B's and C's. I imagine all med schools have their gunners, who will nat be satisfied with anything lower than an A, but most of us study just to survive the first two years.
In your opinion, is there any shame in the C=MD philosophy?

 

[Blake]

I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD? Is it a formula for mediocre doctors or is it valid? It should be noted that all of us worked hard just to get into medical school.
Some of us study our a**es off and still get by with B's and C's. I imagine all med schools have their gunners, who will nat be satisfied with anything lower than an A, but most of us study just to survive the first two years.
In your opinion, is there any shame in the C=MD philosophy?

I keep hearing that pre-clinical grades don't mean much in terms of competence in the future. I don't really believe it, and I'll have to see it for myself before listening to some upper classmen who keep telling us to not worry about it. I wouldn't have any problems with a doc who had C's during med school, as long as he's competent, but I just can't see how I can become competent while getting Cs. I guess I'm the only one who understood it, right ? 😕

 

[velo]

I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD? Is it a formula for mediocre doctors or is it valid? It should be noted that all of us worked hard just to get into medical school.
Some of us study our a**es off and still get by with B's and C's. I imagine all med schools have their gunners, who will nat be satisfied with anything lower than an A, but most of us study just to survive the first two years.
In your opinion, is there any shame in the C=MD philosophy?

If you're working hard for your P (or C) then no there's no shame in the philosophy and I don't think its a shame or a formula for mediocrity. If, however, you have the ability to scrape by without really working that hard and you use P=MD as an excuse to slack-off (I've yet to meet anyone here who's an actual slacker yet...unless they hide it real well) then its a big problem.

So, "Christ this is hard, I've been studying forever and I'm still not sure how i'm going to do on the test...oh well, at least P=MD" --no problem

vs.

"Eh, I don't really need to study this, i'm sure i can at least pass, and P=MD" --dangerous attitude.


my $0.02

 

[Dr Who]

If you're working hard for your P (or C) then no there's no shame in the philosophy and I don't think its a shame or a formula for mediocrity. If, however, you have the ability to scrape by without really working that hard and you use P=MD as an excuse to slack-off (I've yet to meet anyone here who's an actual slacker yet...unless they hide it real well) then its a big problem.

So, "Christ this is hard, I've been studying forever and I'm still not sure how i'm going to do on the test...oh well, at least P=MD" --no problem

vs.

"Eh, I don't really need to study this, i'm sure i can at least pass, and P=MD" --dangerous attitude.


my $0.02

While slackers are everywhere, I doubt there are many of them in med school. Getting into med school in the first place is hard enough that I doubt many slackers get through.
I was just accepted into med school for the fall term. My med school in particular still hangs on to the old alphabet grades (A,B,C,F), so in my case it is C=MD. So my question is do my grades during MS1 and MS2 affect my chances for getting into a good residency or are my MS3 and MS4 grades more important? I dont consider myself a slacker at all, but neither do I consider myself a gunner by any means.

 

[Blake]

While slackers are everywhere, I doubt there are many of them in med school. Getting into med school in the first place is hard enough that I doubt many slackers get through.
I was just accepted into med school for the fall term. My med school in particular still hangs on to the old alphabet grades (A,B,C,F), so in my case it is C=MD. So my question is do my grades during MS1 and MS2 affect my chances for getting into a good residency or are my MS3 and MS4 grades more important? I dont consider myself a slacker at all, but neither do I consider myself a gunner by any means.

The term gunner is way overrated and overused. In my class, I haven't met anybody who does everything to make sure the rest of the class fails so he can be the only one to have good grades. You'll have some classmates who study a ridiculous amount of time in order to have great grades (me included), and they're not bad people at all. Anyway, your MS3-4 grades are more important, but to get into the really competitive residencies, having excellent pre-clinical grades does matter. Remember, the competition can be fierce for some residency spots, so why not give it all you've got ?

 

[HrsNJ]

Remember, the competition can be fierce for some residency spots, so why not give it all you've got ?

I like this attitude. 👍

That being said, I've been talking with some upperclassmen and they're saying that the only times grades in your first and second year of med school matter are when you've either had High Honors (or As, whatever) in all of them or when you fail one or more of them. Other than that, it's your board score and the comments you get from your clerkships and the actual grade from whichever rotation you'll be applying for a residency in that make a difference.

 

[DunkinDOnut]

We were told in med psych that students who make A's end up in academia or research, B's end up the best physicians, and C's make the most money. Who knows? If you happen to pass, then that is an impressive acclomplishment and shouldn't be disregarded. Sure, some people could try harder, but I don't think it should be a judgement upon their character or an indication of their abilities to be a competent physician. In fact, I've noticed that most of the "gunners" who strive for high grades seem to have personality disorders. I'm glad I'm not one of those weirdos.

Dunk

 

[MD'05]

I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD?

It means crappy residency in crappy town. Work hard and shoot for the stars. If you only make the mean, better than the bottom.

 

[dsblaha]

If you are going to do something you should do the best you can.

I agree with velocypedalist's take

 

[omarsaleh66]

Md = Std

 

[DrOctopus]

Hasn't anyone heard the old addage:

Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance? 😀

 

[fang]

I cringe when I hear "P=MD", because it seems like most the people who say that figure they're entitled to be a doctor now that they're in medical school, so they should put as little effort into it as possible. If you study your ass off and get a C, then at least you have a good work ethic. I'd rather have a doctor who works hard and doesn't memorize as efficiently than a doctor who is great at memorizing but is intellectually lazy.

 

[Dr Who]

I cringe when I hear "P=MD", because it seems like most the people who say that figure they're entitled to be a doctor now that they're in medical school, so they should put as little effort into it as possible. If you study your ass off and get a C, then at least you have a good work ethic. I'd rather have a doctor who works hard and doesn't memorize as efficiently than a doctor who is great at memorizing but is intellectually lazy.

C=MD to me has nothing to do with not having any work ethics. Its a fact that some of us are just better at memorizing small details than others...
Who's to say that the med student that has a C average in med school will be a better physician than the "Gunner" straight A student?
I think that the clinical years (ms3 & ms4) have MUCH more relevance on what kind of physician we are to become than the basic science years (ms1 & ms2). I guess thats why residencies place MUCH more importance on those years than the first two.

 

[Dr.Evil1]

1. There are slackers in medical school....you should meet my roomate.

2. I agree that we should all do as much as we can to learn the material and consequently get good grades (hopefully the two go hand and hand...but not always). If you think about it we have an ethical obligation to our patients to learn as much as we can so we are the best clinicians possible. That being said the ultimate goal is to be the best clinicians possible, NOT the ones with the highest grades. I think that the whole expression P=MD is there to remind us that there is more to becoming a good clinician than studying. What good are you to your patients if you are walking around clinically depressed due to test anxiety? Is memorizing the minutia necessary to score well preclinically/on the boards pertinant to patient care? The USMLE tests were designed as a pass/fail test, not as a method of quantifying applicants for residency programs.

3. Velocypedalist said it right but lets not confuse the "lazy" guy with someone who would rather be a complete person, not just a walking encyclopedia.

 

[Dr Who]

The USMLE tests were designed as a pass/fail test, not as a method of quantifying applicants for residency programs.

I didnt know that. I thought that the higher you score on the USMLE step 1, the bestter chance you have at getting into a good residency. Well that and your ms3/4 grades and LOR's.

 

[automaton]

boards were originally meant to be pass fail, but it's pretty much always been used to rank applicants.

4th year grades don't really mean much.

everyone has told me that 1st/2nd year grades only matter if you get AOA or all honors, or if you fail. however it's important not to slack off too much in your second year because all that crap is gonna be useful for step1. first year though, feel free to blow off. what a waste of time that was.

like velo said, if you work hard and you get pass, no big deal. if you slack off because you figure you can still miss X number of questions or blow off a few lectures and still pass, that can come bite you in the ass. you'd be surprised how many people fail by 1 point, or tenths of a percent. it always ends up being really close so don't risk it.

also, like dunkindonut said, a lot of people take this competition stuff way too seriously and it really screws with their head. that's not to say if you're getting honors you're more likely to have mental issues - it's really about your attitude and how you adjust. there are bottom feeders with mental issues too.

last thing - failures at the level of medical school are usually due to lack of effort than lack of intelligence. having a good attitude goes a long way.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

Who's to say that the med student that has a C average in med school will be a better physician than the "Gunner" straight A student?

I'd hazard a guess that the A student would be a better pathologist than the C student.

 

[jennie 21]

I didnt know that. I thought that the higher you score on the USMLE step 1, the bestter chance you have at getting into a good residency. Well that and your ms3/4 grades and LOR's.

Well, it IS true that if you score well on the USMLE step 1 you have a better chance of getting into a good residency. But the USMLE was designed as a competency exam for the purpose of licensing physicians, not as an aptitude exam like the MCAT or SAT. According to what we were told as second-years, it wasn't until recently (the last 10 years or so) that USMLE scores were used heavily to evaluate residency candidates. That's really not the purpose of the test or what it's designed to measure, but it's how it's being used now. It was designed to ensure that all licensed physicians had to meet a certain minimal standard of competency to be licensed. That was the original intent. The emphasis on board scores for residency developed much later.

 

[thackl]

Well, it IS true that if you score well on the USMLE step 1 you have a better chance of getting into a good residency. But the USMLE was designed as a competency exam for the purpose of licensing physicians, not as an aptitude exam like the MCAT or SAT. According to what we were told as second-years, it wasn't until recently (the last 10 years or so) that USMLE scores were used heavily to evaluate residency candidates. That's really not the purpose of the test or what it's designed to measure, but it's how it's being used now. It was designed to ensure that all licensed physicians had to meet a certain minimal standard of competency to be licensed. That was the original intent. The emphasis on board scores for residency developed much later.

This is entirely true. Step1 in very misused. Plus, I was told there is no correlation b/t step1 and resident performance....... step2 is another story

 

[fang]

Who's to say that the med student that has a C average in med school will be a better physician than the "Gunner" straight A student?

That's what I'm saying... except I think it's the C student with a lot of motivation to learn who will probably do well 3rd year and beyond, not the people who (whatever their grades might be) just scrape through all the tests with the minimum amount of work possible. If you're saying "C=MD" after a test where you've worked hard and happened to get a C, fine. If you're saying it the week before the test to justify flying to Florida and skipping 2 days of class (true story), there's something wrong with that.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD? Is it a formula for mediocre doctors or is it valid? It should be noted that all of us worked hard just to get into medical school.
Some of us study our a**es off and still get by with B's and C's. I imagine all med schools have their gunners, who will nat be satisfied with anything lower than an A, but most of us study just to survive the first two years.
In your opinion, is there any shame in the C=MD philosophy?

Actually, I think a big part of the point of the P=MD philosophy is self-esteem for med students. Although there are some students who don't work hard, the bulk do work pretty hard for exams. Given that most students came in with an A- or so undergrad gpa (depending on the school), statistics tells us that a decent number of previously dominant students will find themselves at the B- or C part of the curve, which can be highly demoralizing. The P=MD statement is meant to be remoralizing for the poor MD students who find themselves below the mean in their courses (half the class, unfortunately)

 

[8744]

It means crappy residency in crappy town. Work hard and shoot for the stars. If you only make the mean, better than the bottom.

I don't know, man. I have crappy grades and a low class rank (96 out of 103) but I have interviewed for Emergency Medicine at, among other places, Baton Rouge, El Paso, Temple (Texas), West Viginia, Little Rock, and Omaha.

These are hardly crappy towns. Some of them are quite large and cosmopolitan. (El Paso, Omaha, etc.) And Emergency Medicine is not a crappy residency wherever you go. I bet you get more experience and better training in the nuts and bolts of Emergency Medicine in Baton Rouge (HIV Capitol of the United States) than you would in Boston.

If I don't match I'll be back to this thread to eat crow but since I have been on eight interviews they tell me that I have the critical mass to guarantee a match somewhere, even if at the bottom of my list. (I will rank Baton Rouge number one because I really, really liked their program.)

Now, it is true that I applied to 24 programs and was rejected by most of them. Like John Kerry, I was completely skunked in North Carolina and Florida. But I confess that I don't understand what makes one program better than another (other than the few super-prestigious programs like Baltimore Shock-Trauma) and I think it really comes down, for most people, to geography and benefits. I can't afford to live in Boston, I don't want to live in Boston anyways, so the fact that I would have been rejected by Harvard bothers me not at all.

But, with that being said, grades are important. I probably would have gotten fifteen interview offers if I was in the middle of the class. (My Step scores were decent but not spectacular)

 

[Elysium]

I don't know, man. I have crappy grades and a low class rank (96 out of 103) but I have interviewed for Emergency Medicine at, among other places, Baton Rouge, El Paso, Temple (Texas), West Viginia, Little Rock, and Omaha.

These are hardly crappy towns. Some of them are quite large and cosmopolitan. (El Paso, Omaha, etc.) And Emergency Medicine is not a crappy residency wherever you go. I bet you get more experience and better training in the nuts and bolts of Emergency Medicine in Baton Rouge (HIV Capitol of the United States) than you would in Boston.

If I don't match I'll be back to this thread to eat crow but since I have been on eight interviews they tell me that I have the critical mass to guarantee a match somewhere, even if at the bottom of my list. (I will rank Baton Rouge number one because I really, really liked their program.)

Now, it is true that I applied to 24 programs and was rejected by most of them. Like John Kerry, I was completely skunked in North Carolina and Florida. But I confess that I don't understand what makes one program better than another (other than the few super-prestigious programs like Baltimore Shock-Trauma) and I think it really comes down, for most people, to geography and benefits. I can't afford to live in Boston, I don't want to live in Boston anyways, so the fact that I would have been rejected by Harvard bothers me not at all.

But, with that being said, grades are important. I probably would have gotten fifteen interview offers if I was in the middle of the class. (My Step scores were decent but not spectacular)

Ya know, PandaBear, I always thought your attitude and humility was cool. I just wanted to tell you that. I totally think you have the right attitude towards med school and I respect that. Good luck with the match. I'm sure you'll do just fine.

😀

 

[MD'05]

I don't know, man. I have crappy grades and a low class rank (96 out of 103) but I have interviewed for Emergency Medicine at, among other places, Baton Rouge, El Paso, Temple (Texas), West Viginia, Little Rock, and Omaha.

<snip>

But, with that being said, grades are important. I probably would have gotten fifteen interview offers if I was in the middle of the class. (My Step scores were decent but not spectacular)

Congratulations on your interviews! EM is different. There are no spectacularly crappy programs if you truly love EM. Also, you in particular must have other things going for you besides class rank.

My point is to work as hard as you can and DO NOT SETTLE for mediocrity. Settling for mediocrity (P=MD) is the strategy of student affairs offices everywhere to force students into primary care (crappy IM or FM program somewhere in a crappy location).

Lastly, students think that they can use Internal Medicine or Family Medicine as a safety net. Well the popularity of IM has increased because so many AMGs, FMGs, and IMGs want IM for the fellowships. Thus the competitiveness of university-based IM programs has increased. Family Medicine programs in desirable locations are similarly competitive.

Once again, work as hard (and smart) as you can to do the best that you can do. That way you have options.

Good luck in the match!

 

[FernandoV]

This thread seems like everyone is trying to figure out exactly how much (or in some cases, how little) to do in order to become an excellent physician (or just an everyday one). You are all discussing the little bits of criteria that figure into this equation and where to, and where to not put forth your best effort. And it really doesn't make much sense to me. The way I see it, we have all chosen medicine as our career path, and I would hope that we all want to become the best physicians that we are capable of becoming using the gifts we were born with. So shouldn't it just be a given that we give our all and bust our asses to the max in every single step along the way to our goal? Why slack off in any given area? And I know people who have been through it say oh well this first and second year stuff doesn't matter and you never even see this as a doctor. Well, the way I figure it, if they are teaching it to us, there must be SOME relevance to it, and I am going to try my hardest to understand it. Sorry if this sounds like a sermon, I'm really not a spaz or anything. All I'm saying is, let's just go all out, balls to the wall. And, hey, even if your best effort isn't AOA-worthy or you don't get that derm residency, at least you know you gave all you could and are the best physician you could possibly become with the tools you have. What the hell do we have to lose? In my opinion, doing any less would be cheating ourselves out of our ultimate potential and subjecting our future patients to medical care that could possibly be better. That is all....

 

[Blake]

I like the way you think, FernandoV 👍

 

[automaton]

i see what you're saying fernando valenzuela, but it's not that simple. medical students have no f*cking weekends, barely get any breaks, and have to be "ON" almost all the time. so it's not like people are going fishing 5 days a week and trying to cram for two days before the exam. what you call "slacking off" i call trying to carve out a small part of your life for something other than the all-consuming task of medical school.

additionally, given that you have to work so damn hard all the time, when you're faced with low yield crap, you'd have to have some level 9 blackbelt mental stamina to force yourself to work your ass off for such a small return. if you think knowing all the steps in the cellular signalling cascade or memorizing the krebs cycle or whatever other random crap will help you become a better physician, you'd be pretty wrong. understand that some test questions exist solely to separate grade distributions, not because it's "important".

i'm sure you can imagine that if there are time constraints, you have to make choices in things you need to study more than another. similarly, it's like this with medical school stuff and non-medical school stuff. medical school is like a fourth year struggle to maintain sanity, optimism, self-confidence, and relationships with family, friends, and the world around you. some people can get by with putting all their chips into medical school. others cannot. it's a balance that is different for every student, and going all out isn't in the best long term interest of every student.

again, i can see your point and it's generally a good attitude to have. i agree that trying to do as little as possible and still pass/honor/go derm is not a good attitude, but i also think going all out all the time for everything is not the best approach for everyone.

 

[care bear]

This thread seems like everyone is trying to figure out exactly how much (or in some cases, how little) to do in order to become an excellent physician (or just an everyday one). You are all discussing the little bits of criteria that figure into this equation and where to, and where to not put forth your best effort. And it really doesn't make much sense to me. The way I see it, we have all chosen medicine as our career path, and I would hope that we all want to become the best physicians that we are capable of becoming using the gifts we were born with. So shouldn't it just be a given that we give our all and bust our asses to the max in every single step along the way to our goal? Why slack off in any given area? And I know people who have been through it say oh well this first and second year stuff doesn't matter and you never even see this as a doctor. Well, the way I figure it, if they are teaching it to us, there must be SOME relevance to it, and I am going to try my hardest to understand it. Sorry if this sounds like a sermon, I'm really not a spaz or anything. All I'm saying is, let's just go all out, balls to the wall. And, hey, even if your best effort isn't AOA-worthy or you don't get that derm residency, at least you know you gave all you could and are the best physician you could possibly become with the tools you have. What the hell do we have to lose? In my opinion, doing any less would be cheating ourselves out of our ultimate potential and subjecting our future patients to medical care that could possibly be better. That is all....

well, that's your perspective, but it isn't everyone's. i respect your perspective but i don't neccesarily agree. because any time someone goes 'all out' in any aspect of their lives, something else neccesarily suffers. if i 'bust my ass to the max' (your quote 🙂 ) trying to learn every detail of first year med school, my relationships are prone to suffer. my mental health is prone to suffer. i guess coming from a home, like many people, where my dad was always a workaholic and my mom became one when she went back to work, i just see how it really is a zero-sum game in many respects. don't get me wrong, they're still married and very content. but their life is not the life i want. and if i mistakenly think i can give my absolute best to everything i put my hand to, particularly career, i feel that their life is a life i would be headed towards. and i don't want that. i want BALANCE. i am guessing i am not the only med student who feels this way.

edit: hehe, good- i see i'm not the only med student who feels this way. i was posting at the same time as automaton 🙂

 

[FernandoV]

To Automaton: I am not saying to "put all your chips" into medical school. All I'm saying is to give it the best shot you've got with what you've got to work with--and that may come at the price of sacrificing weekends with family and friends here and there (but not all the time). All I'm saying is just MAKE THE MOST OF YOUR TIME and have a PROACTIVE attitude. Thinking all day about how much mindless minutia you have to learn and how little free time you have (although both very true things) is not going to make the road any easier. Just suck it up and get it done. And, at the end of the day (or week), when you feel as though you've maxed yourself out mentally, then enjoy yourself (as I usually do).​

To Carebear: First of all, I never said to memorize every little detail of first year. I only said to put your abilities to the test and try your hardest. If the end result of that is memorzing a ton (or all) of the details, congratulations. If not, at least you know you did all you could. Secondly, in terms of becoming a workaholic, all i have to say is, maybe if you work really hard now (maybe even to the point of being a workaholic), your life later on as a physician might not be all that bad and you may be able to achieve the BALANCE that you spoke of. I'd say a few years now of UNBALANCE is definitely worth a lifetime of BALANCE....​

 

[Discobolus]

Unfortunately a lot of people on these boards probably would consider them "crappy towns." Of course these are the same people that think the only part of the United States that counts is the East coast and the West coast. How did you like the UAMS program? Yeah, I've live in one of those towns that people probably think is crappy.

I don't know, man. I have crappy grades and a low class rank (96 out of 103) but I have interviewed for Emergency Medicine at, among other places, Baton Rouge, El Paso, Temple (Texas), West Viginia, Little Rock, and Omaha.

These are hardly crappy towns. Some of them are quite large and cosmopolitan. (El Paso, Omaha, etc.) And Emergency Medicine is not a crappy residency wherever you go. I bet you get more experience and better training in the nuts and bolts of Emergency Medicine in Baton Rouge (HIV Capitol of the United States) than you would in Boston.

 

[skypilot]

well, that's your perspective, but it isn't everyone's. i respect your perspective but i don't neccesarily agree. because any time someone goes 'all out' in any aspect of their lives, something else neccesarily suffers. if i 'bust my ass to the max' (your quote 🙂 ) trying to learn every detail of first year med school, my relationships are prone to suffer. my mental health is prone to suffer. i guess coming from a home, like many people, where my dad was always a workaholic and my mom became one when she went back to work, i just see how it really is a zero-sum game in many respects. don't get me wrong, they're still married and very content. but their life is not the life i want. and if i mistakenly think i can give my absolute best to everything i put my hand to, particularly career, i feel that their life is a life i would be headed towards. and i don't want that. i want BALANCE. i am guessing i am not the only med student who feels this way.
🙂

You are definitely not the only one. The super achievers are usually unbalanced and leave a trail of broken marriages and psychiatric episodes. But they also make it into the history books.

There are ways to have a balanced life in medicine. 🙂

 

[automaton]

To Automaton: I am not saying to "put all your chips" into medical school. All I'm saying is to give it the best shot you've got with what you've got to work with--and that may come at the price of sacrificing weekends with family and friends here and there (but not all the time). All I'm saying is just MAKE THE MOST OF YOUR TIME and have a PROACTIVE attitude. Thinking all day about how much mindless minutia you have to learn and how little free time you have (although both very true things) is not going to make the road any easier. Just suck it up and get it done. And, at the end of the day (or week), when you feel as though you've maxed yourself out mentally, then enjoy yourself (as I usually do).​

To Carebear: First of all, I never said to memorize every little detail of first year. I only said to put your abilities to the test and try your hardest. If the end result of that is memorzing a ton (or all) of the details, congratulations. If not, at least you know you did all you could. Secondly, in terms of becoming a workaholic, all i have to say is, maybe if you work really hard now (maybe even to the point of being a workaholic), your life later on as a physician might not be all that bad and you may be able to achieve the BALANCE that you spoke of. I'd say a few years now of UNBALANCE is definitely worth a lifetime of BALANCE....​

very good points. i agree with you in spirit, but too lazy to agree with you in practice. 🙂 btw when i was talking about balance and stuff, i meant other people. i personally really don't have an excuse, i'm just lazy, i'll admit it.

 

[monstermatch]

All this crap about grades, rank & prestiege is just a big sausage contest. Get a life people - all that matters is that you take good care of your patients and you're happy with your career.

 

[Bo Hurley]

All this crap about grades, rank & prestiege is just a big sausage contest. Get a life people - all that matters is that you take good care of your patients and you're happy with your career.

End of thread

 

[Rod Farva]

At the end of the day, it's still a job. I'm not going to let my job dominate the rest of my life.... if you guys want to spend all your time studying and whining about how noble you are, go for it, I'll be on the golf course, or on the beach, or any number of other places med students/residents/doctors aren't allowed to be because we should be spending our time maximizing patient care. Get over yourselves.

 

[thackl]

I’m surprised no one has brought up the geniuses with 4.0’s and 265 step scores that go into derm so they can make $250k for popping pimples 30hrs a week. Not everybody’s motivation for getting good grades is in the name of being the ‘greatest Dr they can’.

 

[Dr Who]

I just wanted to clarify some points for all of you.
When I started this thread I had no intention of implying that the C=MD mentality is a formula for slackers, nor was it my intention to state that it was a way to rationalize bad work ethics.
I guess I am not like most med students in that I refuse to base my happiness and personal contentment on some f**king grade. The reason I decided on medicine as a career choice was that I know I can have the potential to be a very good physician, and that I can make a difference. Grades in my opinion cannot measure that quality. They can on the other hand say that I am good at taking tests, but that has nothing say about my potential quality as a doctor. I personally know many bright and qualified people, some who I consider brilliant, who bombed on the MCATs. Who is to say that they, given the opportunity that you and I have been given would not have made better doctors than you and me.
The last time I read, the greatest scientist of the 20th century, Albert Einstein was an F student in high school and a college dropout. As you can tell I am not a great believer in our current grading system because I does not, cannot measure what really counts, our true potential.
So when I state I believe in the C=MD philosophy I never meant it as a way of excusing mediocity. As I begin my carrer in med school I know I will be proud in all my accomplishments. So what if I dont get straight A's or if I dont get into the most competitive residency. I tried my best and thats what counts, so if I get a C I will respect it as much as an A because I know I busted my ass for it. I know I will be a good physician and in the end, thats what really matters.

 

[8744]

Unfortunately a lot of people on these boards probably would consider them "crappy towns." Of course these are the same people that think the only part of the United States that counts is the East coast and the West coast. How did you like the UAMS program? Yeah, I've live in one of those towns that people probably think is crappy.

A few Random Thoughts:

1. About the UAMS program, the only drawback to their program is the number of non-emergency department rotations they do in their intern year. I believe they have three ED months and the rest off-service rotations. Holy crap. If I'd wanted to be a medicine intern I would have tried to match in medicine. By contrast, at El Paso they do seven months of Emergency medicine in their intern year. The only program where I interviewed that was worse than UAMS from that point of view was Shreveport which has only two, count 'em, ED months in first year with the rest of the rotations as low-cost slaves to various other services including our excerable medicine department. (Lots and lots of pointless rounding) Not to mention that Shreveport has no benefits whatsoever. Not even health insurance for the resident let alone his family. And while most of the salaries are roughly the same, Shreveport is on the low end of the range. (About 37K) Heck, Omaha was 41K for a PGY-1 with pretty good benefits.

Oh, and they will absolutely not allow moonlighting at Shreveport which is almost a deal-breaker for me. (Three kids, five dogs, they all have to eat.)

2. I do not want to take call. I don't mind working long hours but when I am off I like to be off, not hanging around in some semi-employed state. At Baton Rouge in the entire three year program you only have one call month.

3. I am ranking Baton Rouge number one. Not only do I like the staff and residents but because EKL (Earl K. Long) is charity hospital with no in-house surgery department, you get a much better trauma experience than at UAMS where you are competing with all kinds of residents for procedures and experience. Plus EKL is in a crappy part of town in one of those reputatedly crappy cities so they get a lot of freakish patients which I also enjoy.

4. I didn't interview at any program where I got bad vibes or where the residents didn't seem happy. That's the problem. I liked every program where I interviewed. Sometimes it really does come down to geography, cost of living, and other non-medical factors. Hell, I bet people who rank programs exclusivly by academic criteria are the exception.

PM me if you want any specific information about my interview experiences at any of these programs.

 

[Espion]

A few Random Thoughts: ...

Woo-hoo! El Paso!

 

[azzarah]

I was wondering what most of you think of C=MD or its cousin P=MD? Is it a formula for mediocre doctors or is it valid? It should be noted that all of us worked hard just to get into medical school.
Some of us study our a**es off and still get by with B's and C's. I imagine all med schools have their gunners, who will nat be satisfied with anything lower than an A, but most of us study just to survive the first two years.
In your opinion, is there any shame in the C=MD philosophy?

i think if you are capable of getting higher than a C dont settle for less! 😀

 

[thackl]

The law of diminishing returns applies to studying as well. If you don't have down time and time for things you enjoy, the studying will become ineffective.

 

[8744]

Woo-hoo! El Paso!

I really liked El Paso. I'll probably rank them number two.

I have the NRMP Rank Order List open in another window and I am thinking...

 

[LuckyMD2b]

DO NOT SETTLE for mediocrity. Settling for mediocrity (P=MD) is the strategy of student affairs offices everywhere to force students into primary care (crappy IM or FM program somewhere in a crappy location).

Lastly, students think that they can use Internal Medicine or Family Medicine as a safety net.

First off by definition, never can more than half of the people do better than mediocrity. Therefore settling for it is something that most people learn to do before junior high school. Those who make it to medical school never had to settle for being average until they get to medical school (unless you consider the non-academic arenas like looks or athleticism; where we are over-represented in the tail end of the Gaussian distribution)

Second I find that your implication that MD's that do primary care in underserved/undesireable/ "crappy" locations are in essence slackers, is a dangerously ubiquitous epidemic in medical education today. The sentiments you have expressed are one of the many factors contributing to the dispartities that exist in the American healthcare system. Preventing some of the brightest and hardest working medical students from serving in the places where they are needed the most.

And contrary to what my political affiliation may otherwise indicate. I am cognizant of the fact that many of these locations don't exist on either of the two coasts. And unlike members of the majority, I feel that it isn't addressed enough and that more should be done about it.

 

[MD'05]

Second I find that your implication that MD's that do primary care in underserved/undesireable/ "crappy" locations are in essence slackers, is a dangerously ubiquitous epidemic in medical education today.

The sentiments you have expressed are one of the many factors contributing to the dispartities that exist in the American healthcare system.

Preventing some of the brightest and hardest working medical students from serving in the places where they are needed the most.

What prevents the brightest and hardest working medical students from pursuing primary care in these underserved areas are:

1. Boredom
2. Lack of reimbursements
3. Location

 

[Dr Who]

What prevents the brightest and hardest working medical students from pursuing primary care in these underserved areas are:

1. Boredom
2. Lack of reimbursements
3. Location

I really feel bad for those of you that think this way. Those of us that think of medicine only in terms of financial gain and prestige miss the point of what medicine is truly about. Doctors are universally admired because of what they represent, some of us are a bit confused as to what that is.
So if I have the priveledge os someday serving in an underserved population I will do it with my head held up high. You can be content earning big $$$ popping pimples or doing breast implants for rich teenagers, but I will be satisfied knowing that I am making a difference wherever I am and hopefully making someone else's day that much brighter.

 

[MD'05]

So if I have the priveledge os someday serving in an underserved population I will do it with my head held up high. .

That's admirable and I am glad for you. You must be born of money. I myself have about $300K in loans to pay off.

 

[monstermatch]

Rural FP docs make some gooood money, not sure who's telling you otherwise. Its pretty easy to understand why they do - its called the supply/demand curve. Factor in low cost of living and its got its attractions.

'course thats not what i'll be doing - city boy here.

 

[2112_rush]

I really feel bad for those of you that think this way. Those of us that think of medicine only in terms of financial gain and prestige miss the point of what medicine is truly about. Doctors are universally admired because of what they represent, some of us are a bit confused as to what that is.
So if I have the priveledge os someday serving in an underserved population I will do it with my head held up high. You can be content earning big $$$ popping pimples or doing breast implants for rich teenagers, but I will be satisfied knowing that I am making a difference wherever I am and hopefully making someone else's day that much brighter.

I agree with you that we should not be so concerned with money, but there are other reasons a physician may not want to practice in a rural area. First of all, there's a sense of professional isolation when you don't have alot of physician peers around. Alot of rural areas have bad educational systems. This might put some physicians off from moving there because they value education and want their kids to get a good one. And then some people just don't like living in the country and want the stimulation a city provides.

 

[Dr.Evil1]

I just think that it is funny that the two simultaneous posts (by automaton and care bear) stating that getting Cs is not slacking failed to use capital letters to start their sentences. Talk about lazy. 😀

Its all about fit here. I did good first two years of med school. I worked hard but could have done more and probably been AOA if I would have studied more. I did about national mean on Step 1. The funny thing is that I am good friends with a bunch of the AOA students at my school. If you were to ask them about me they would say that I am laid back and not stressed out about studying all the time. I just am not happy being stressed out all the time. I couldn't match into a top IM program if I wanted. I couldn't do derm, optho, ortho, or ENT. The thing is that I didn't really want to though. I wanted to do EM and I am very competitive for EM. I am getting all the interviews that I wanted. If I wanted to be in a competitive residency then I couldn't have accepted that P=MD because then I wouldn't have been the MD that I wanted. Don't fault the student that dreams of ortho for being a "gunner", they have to do that to match. Also don't fault the student that spends more time volunteering etc for getting Cs if they want to go into a FP residency and focus on public health.

This is a fun thread.

 

[8744]

I just think that it is funny that the two simultaneous posts (by automaton and care bear) stating that getting Cs is not slacking failed to use capital letters to start their sentences. Talk about lazy. 😀

Its all about fit here. I did good first two years of med school. I worked hard but could have done more and probably been AOA if I would have studied more. I did about national mean on Step 1. The funny thing is that I am good friends with a bunch of the AOA students at my school. If you were to ask them about me they would say that I am laid back and not stressed out about studying all the time. I just am not happy being stressed out all the time. I couldn't match into a top IM program if I wanted. I couldn't do derm, optho, ortho, or ENT. The thing is that I didn't really want to though. I wanted to do EM and I am very competitive for EM. I am getting all the interviews that I wanted. If I wanted to be in a competitive residency then I couldn't have accepted that P=MD because then I wouldn't have been the MD that I wanted. Don't fault the student that dreams of ortho for being a "gunner", they have to do that to match. Also don't fault the student that spends more time volunteering etc for getting Cs if they want to go into a FP residency and focus on public health.

This is a fun thread.

If you don't mind my asking, where have you interviewed for Emergency Medicine? I have interviewed at:

Baton Rouge
Shreveport
El Paso
Temple, Texas
Morgantown, West Virginia
Little Rock
Omaha

I just want to point out that FPs who want to work in rural areas can make a lot of money. If you, hypothetically, were to set up a family practice clinic in Dubach, Louisiana (A suberb of Bum****) you would have more patients than you knew what to do with and a very low cost of living to boot. I believe medicaid reimburses at a substantially higher rate in "underserved areas."

Conversly, if you go somewhere where FPs are a dime a dozen you will make much less.